Plankwell and Kokirrak

[Carlobrand]

If they are building that many in the sector per year I'd have the IN set up production at dedicated Depot/ship yards that are NOT civilian. They can forecast production and bring in needed personnel on contract. It would not be that bright to try and get shipyards at civvie starports to carry that load. If for no other reason than security and secrecy.

I agree that the builders making Navy warships are most likely specialized military builders. They have to deal with armor and specialized weapons and defenses that a civilian builder would never need to work with. I presume a civvie shipyard would be more than happy to make an unarmored transport or tanker if it had capacity laying idle, and I don't see any reason the Imperium couldn't farm out contracts for its little workboats to B ports in order to stimulate those economies, but I presume the warships are built by builders skilled in warship construction.

We know where the depots are. There are 19 serving the major sectors. Some sectors, like Spinward Marches and Verge, do not have a depot. Delphi gets two, which is odd considering the size of the sector and the lack of an obvious enemy of significance. Depots are described in MT as being for maintenance "and even construction," which to me implies that they do it but that it's not a primary role. I would have expected them to play up the construction role more if they were at the center of the fleet's shipbuilding program.

AHL tells us it took only about 2 1/2 years to complete a Lightning class cruiser, which highlights that I forgot about the 40% reduction in time for building ships of a class. At 25 ships per year per sector average, that changes the figure to about 60-ish ships under construction at any one time in any given sector.

We know of 21 builders from AHL. Some, like Clan Severn and Yard 17, were also mentioned as building the little Kinunir. However, there are two yards mentioned in Kinunir that did not participate in production of the AHLs: Mars and General. It's possible those companies didn't exist when the AHLs were being produced, or their yards weren't able to handle ships in that size range.

We do not know where those builders did their work, except that the Duke of Regina worked a deal to get some of the production done in the Marches, which does not have a Depot; those were built by Ling Standard. Most of the builders made multiple ships, with the start of the next ship not occurring until after the completion of the previous one, usually within days, implying their full resources were involved in the construction of the ship. Three builders either were not given the opportunity to build more than one or decided to forego the opportunity.

Some of these builders seem to represent one corporation with several sites: Gashidda 1, 2, and 3, for example. Those sites may be in different systems or all in the same system, we don't know; there may be legal or organizational advantages in having a corporation use a distinct subsidiary for each slipway. There may be more than one corporation in a given system; again, we don't know. It's clear, given that these 21 builders supposedly represent builders across the Imperium and that there's something like 1200 ships under construction at any one time across the Imperium, that these represent only a small sample of the builders doing work out there.

It is possible that all these builders are doing work at the Depots, but it strikes me as more likely that they're working around worlds that have the technological and industrial base to provide them with the tools and construction equipment they need for the work. A lot of these Depot worlds - most of them - seem to lack that infrastructure; everything is Imperial Navy and in deep space (where they don't appear to get counted toward the local population), and their primary worlds don't seem to be much more than R&R spots. My guess then is that the major Navy shipbuilders are located at the major A ports, places like Trin and Mora, Rhylanor and Glisten, perhaps Palique, Efate and Lunion if the Imperium gets auxiliaries built at lower tech.

An interesting point is Kinunir, constructed at Regina (now TL12) using Book-2 construction and then revised to High Guard specs, is rated at TL15 and includes features such as a TL13 jump drive (by errata), a TL15 power plant (same), a TL14 nuclear damper, a TL13 computer, TL15 particle beam turrets, black globe generators (TL15), and by the errata TL13 missile systems and x-ray laser turrets. The ship is unarmored, so no saying whether that's an issue or not, but it's pretty clear from the example that importing major equipment for ship construction is not an issue with at least the escort-size ships.

 

[rancke]

I agree that the builders making Navy warships are most likely specialized military builders.

They're military contractors. Civilian companies that manufacture military equipment. Going by contemporary Western military practice¹, the builders are most UNlikely to be regular Navy. It's not the Navy's business to build ships (Which is why Depots build prototypes and only get pressed into regular building in times of crisis).

¹ Which I acknowledge may not apply to the Imperium.​

They have to deal with armor and specialized weapons and defenses that a civilian builder would never need to work with. I presume a civvie shipyard would be more than happy to make an unarmored transport or tanker if it had capacity laying idle, and I don't see any reason the Imperium couldn't farm out contracts for its little workboats to B ports in order to stimulate those economies, but I presume the warships are built by builders skilled in warship construction.

Civilian builders skilled in warship construction.

We know where the depots are. There are 19 serving the major sectors. Some sectors, like Spinward Marches and Verge, do not have a depot. Delphi gets two, which is odd considering the size of the sector and the lack of an obvious enemy of significance. Depots are described in MT as being for maintenance "and even construction," which to me implies that they do it but that it's not a primary role. I would have expected them to play up the construction role more if they were at the center of the fleet's shipbuilding program.

"Though capable of repair and maintenance, the [Naval] depot's main function in peace is the testing and design² of prototype ships. The design staff is the cream of the naval architects in the area, and they constantly strive to produce efficient ships³, given always the constraints of budget, time, technology, and bureaucratic supervision. Prototypes may be built at the depot prior to the letting of final construction contracts. In time of war, the depot's construction yards are often pressed into service for the production of military ships." [FS:7]​

² Presumably not necessarily in that order.

³ :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:​

AHL tells us it took only about 2 1/2 years to complete a Lightning class cruiser, which highlights that I forgot about the 40% reduction in time for building ships of a class.

Good point.

(Is it 40%? I thought it was 20.)

At 25 ships per year per sector average, that changes the figure to about 60-ish ships under construction at any one time in any given sector.

It's presumably proportionate to the total population on TL15 worlds in the sector, so more in some sectors and less in others.

We know of 21 builders from AHL. Some, like Clan Severn and Yard 17, were also mentioned as building the little Kinunir. However, there are two yards mentioned in Kinunir that did not participate in production of the AHLs: Mars and General.

And GSB, AG.

It's possible those companies didn't exist when the AHLs were being produced, or their yards weren't able to handle ships in that size range.

