Plankwell and Kokirrak

[martletsquire]

The books don't say at what a particular class is designed at, just at what the class average of the vessel is.

Early TL15 designs would, by extrapolation from Sol wet navy construction, still follow many previous TL design paradigms and practices, with only a few being "Futuristic".

A good example is the current US crop of space delivery systems. Let's see, went to moon and back on a capsule on a stick. After farting around with a stupid design for 30 years, we have a high-tech capsule on a stick to go to... the moon and elsewhere.

As to the possibility, in a TL14 environment, of a TL13 design being useful, then one should consider who the TL14 Imperium is fighting and losing to. The Zhods are one tech level below, and the Sollies are 1-2 tech levels behind yet are capable of trouncing higher tech Imp forces. So, that TL13 battleship will be useful, very useful. Maybe not in fast raiding forces, but in an orbital slugfest (space Jutland) or in an invasion force (like the WWI battleships used to soften up land targets in the Pacific and in the Atlantic).

TL is not the end-all be-all of power and quality. I had a TL10 admiral of a Podunk system trounce a Zhod TL14 naval base with 10 small TL9 and TL10 system ships. They did a Heinlein drop on the Zhods. All the Zhods TL advantage wasn't able to stop multiple multiple rock strikes.

Or, in a real world sense, witness the power of a low tech group to withstand a much higher tech force. Vietnam, the middle east insurgencies and such. Yes, they are funded and propped up by external forces, but still they employ low tech methods to defeat a high tech force, and use some high tech stuff in a low tech but efficient way.

Tech is a base. That dude in TL15 battle dress has to worry about that TL5 dude with a bolt-action gun and a grenade.

And in reference to a TL13 battleship, well, just think of all the higher tech things you can shove into the same space.. Me mouth is watering at all the wonders

 

[rancke]

As to the possibility, in a TL14 environment, of a TL13 design being useful, then one should consider who the TL14 Imperium is fighting and losing to. The Zhods are one tech level below, and the Sollies are 1-2 tech levels behind yet are capable of trouncing higher tech Imp forces. So, that TL13 battleship will be useful, very useful.

The usefulness of TL13 combat vessels is a good reason not to just scrap them. The greater usefulness for less money of TL14 combat vessels is a good reason not to build any more TL13 combat vessels. After having built TL14 ships for 300 years, it just doesn't make sense that there would be any TL13 combat vessels left¹. Indeed, after just 100 years there would only be a handful left.

¹ Except in planetary and subsector navies without access to TL14 shipyards.​

Hans

 

[Garnfellow]

What TL are swimming pools introduced?

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/this-us-navy-battleship-sported-two-swimming-pools-1637390515/+Kyosuke

 

[rancke]

What TL are swimming pools introduced?

0 or 1. Is Mohenjo-daro TL0 or TL1?


Hans

 

[Theophilus]

"Following the Fourth Frontier War (1082 to 1084), sometimes referred to as the
False War, the Imperial Admiralty began a fundamental reexamination of their
naval strategy in the spinward regions of the realm. Prior to that fourth war, naval
policy had favored essentially a "crust" strategy, with major fleet elements well
forward in potential trouble spots such as the Spinward Marches. For decades this
strategy had been effective due to the tremendous technological and material lead
enjoyed by the Imperium over its neighbors. The Fourth Frontier War demonstrated,
however, that the Imperium's lead had narrowed to the point that a clear
superiority could no longer be achieved at all points along the frontier."

Taken directly from Supplement 9, pg5. note the phrase "effective due to the tremendous technological and material lead." Tech and Lot's of ships, even old ones?

The Fourth Frontier War demonstrated,
however, that the Imperium's lead had narrowed to the point that a clear
superiority could no longer be achieved at all points along the frontier.

Does that mean that all those old TL13 Tiananmen's, and TL14 Perisher's suddenly showed there age? Remember, These ships are from the 990-1002 era, and the Fourth Frontier War is 1082-1084, so 80 years, which would tie in with the ship longevity from TA7, Tiananmens would have been in service around 180 years, probably moved to the reserves and colonial fleets, while Perisher's would be 90, aged, but still "mainline" unit's, with the newer Kokirrak's entering service.

Although some older battleships of greater displacement
remain in service, the Tigress class dreadnaught is the largest line-of-battle vessel
currently in service with the Imperial Navy in the Spinward Marches

Older battleships of greater displacement? Older than TL15 Tigress, Greater Displacement, So the imperium keeps older ships in service?

For decades, the Imperial Fleet in the Spinward Marches has included at least
one BatRon of Plankwell class ships, but recently (1102), the last such squadron
was rotated to the strategic reserve in Corridor Sector

For Decades, so at least two, so 1082, Plankwells in service during the 4FW.