It's even more possible that thousands of shipyards across the Imperium were building other ships than AHLs at the time. At our assumed replacement rate of 2.5%, 500 new combat vessels are laid down each year. Assuming an average building time of 3 years (just a guesstimate), we have 1,500 vessels of 20,000+ dT under construction at any one time. Add to that the replacements for whatever number of escorts you believe the IN has.

For my (non-canon) work on Tigresses I've decided on 30 'slips' initially, although I plan on introducing some irregularity along the way. So far I've come up with names and locations for 20, none of them the same as the ones that built AHLs.

We do not know where those builders did their work, except that the Duke of Regina worked a deal to get some of the production done in the Marches, which does not have a Depot; those were built by Ling Standard.

I'm more inclined to believe that it was Clan Severn. 'Ling Standard' is more likely to be a catch-all for all of LSP's shipyards. The contract is awarded to LSP in general and it has the ships built wherever it has the capacity. Clan Severn, OTOH, is specifically placed on Rhylanor.

Most of the builders made multiple ships, with the start of the next ship not occurring until after the completion of the previous one, usually within days, implying their full resources were involved in the construction of the ship.

My take is that a shipyard 'slip' is a full construction team plus all necessary equipment. They start on a ship, finish it, and beging on the next. It could also be a physical place, but I don't see ship in orbit being constrained by needing a dock. It does need a team of workers, though. YMMV.

Anyway, whatever it is, Gashidda had three (or more), Vlandian had two (or more), etc. Yard 16 had at least four, of which the first three were not building AHLs.


Hans

 

[HG_B]

They're military contractors. Civilian companies that manufacture military equipment. Going by contemporary Western military practice¹,
Hans

Given that the 3I is a form of empire dictatorship it may follow more along the lines of the old USSR or China in this regard. In Western mil practice the Navy doesn't even build ship prototypes. Why? Because it is best to to have the same organization build both as the experience is crucial to transfer intact to the post prototype manufacturing line...

 

[Carlobrand]

They're military contractors. ...

Yup, that's what I meant. Poor word choice; sorry.

...

"Though capable of repair and maintenance, the [Naval] depot's main function in peace is the testing and design² of prototype ships. The design staff is the cream of the naval architects in the area, and they constantly strive to produce efficient ships³, given always the constraints of budget, time, technology, and bureaucratic supervision. ..." ​

³ :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

One wonders if the cream of the naval architects ever actually talk to the folk getting shot at.

... Good point.

(Is it 40%? I thought it was 20.) ...

Depends on source. 40% quicker in TCS, 20% quicker in MegaTrav. MegaTrav's probably a better source for canon economic/industrial issues.

...It's presumably proportionate to the total population on TL15 worlds in the sector, so more in some sectors and less in others. ...

That presumes they're selectively constructing at TL15 worlds. I'd argue that we should exclude the smaller TL15 worlds but they're barely a drop in the bucket against the pops of those big worlds, so no reason to get complicated when we're just figuring proportions. However, for identifying specific shipyard locations, I don't think a world with a pop the size of Las Cruces is going to be building dreadnoughts.

If we're assuming the IN is issuing contracts for auxiliaries to TL10-14 worlds, that spreads things out a bit more, but not as much as one would think. Regardless of tech level, there don't tend to be a whole lotta worlds in any given sector with the pop and industrial base to support construction of ships in the 50,000 dTon range and above. There are a whole lot more that can construct Kinunirs and Chrysanthemums than can construct Tigresses.

...And GSB, AG. ...

Whups, missed them.

...It's even more possible that thousands of shipyards across the Imperium were building other ships than AHLs at the time. At our assumed replacement rate of 2.5%, 500 new combat vessels are laid down each year. Assuming an average building time of 3 years (just a guesstimate), we have 1,500 vessels of 20,000+ dT under construction at any one time. Add to that the replacements for whatever number of escorts you believe the IN has. ...

Well, yes. I was talking about why those two specific builders didn't show up among the recipients of AHL contracts: the ship predates them, or their yards were too small. We know General could only handle ships up to 5000 dT, but you're right: Mars might have been busy building other warships. It is not only possible but very likely that thousands of shipyards across the Imperium were building other ships, given that - as you say - an average 500 new keels are laid down annually, they take about 3 years to complete, and AHL introduces us to at most 20 in any given year. By that, AHL production represents at most only 4% of the total construction done during its run. Therefore, the 21 companies represented reflect only about 4% of the companies out there engaged in capital shipbuilding.

...I'm more inclined to believe that it was Clan Severn. 'Ling Standard' is more likely to be a catch-all for all of LSP's shipyards. The contract is awarded to LSP in general and it has the ships built wherever it has the capacity. Clan Severn, OTOH, is specifically placed on Rhylanor. ...

I didn't know that about Clan Severn. Where is that from? Are they owned by LSP?

Thing is, AHL separately identifies Ling and Clan as builders of specific ships. Ling produced Vengeance, Children of the March, Imperial Sabreur, Avenging Gainful, and Minatory Periant. (I swear they must have used a random word search.) As with the other identified builders, Ling didn't start the next one until the previous one was completed and launched, indicating the Ling reference speaks to one slipway. At the same time, Clan Severn constructed Venomous Observer, Reverie Indigo, Sparkling Distress, Muffled Phosphor, and Reverie Indigo Echo, again with dates suggesting only one slipway is in use. While it's possible Clan Severn is a Ling subsidiary, it's clear that Clan is busy building Reverie Indigo at the time Ling is producing Children of the March.

That is interesting because, if Clan Severn is based at Rhylanor, that means the "contract to produce a portion of the total run" mentioned in the Children of the March blurb was divided between two contractors.

...My take is that a shipyard 'slip' is a full construction team plus all necessary equipment. They start on a ship, finish it, and beging on the next. It could also be a physical place, but I don't see ship in orbit being constrained by needing a dock. It does need a team of workers, though. YMMV. ...

Depends. Zero-G offers advantages, but working in a vacc suit is a pain. "Slip" is certainly an archaism, but there might be advantage in working in an enclosure where you can put atmosphere around a ship or part of a ship. Even if it's an inert atmosphere (which might be used to minimize fire risk or protect certain components from oxidation), it would offer certain advantages to personnel working outside of construction vehicles. Also offers a bit more protection from orbital debris and solar flares. The enclosure might be permanent or might be rigged up specifically to construct a ship and then taken apart once the ship is complete.

...Anyway, whatever it is, Gashidda had three (or more), Vlandian had two (or more), etc. Yard 16 had at least four, of which the first three were not building AHLs. ...

I don't see a reason to mention "No. 1," "No. 2" and so forth as individual builders unless for some reason those units were being treated by the Imperium as distinct entities. There's no reason they couldn't have just said, "Gashidda" and then had overlapping dates making it clear that Gashidda was capable of producing multiple hulls at one time. I'm working on the hypothesis that it's some sort of legal fiction: one company with several wholly owned subsidiaries incorporated as distinct corporations in order to limit liability or something.

 

[rancke]

...It's presumably proportionate to the total population on TL15 worlds in the sector, so more in some sectors and less in others. ...

That presumes they're selectively constructing at TL15 worlds. I'd argue that we should exclude the smaller TL15 worlds but they're barely a drop in the bucket against the pops of those big worlds, so no reason to get complicated when we're just figuring proportions. However, for identifying specific shipyard locations, I don't think a world with a pop the size of Las Cruces is going to be building dreadnoughts.

No, of course not. Obviously TL15 worlds with too small a population to run a shipyard wouldn't build any ships and those with moderate populations would build small ships. And as you say, we can presumably ignore anything smaller than pop 8 for combat vessels.

If we're assuming the IN is issuing contracts for auxiliaries to TL10-14 worlds, that spreads things out a bit more, but not as much as one would think. Regardless of tech level, there don't tend to be a whole lotta worlds in any given sector with the pop and industrial base to support construction of ships in the 50,000 dTon range and above. There are a whole lot more that can construct Kinunirs and Chrysanthemums than can construct Tigresses.

There will be enough shipyards capable of building battleships to build the battleships that the Imperium wants to build.

Well, yes. I was talking about why those two specific builders didn't show up among the recipients of AHL contracts: the ship predates them, or their yards were too small.

And I'm saying that there's no mystery. There are more shipyards capable of building AHLs than there were contracts to give out. If anything, it's a bit of a coincidence that there's an overlap with the list of Kinunir builders.

We know General could only handle ships up to 5000 dT...

That depends on which canonical statement we elect to believe: The one that mentions the 5,000T figure or the one that says GS is one of the biggest starship builders in the Marches. Pick one. If it's only capable of building 5000T ships then it's not a major builder; if it's a major builder it is capable of building much bigger ships than 5000-tonners.

I didn't know that about Clan Severn. Where is that from?

JTAS4 has a sample ship design form featuring the Unicorn. Clan Severn on Rhylanor is listed as the builder.

Are they owned by LSP?

Not to my knowledge.

Thing is, AHL separately identifies Ling and Clan as builders of specific ships. Ling produced Vengeance, Children of the March, Imperial Sabreur, Avenging Gainful, and Minatory Periant. (I swear they must have used a random word search.) As with the other identified builders, Ling didn't start the next one until the previous one was completed and launched, indicating the Ling reference speaks to one slipway.

Sure, but it beggars belief that LSP only has the one shipyard. To explain why itt is listed as a single entity, I'm suggesting that the contract is given to LSP rather than to a specific shipyard. As for LSP using a single one of its shipyards, I think that the 20% reduction in cost only apply to the second and subsequesnt ships built by the same construction crew. LSP could have built at different yards, but that would have cost them money.

At the same time, Clan Severn constructed Venomous Observer, Reverie Indigo, Sparkling Distress, Muffled Phosphor, and Reverie Indigo Echo, again with dates suggesting only one slipway is in use. While it's possible Clan Severn is a Ling subsidiary, it's clear that Clan is busy building Reverie Indigo at the time Ling is producing Children of the March.

I don't understand where you get the Clan Severn is a subsidiary of anyone theory.

That is interesting because, if Clan Severn is based at Rhylanor, that means the "contract to produce a portion of the total run" mentioned in the Children of the March blurb was divided between two contractors.

Assuming (as I do) that the Kinunirs are all built in the Marches, Yard 17 is also located there.

I don't see a reason to mention "No. 1," "No. 2" and so forth as individual builders unless for some reason those units were being treated by the Imperium as distinct entities. There's no reason they couldn't have just said, "Gashidda" and then had overlapping dates making it clear that Gashidda was capable of producing multiple hulls at one time.

There's no reason why they should, though.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

... If anything, it's a bit of a coincidence that there's an overlap with the list of Kinunir builders. ...

A very interesting point. If we're speculating that the list represents maybe 4-ish percent of the builders, then that degree of overlap is quite an extreme coincidence.

... That depends on which canonical statement we elect to believe: The one that mentions the 5,000T figure or the one that says GS is one of the biggest starship builders in the Marches. Pick one. If it's only capable of building 5000T ships then it's not a major builder; if it's a major builder it is capable of building much bigger ships than 5000-tonners. ...

Also a good point. Kinunir was a battlecruiser of the small ship universe, where 5000 dT was as big as you could build. If we introduce the big ship universe, they should be capable of quite a bit more.

... JTAS4 has a sample ship design form featuring the Unicorn. Clan Severn on Rhylanor is listed as the builder. ...

Ah. Thanks.

...Sure, but it beggars belief that LSP only has the one shipyard. ...

It does indeed, especially since the other ones are (name) No. 1 and so forth. Given the amount of shipbuilding going on and their size, I'd have to suspect there was more than one LSP yard/slip.

...To explain why itt is listed as a single entity, I'm suggesting that the contract is given to LSP rather than to a specific shipyard. As for LSP using a single one of its shipyards, I think that the 20% reduction in cost only apply to the second and subsequesnt ships built by the same construction crew. LSP could have built at different yards, but that would have cost them money. ...

Interesting hypothesis, I like it, but LSP only contracted for the five ships off the one slip, while several others appear to have gone ahead and built at different yards (No. 1, No. 2, and so forth) to grab more of the contract. They clearly saw it as profitable to do that.

If I understand, you're suggesting LSP took the contract but subcontracted to Clan Severn. But that leaves LSP building nothing and Clan Severn building two at a time. Am I not understanding?

...I don't understand where you get the Clan Severn is a subsidiary of anyone theory. ...

Sorry. Maybe I was misunderstanding your explanation of why LSP would be the builder of record while Clan Severn was doing the work.

...Assuming (as I do) that the Kinunirs are all built in the Marches, Yard 17 is also located there. ...

Regal Splendor, built by Yard 17, was transferred to the Vegan Autonomous District 13 years after she was launched. It's not entirely impossible that her career took her from the Marches to that quarter of the Imperium, but it's more likely it was built somewhere in that region.

...There's no reason why they should, though. ...

Well, yeah. Corporations in the real world set up subsidiaries to shield themselves from legal liabilities or financial woes in the subsidiary. If the subsidiary finds itself in over its head due to a legal claim or souring economic picture, it can declare bankruptcy and only its own assets will be involved in the proceeding. It limits the exposure of the larger corporation.

 

[Hyphen]

Assuming (as I do) that the Kinunirs are all built in the Marches, Yard 17 is also located there.

Glisten, isn't it? Or maybe I'm mis-remembering? (Anyone have _Leviathan_ handy?)

 

[rancke]

Also a good point. Kinunir was a battlecruiser of the small ship universe, where 5000 dT was as big as you could build. If we introduce the big ship universe, they should be capable of quite a bit more.

Um... we don't have anything to do with the choice and it was made 30-odd years ago. Nowadays the OTU is a big ship universe and it has been one since HG (that egregious grandfather clause to the contrary notwithstanding).

It does indeed, especially since the other ones are (name) No. 1 and so forth. Given the amount of shipbuilding going on and their size, I'd have to suspect there was more than one LSP yard/slip.

I'd put it stronger: There's no way LSP only has one shipyard (And if it did, it wouldn't be located in the Marches).

Interesting hypothesis, I like it, but LSP only contracted for the five ships off the one slip, while several others appear to have gone ahead and built at different yards (No. 1, No. 2, and so forth) to grab more of the contract. They clearly saw it as profitable to do that.

That's simply a question of procurement policy (how TPTB in the Admiralty allocate contracts) and that would be murky enough to explain practically any result. LSP could have lost out in a vicious bidding war with Gashidda and Vlandian or it could have gotten the contract as lagniappe in a 100-battleship deal.

If I understand, you're suggesting LSP took the contract but subcontracted to Clan Severn. But that leaves LSP building nothing and Clan Severn building two at a time. Am I not understanding?

No, I'm suggesting that the IN contracted with Ling Standard Products, LIC to build five ships at one of its several shipyards in the Marches, leaving the choice of which one to LSP and with Clan Severn Shipyards of Rhylanor to build another five ships (two different contracts).

Sorry. Maybe I was misunderstanding your explanation of why LSP would be the builder of record while Clan Severn was doing the work.

I never meant to imply any such thing. I don't understand how I gave you that impression.

Regal Splendor, built by Yard 17, was transferred to the Vegan Autonomous District 13 years after she was launched. It's not entirely impossible that her career took her from the Marches to that quarter of the Imperium, but it's more likely it was built somewhere in that region.

I have two alternate (and mutually exclusive) explanations for why the Regal Splendor wound up travelling all the way from the Marches to the Rim. One is that it was an elaborate insult from Queen Iolanthe to the Vegans, the other is that the offspring of a Vegan verybigwig served on the Regal Splendor for a while and either performed some heroic act or had his life saved; in consequence the Vegans asked for the RS and Iolanthe signed off on the request.

I can't make up my mind which one I prefer. Both are possible but improbable. I can't think of a reason why Iolanthe would want to tweak the Vegans' collective olfactory proboscis and 13 years is a bit snug to get a verybigwiggy offspring to the Marches and back and the request processed.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Glisten, isn't it? Or maybe I'm mis-remembering? (Anyone have _Leviathan_ handy?)

AFAIK the only shipyard that has been located is Clan Severn (and very obliquely too). The one in Leviathan is Bilstein Yards and that seems to be a non-military-contractor civilian shipyard.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

Um... we don't have anything to do with the choice and it was made 30-odd years ago. ...

Sure we do: Non-OTU. Any player can add or ignore what he wants in his personal preserve. Freedom is a wonderful thing. I agree though that it's big ships for the OTU as of HG-II, and reinforced in MegaTrav, and reinforced in GURPS, and as far as I know reinforced in every other version of the game since HG's release.

... (that egregious grandfather clause to the contrary notwithstanding). ...

It must be a sad thing to be an egregious grandfather.

I never meant to imply any such thing. I don't understand how I gave you that impression. ...

It went something like this:

...We do not know where those builders did their work, except that the Duke of Regina worked a deal to get some of the production done in the Marches, which does not have a Depot; those were built by Ling Standard. ...

...I'm more inclined to believe that it was Clan Severn. 'Ling Standard' is more likely to be a catch-all for all of LSP's shipyards. ...

Supplement 5 tells us, "Because the Rim War was taking place on the other side of the Imperium, the Spinward Marches had little chance of receiving a contract."

So, His Grace makes a proposal "on the condition that the Marches receive the contract to produce a portion of the total run." Ling produces Children of the Marches, financed by the Marches. Ling produces four other ships, the next starting a few days after Children of the Marches was launched, the third started a few days after that second one was launched, and so forth, and so forth. Ergo, whether or not they had more than one slip, they were using only one slip for that run, and it was the one that produced Children of the Marches, which was produced in the Marches. Ergo, Ling got the contract.

But, you were "more inclined to believe that it was Clan Severn." If Ling produced Children of the Marches, and Clan Severn produced and was credited with a part of the contract generated from the offer of Children of the Marches, then it follows that either Clan Severn was a subsidiary, Clan Severn was subcontracted, or Ling was being uncommonly nice.

Except of course that it doesn't follow. Canon tells us, "the Spinward Marches had little chance of receiving a contract," but we have at least two, maybe three and possibly up to four different builders building AHLs in the Marches (see below), clear on the other side of the Imperium from the Rim war. Quite a haul for one sector from offering a single free ship. And as far as I know, negotiating with four different companies implies four contracts. It's just another canon conflict, assuming canon says Clan Severn and the others are in the Marches.

...I have two alternate (and mutually exclusive) explanations for why the Regal Splendor wound up travelling all the way from the Marches to the Rim. ...

We also need an explanation for Bard Endeavor, the AHL built by Yard 17 and lost in the Solomani Rim War 8 years later. On the other hand, Clan Severn's Reverie Indigo was also lost in the Solomani Rim War, some 250-ish parsecs off and no more than 5 years after launch, while Clan Severn's Sparkling Distress was sold to the Oberlindes Lines in the Marches 23 years after launch. I infer that the writers weren't really paying attention to what ship went where, when they wrote their comments regarding the disposition of ships.

I don't know if Yard 17 has any relationship with Yard 16, but Yard 16's One Thousand Years made its first flight over Markatch. Problem is, there doesn't seem to be a Markatch. Closest I come is a Markassar in Vland sector, a Markasher in Core sector, and a Marach in Massilia sector.

Robject had a post on the subject, but I don't know where he got the information from.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=20281

He puts Ling, Clan Severn, and Yard 17 in the Marches. However, he also puts AHG, AG in the Marches, at TL13 Strouden. That would imply we had no less than four builders in the Marches putting out 20 of the 91 AHLs. That's quite a chunk of production for the Duke of Regina to score for one sector, on the other side of the Imperium from where war is occurring, from offering a single free ship. His Grace has impressive clout.

It's easier to put Clan Severn's Sparking Distress in the Marches from a rimward construction yard 23 years after launch than it is to put Reverie Indigo in the Rim 5 years after launch from Rhylanor. It's not impossible - takes two years at 5 parsecs per jump to cover 250 parsecs, we'd just have to assume that the Imperium for some reason built the ship to coreward and then had it spend two years heading rimward to join the war rather than calling in closer ships. It's just that it's also easier to reconcile the remark about Children of the Marches if we assume Ling received the contract and Clan Severn, Yard 17, and AHG produced ships in other sectors. If we can say Ling has more than one yard/slip/whatever, then we can say the same for Clan Severn (and the others, if we choose) and preserve their presence in Rhylanor, etc. without needing to attribute an AHL to their March facilities.

Otherwise, we're basically saying that a remote frontier sector, one of 28 Imperial sectors and two or more years travel from the war front, went from "little chance of receiving a contract" to 11% to 22% of the production run on the strength of the offer of one free ship.

 

[rancke]

Sure we do: Non-OTU.

I always assume that the discussion is about the OTU unless it is in the IMTU forum. (Truth to tell, I tend to assume the same even if it IS in the IMTU forum, but I do acknowledge that I'm mistaken when it's pointed out to me. ).

Any player can add or ignore what he wants in his personal preserve.

So he can, but I mostly don't have the time or the desire to discuss other people's TUs. I'm not a fanatic about that by any means, and I'm usually willing to help people out with specific problems, but in general I'm only interested in discussing the OTU and my own TU -- and I don't expect other people to be any more interested in spending effort on MTU than I am interested in spending effort on their TUs.

Freedom is a wonderful thing.

Not when you're working in a shared universe, which is how I see the OTU. Or rather, it's how I see fanon embroidery of the OTU.

Supplement 5 tells us, "Because the Rim War was taking place on the other side of the Imperium, the Spinward Marches had little chance of receiving a contract."

So, His Grace makes a proposal "on the condition that the Marches receive the contract to produce a portion of the total run." Ling produces Children of the Marches, financed by the Marches. Ling produces four other ships, the next starting a few days after Children of the Marches was launched, the third started a few days after that second one was launched, and so forth, and so forth. Ergo, whether or not they had more than one slip, they were using only one slip for that run, and it was the one that produced Children of the Marches, which was produced in the Marches. Ergo, Ling got the contract.

Not necessarily. It's logical to assume that Children of the Marches was built in the Marches, but it's not a given. CotM was financed by the children of the Marches. As a result, the Marches got part of the contracts. That much is certain. But CotM could have been built on Capital for all we know.

But, you were "more inclined to believe that it was Clan Severn." If Ling produced Children of the Marches, and Clan Severn produced and was credited with a part of the contract generated from the offer of Children of the Marches, then it follows that either Clan Severn was a subsidiary, Clan Severn was subcontracted, or Ling was being uncommonly nice.

Or the Marches got more than one contract (each contract being for five ships). Clan Severn got one on its own merits. Ling got one (probably). Yard 11 and Yard 17 each got one unless we can explain them away somehow.

Except of course that it doesn't follow. Canon tells us, "the Spinward Marches had little chance of receiving a contract," but we have at least two, maybe three and possibly up to four different builders building AHLs in the Marches (see below), clear on the other side of the Imperium from the Rim war. Quite a haul for one sector from offering a single free ship.

But it has to be more than a single one-ship contract if the deal is to have any benefit for the Marches. How many more is simply a matter of negotiation and might involve a lot more factors, such as the political savvy of Duke Willem, other simultaneous deals.

And as far as I know, negotiating with four different companies implies four contracts. It's just another canon conflict, assuming canon says Clan Severn and the others are in the Marches.

I don't see the problem. Duke Willem offered to pay for an extra ship and in return he got three or four contracts, 15 or 20% of the planned production run.

Incidentally, there was no extra ship. If there had been, the planned production run would have been 101. The Admiralty simply pointed to one of the ships and said "There! That's the one the children of the March paid for!"

We also need an explanation for Bard Endeavor, the AHL built by Yard 17 and lost in the Solomani Rim War 8 years later. On the other hand, Clan Severn's Reverie Indigo was also lost in the Solomani Rim War, some 250-ish parsecs off and no more than 5 years after launch...

No mystery there. The AHLs were all planned to be employed on the Rim. That's the reason why the Marches weren't going to get any of the contracts in the first place. So as soon as the Bard Endavour, the Reverie Indigo and all the other AHLs built in the Marches were finished, they got moved to the Rim as fast as possible.

...while Clan Severn's Sparkling Distress was sold to the Oberlindes Lines in the Marches 23 years after launch.

That's a mistake. The sale took place in 1049 according to other canon ([TP:45-46], AHL:41]). But in any case, the AHLs would have been redistributed after the Rim War was over. Some of them evidently all the way back to the Marches.

I infer that the writers weren't really paying attention to what ship went where, when they wrote their comments regarding the disposition of ships.

Maybe, maybe not. I can't find any clear discrepancies anyway.

I don't know if Yard 17 has any relationship with Yard 16, but Yard 16's One Thousand Years made its first flight over Markatch. Problem is, there doesn't seem to be a Markatch. Closest I come is a Markassar in Vland sector, a Markasher in Core sector, and a Marach in Massilia sector.

Two possibilities: A name change in between 1000 and 1005 or a shipyard on a secondary world.

He puts Ling, Clan Severn, and Yard 17 in the Marches.

Clan Severn is explicitly placed on Rhylanor. Ling is because he assume the CotM was built in the Marches. Yard 17 is because he assumes the Kinunirs were all built in the Marches.

However, he also puts AHG, AG in the Marches, at TL13 Strouden.

I don't know why he did that. Since the AHLs are TL14, I myself would assume that none of the yards that built AHLs were on Strouden. (Though one could assume that Strouden was advanced in Space TL).

That would imply we had no less than four builders in the Marches putting out 20 of the 91 AHLs. That's quite a chunk of production for the Duke of Regina to score for one sector, on the other side of the Imperium from where war is occurring, from offering a single free ship. His Grace has impressive clout.

Indeed he has (or had).

Otherwise, we're basically saying that a remote frontier sector, one of 28 Imperial sectors and two or more years travel from the war front, went from "little chance of receiving a contract" to 11% to 22% of the production run on the strength of the offer of one free ship.

Mora to Muan Gwi via Capital is 192 parsecs. Assuming an average jump distance of 4.5 and 9 days per jump (plus an annual maintenance), we're talking one year and 5 weeks (And you can shave a bit off the distance by bypassing Capital). Still a long time, of course.


Hans

 

[rancke]

The real mystery, if there is one, is why the contracts for 10 or 20 60,000T cruisers (over 10 years) was such a big deal, given that at any given time at peace the Imperium is building 1500 cruisers and battleships, an average of five per subsector. For wartime construction we could be talking about a lot more (assuming the Imperium gets more taxes when on a war footing).


Hans

 

[HG_B]

The real mystery, if there is one, is why the contracts for 10 or 20 60,000T cruisers (over 10 years) was such a big deal, given that at any given time at peace the Imperium is building 1500 cruisers and battleships, an average of five per subsector. For wartime construction we could be talking about a lot more (assuming the Imperium gets more taxes when on a war footing).


Hans

That's ENOUGH logic for today. Thank you very much.

 

[rancke]

That's ENOUGH logic for today. Thank you very much.

Oh, all right. Time I went to bed anyway. See you tomorrow.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

...Not necessarily. It's logical to assume that Children of the Marches was built in the Marches, but it's not a given. CotM was financed by the children of the Marches. As a result, the Marches got part of the contracts. That much is certain. But CotM could have been built on Capital for all we know. ...

It could have been. It could have been built anywhere, as you suggest. And if we are strongly motivated to eliminate Ling as a candidate so that we can put forth another candidate we prefer - say, Clan Severn - then we can take that view. However, unless there is some strong reason in canon to eliminate Ling as a candidate, I think the straightforward assumption is adequate.

...Or the Marches got more than one contract (each contract being for five ships). Clan Severn got one on its own merits. Ling got one (probably). Yard 11 and Yard 17 each got one unless we can explain them away somehow. ...

In other words, the Marches went from "little chance of receiving a contract" to 22% of the run on the strength of the offer to pay for one ship made by a frontier duke, and the assorted nobility of 20-some other sectors closer to the throne lacked the pull to do better. The IN had ships built in a frontier sector and then took a couple years - or a year and 5 weeks with two days between jumps instead of the usual seven - flying some of them down to the Rim War rather than having them built where they could be of more immediate use.

Again, if we are strongly motivated to see other March builders making AHLs, we can take that view. Politics and influence do strange things; it is within the realm of possibility. However, if we have no such agenda, then a more conservative view would be that the Marches scored one contract, that those ships served the Marches, and that the ships described as engaged in the Rim War were built where they could be moved up without a year or two's wait to get there.

...But it has to be more than a single one-ship contract if the deal is to have any benefit for the Marches. ...

It was a five-ship contract. 171 billion credits, of which 34 billion came from the Marches and 137 billion came in from elsewhere. Kept a yard busy for 14 years. 12.2 billion credits a year for 14 years is not much against a sector's overall economy, nor even against the economy of a major world, but it's still a whole lotta salaries, processed metals, manufactured equipment, and what-have-you. A nice profit for the company that wins the contract, and a reason for them to owe a favor or two to the duke that won it for them.

... I don't see the problem. Duke Willem offered to pay for an extra ship and in return he got three or four contracts, 15 or 20% of the planned production run. ... The AHLs were all planned to be employed on the Rim. That's the reason why the Marches weren't going to get any of the contracts in the first place. So as soon as the Bard Endavour, the Reverie Indigo and all the other AHLs built in the Marches were finished, they got moved to the Rim as fast as possible. ...

Once more, politics and influence do strange things. It's not unreasonable. It's just that unless we have a specific agenda or there's some specific piece of canon that we have to accommodate, there's no reason to invoke strange things. I don't have such an agenda, and I don't know of a piece of canon that requires such rationalization to accommodate, so I see no reason to have the IN building ships a year or two away from the site of war to please a frontier duke far from the throne who is only one among gods-alone-know how many other dukes all pulling for their own interests.

... Incidentally, there was no extra ship. ...

I don't recall saying "extra". Did I give that impression? My apologies.

...Mora to Muan Gwi via Capital is 192 parsecs. Assuming an average jump distance of 4.5 and 9 days per jump (plus an annual maintenance), we're talking one year and 5 weeks (And you can shave a bit off the distance by bypassing Capital). Still a long time, of course. ...

Meh. What am I doing wrong? Mora to, say, Voskhod is about 72 parsecs, then down is another 17 subsectors - 170 parsecs. Are you cutting across the rift?

The real mystery, if there is one, is why the contracts for 10 or 20 60,000T cruisers (over 10 years) was such a big deal, given that at any given time at peace the Imperium is building 1500 cruisers and battleships, an average of five per subsector. For wartime construction we could be talking about a lot more (assuming the Imperium gets more taxes when on a war footing). ...

A good point, and possibly the best argument for the Marches going from no contracts to four: with so many ships being built everywhere, it was actually a rather small bone to toss to the frontier duke. I still get hung up on their decision to toss that bone and then have the ships make a long trip to the front instead of committing them to the Marches or Corridor. If not for that one piece, this wouldn't bug me so much. Vengeance's keel was laid in 991. Solomani Rim War started in 990. Perhaps given the distances involved, it was a case of inertia: the bone had been tossed and the plans communicated before the Imperium realized they were going to need the extra support on that front, and it was easier to let plans move forward and move the ships afterward than to try to rescind contracts and negotiate new ones elsewhere.

 

[rancke]

It could have been. It could have been built anywhere, as you suggest. And if we are strongly motivated to eliminate Ling as a candidate so that we can put forth another candidate we prefer - say, Clan Severn - then we can take that view. However, unless there is some strong reason in canon to eliminate Ling as a candidate, I think the straightforward assumption is adequate.

That's just what I said. Except that Clan Severn is set in stone unless we want to retcon it's location. I'd rather not do that. As for the reason to move LSP's production away from the Marches, you're the one who thinks that the number of contracts they got out of the deal is excessive.

In other words, the Marches went from "little chance of receiving a contract" to 22% of the run on the strength of the offer to pay for one ship made by a frontier duke, and the assorted nobility of 20-some other sectors closer to the throne lacked the pull to do better.

Well, Willem was an in-law of Strephon (His wife is a cousin of Strephon's mother). And I don't see the problem. There's a canonical statement to the effect that it happened but not the details of how it happened. But Imperial politics ought to be complicated enough to provide a useable explanation.

The IN had ships built in a frontier sector and then took a couple years - or a year and 5 weeks with two days between jumps instead of the usual seven - flying some of them down to the Rim War rather than having them built where they could be of more immediate use.

The yard space was presumably not wasted. It could have been used for other ships or for maintenance or for repair.

Again, if we are strongly motivated to see other March builders making AHLs, we can take that view. Politics and influence do strange things; it is within the realm of possibility.

Well, I'm strongly motivated to believe that the ships built by Clan Severn were built at Rhylanor. I'm motivated to believe that Yard 17 is in the Marches because I'm strongly motivated to believe that the Kinunirs were a Marches project. I can't remember why Robert placed Yard 11 in the Marches, but if there's evidence that puts it in the Marches, I favor sticking to that evidence.

However, if we have no such agenda, then a more conservative view would be that the Marches scored one contract, that those ships served the Marches, and that the ships described as engaged in the Rim War were built where they could be moved up without a year or two's wait to get there.

Well, if the Marches only scored one contract, then it HAS to be the one Clan Severn got.

I don't recall saying "extra". Did I give that impression? My apologies.

Didn't the original text say that?

Meh. What am I doing wrong? Mora to, say, Voskhod is about 72 parsecs, then down is another 17 subsectors - 170 parsecs. Are you cutting across the rift?

Oops, I left out the Capital-Vland stretch. Mora-Vland, 72 parsecs, Vland-Capital, 59 parsecs, Capital-Muan Gwi, approximately 120 parsecs.

Vengeance's keel was laid in 991. Solomani Rim War started in 990. Perhaps given the distances involved, it was a case of inertia: the bone had been tossed and the plans communicated before the Imperium realized they were going to need the extra support on that front, and it was easier to let plans move forward and move the ships afterward than to try to rescind contracts and negotiate new ones elsewhere.

Well, that's really the biggest problem with the story. For Duke Willem to hear about the plan to build AHLs, submit a counter-proposal, and get a keel laid down at Rhylanor, a minimum of three messages have to go back and forth between Mora and Capital (let's assume that Duke Willem was visiting Mora ). By jump-5 courier that takes somewhere around 270 days each run. Add whatever time is needed at each end to make the decisions.That's two years and 80 days plus the decision-making time. That means that the process must have begun no later than 021-989, and most likely quite a few months earlier.

We do have one advantage, though. The Children of the Marches story is a library data entry. In other words, viewpoint writing. It's not authorial truth, it's what an in-setting LD editor thinks is the truth. That gives us a little wiggle room.

EDIT: Another factor occurs to me. Every one of the first 20 ships to be laid down is laid down in the course of a 280 day period in 991. Is that because budgetary concerns mandate that they can't be started until the 991 fiscal period? And does the selection of yards to receive contracts partly depend on which ones have space opening up in 991? Perhaps two thirds of the Imperial shipyards capable of building 60,000T ships were ruled out beforehand because they were building ships that wouldn't be finished until 992 or later.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

That's just what I said. Except that Clan Severn is set in stone unless we want to retcon it's location. I'd rather not do that. ...

Yes, per an article by Marc, with an attached image of Ship's Papers (commercial?) identifying the Unicorn as constructed by Clan Severn at Rhylanor. Thanks for the source, by the way. I agree that it's sufficient to establish Clan Severn at Rhylanor in canon.

...As for the reason to move LSP's production away from the Marches, you're the one who thinks that the number of contracts they got out of the deal is excessive. ...

Well of course, that's why we've been playing badminton these past several posts. Except that the later bit you brought up about the total scale of shipbuilding in the Imperium is prompting me to reconsider. Nothing to 20% is a big leap. Nothing to 20% of a run that constitutes no more than about one percent of the Imperium's total shipbuilding is a very small concession.

...Well, I'm strongly motivated to believe that the ships built by Clan Severn were built at Rhylanor. I'm motivated to believe that Yard 17 is in the Marches because I'm strongly motivated to believe that the Kinunirs were a Marches project. I can't remember why Robert placed Yard 11 in the Marches, but if there's evidence that puts it in the Marches, I favor sticking to that evidence. ...

I'll concede the likelihood that AHLs were built at Rhylanor while pointing out that if Ling has multiple yards, Clan Severn might just have a yard or two elsewhere as well.

...Well, that's really the biggest problem with the story. For Duke Willem to hear about the plan to build AHLs, submit a counter-proposal, and get a keel laid down at Rhylanor, a minimum of three messages have to go back and forth between Mora and Capital (let's assume that Duke Willem was visiting Mora ). By jump-5 courier that takes somewhere around 270 days each run. Add whatever time is needed at each end to make the decisions.That's two years and 80 days plus the decision-making time. That means that the process must have begun no later than 021-989, and most likely quite a few months earlier. ...

Timeline:
986 - Third Frontier War ends, poorly. Presumably Marches and supporting IN forces begin rebuilding.
989 - Styryx abdicates in the face of complaints about the handling of the war. Gavin is crowned. As news of the abdication reaches the Solomani sphere, they begin "reasserting their control."
990 - In response to the Solomani activity, the Imperium declares war.
015-991 - Keel for first of the Azhanti High Lightning class cruisers is laid at Gashidda #1.
107-991 - Keel for an Azhanti High Lightning class cruiser, Venomous Observer, is laid at Clan Severn.
118-991 - Keel for an Azhanti High Lightning class cruiser, Vengeance, is laid at Ling Standard.
132-991 - Keel for an Azhanti High Lightning class cruiser, Bard Endeavor, is laid at Yard 17.

I would suggest that in the wake of the turmoil following the Third Frontier War, after a suitable time putting the Marches in order, His Grace traveled to Capital to personally voice his concerns about the conduct of the war and advocate for the needs of the Marches. He would therefore have been on Capital at the time Styryx abdicated and was present for Gavin's coronation.

Imperial planning at that time would have focused on the Marches, four years out of a war and the subject of a very recent defense controversy that had led to the abdication of an Emperor. The Duke would have remained on Capital to remain closely involved in planning, giving the decision-makers the benefit of his knowledge of the region and using his influence to steer decisions regarding the Marches in the directions he wanted. News of problems in the Solomani region arrived soon after and would have prompted the Navy to shift focus to that region, and at that point His Grace is scrambling to get focus back on his own sector and salvage what he can. He was therefore present on Capital and able to wrangle some concessions at a time when the Imperium was beginning its pivot to deal with the Solomani issue.

Subsequently, with the war going into its fourth year, the two sides stalemated and the war giving every appearance of going on for several more years, the Imperium began drawing in ships from quieter regions to reinforce the fleets involved in the Rim War. The AHLs, with their jump-5 capability (highest at the time, if I recall), were considered a high priority. Of the four(?) AHLs completed in the Marches by that point, two were ordered rimward: Bard Endeavor and Luminous Shield, to assemble with AHLs completed from other regions to form one or more jump-5 cruiser squadrons. Subsequently, additional AHLs completed in the Marches were ordered rimward to either replace combat losses or assemble into new jump-5 squadrons.

Part of the negotiating may indeed have been pointing out that, with Jump 5, the ships could be on the Rim in less time than it took (then) more traditional jump-3 cruisers to get there from Vland.

...We do have one advantage, though. The Children of the Marches story is a library data entry. In other words, viewpoint writing. It's not authorial truth, it's what an in-setting LD editor thinks is the truth. That gives us a little wiggle room. ...

True. The basic fact of Children of the March isn't viewpoint. It's relative importance, however, is viewpoint. To the author, it was a clever play by which the Duke brought hundreds of billions of credits in Imperial business to the Marches. Nice PR piece. To the decision-makers in Capital, it was a minor deal that diverted production of a few ships out of an Imperium-wide production of several hundred ships annually; the value offered by the Duke was a fraction of a percent of the total budget, noteworthy only because it was unusual. The Imperial Marches covered well over half the sector, so there were likely 8 to 10 IN squadrons to support and two major top-tech worlds with which to support them, not to mention Rhylanor: even with Imperial attention shifted rimward, there'd be a need to support those squadrons, so quite a bit of tonnage in production even if the total dropped by a few percent for a while. With those squadrons likely still rebuilding after the war, the Duke may have won other concessions as well. However, the deal that gets attention is the AHL deal. As a PR move, it's hard to beat: every time a child tossed a quarter-credit into the basket, he or she would be reminded of how the Duke of Regina had fought to get business for their corner of the Imperium.

...EDIT: Another factor occurs to me. Every one of the first 20 ships to be laid down is laid down in the course of a 280 day period in 991. Is that because budgetary concerns mandate that they can't be started until the 991 fiscal period? And does the selection of yards to receive contracts partly depend on which ones have space opening up in 991? Perhaps two thirds of the Imperial shipyards capable of building 60,000T ships were ruled out beforehand because they were building ships that wouldn't be finished until 992 or later. ...

I dunno. The way they're scattered over that period, I presume work started as soon as they finished with whatever other ship they'd been building before that. Presumably the selection of yards does depend on who's going to be available. With the implication that the IN is issuing contracts for hundreds of ships every year over possibly a dozen or more classes, any single yard can enter into negotiations for whatever contracts are coming up close to the time they finish their current contract run and stay busy - assuming of course they get the contract. By extension, the four yards that got the AHL contracts represent only a small fraction of the total yards operating in the Marches at the time. We speculated based on 20,000 capital ships in the Imperial fleet, that perhaps 500 were being laid down in any given year, average 25 in any given sector - maybe a bit more than half that in the Marches. Figuring roughly 2 1/2 years to completion, another 38 or so in various stages of construction - again, a bit more than half that in the Marches. Suggests there may have been about 35 builders in the Marches at the time, with about 20 already busy and about 15 starting new construction, many of those being the next ship on an existing contract. If we assume 4 or 5 ships to a contract is typical, then that suggests those four companies were the ones looking for a contract at the time - which meant the Duke's deal saved them from having to do alternate work and then compete with more builders for the available contracts at the next round of contracting.

Odd coincidence that. Okay, I concede: by happy coincidence, the number of March builders who should have been looking for work at the time is just the number that AHL suggested got contracts at the time.