The Kokirraks are one of the older classes of dreadnaughts in Imperial service,
and are now being phased out of service

So, does this mean the Kokirrak class predates the 4FW? So would this date them to the 3FW/SRW era or there about, Say 990-1050?

And finally, back to the original Question that started this post:

The Atlantic class, however, is fast approaching obsolesence, and is not the equal
of more modern vessels in the Imperium and neighboring regions. The slight disadvantage
of 5-G acceleration and agility 5 are telling in otherwise equal engagements,
and make the class inferior enough to affect strategic judgements concerning
its commitment.

The Kokirrak class is 6-G Agility 6 because of the advantage it has over the 5-G Agility 5 Plankwell.

Four Squadrons of Kokirrak's are kept in the Marches, because their 6-G drives give them an advantage on defense. Thus survivability. After all, they must hold the line until the reserves arrive from Corridor Sector. The Planwell's Longer jump range gives them the Strategic advantage, when the Imperial Reserve forces arrive. 5-G is less of a disadvantage when you get to attack on your chosen battlefield. Jump over the Zho forces and attack where the ain't. If you don't have the advantage, retreat and attack again elsewhere.

 

[rancke]

Does that mean that all those old TL13 Tiananmen's, and TL14 Perisher's suddenly showed there age? Remember, These ships are from the 990-1002 era, and the Fourth Frontier War is 1082-1084, so 80 years, which would tie in with the ship longevity from TA7, Tiananmens would have been in service around 180 years, probably moved to the reserves and colonial fleets, while Perisher's would be 90, aged, but still "mainline" unit's, with the newer Kokirrak's entering service.

Assuming there's is nothing atypical about the service life of the Lightning Class cruisers, ships have an active service life of 40-50 years, with some lasting longer and (very few) lasting less¹.

¹ Ignoring combat losses, that is.​

If there are any Tiannamens in active service 180 years after they were first built, it would be because new ones had been built a good deal more recently. The problem is that 180 years ago, TL13 ships had been superceded by TL14 ships more than two centuries earlier. Planetary and ducal (subsector) navies without access to TL14 shipyards would have built TL13 combat vessels back then (and would still be doing it now), but the IN wouldn't, because it would have access to TL14 shipyards. The IN would stop building new TL13 combat vessels in 700 and it would stop building new TL14 combat vessels in 1000. (As, indeed, it did in the case of the AHLs).

Note the way I phrased it. Ceasing to build new ships does not mean that the IN wouldn't have kept the ones it already had.

Older battleships of greater displacement? Older than TL15 Tigress, Greater Displacement, So the imperium keeps older ships in service?

Sure, until they wear out.

For Decades, so at least two, so 1082, Plankwells in service during the 4FW.

I hadn't considered that quote. In my [non-canon] work on Tigresses, I have the first one finished on 172-1082. I should probably move that back some years. It's just possible for the first eight Tigresses built to be assigned to the Marches by 1083, but it doesn't sound likely that it would be that fast.

So, does this mean the Kokirrak class predates the 4FW? So would this date them to the 3FW/SRW era or there about, Say 990-1050?

Since the Kokirraks are TL15 they won't have been built before 1000.

The Kokirraks are a special case. They're designed to carry one of the relic black globes found on Knorbes, so they will have been built as one batch of a given size (an unusually big batch -- one fan guesstimate was 1800) and then no more. Since they are being phased out by 1105, a good guess for the first flight would be 1050, give or take a decade.


Hans

 

[Ulsyus]

Note the way I phrased it. Ceasing to build new ships does not mean that the IN wouldn't have kept the ones it already had.
Hans

This is where some beancounters would earn their soup. Would it ultimately be more effective to upgrade electronics (sensors and such) to TL15 and have some less capable but still line-of-battle vessels available in numbers, or more cost and combat effective to simply scrap or sell off the old vessels and completely replace them?

 

[rancke]

This is where some beancounters would earn their soup. Would it ultimately be more effective to upgrade electronics (sensors and such) to TL15 and have some less capable but still line-of-battle vessels available in numbers, or more cost and combat effective to simply scrap or sell off the old vessels and completely replace them?

In 700 the Imperial Navy Planning Board has to decide what to build to replace the 2.5% of the navy's ships that are being disposed of no matter what because they have become too old and infirm. Do they build TL13 ships or do they build TL14 ships that are cheaper and better? They also have to decide if they want to replace or upgrade the other 97.5% of the navy, and it's not unreasonable to assume that they decide to keep them for the time being, what with the complete absence of major wars and all. Next year they again have to decide between TL13 ships or TL14 ships for the next batch of replacements. By 740 the entire navy has been replaced. By 980 the entire navy has been replaced seven times.

Same thing happens in 1000, the Planning Board has to choose between building replacement TL14 ships or replacement TL15 ships. An this time not only do the compluters give a bit of an advantage to the TL15 option, there's one dilly of a saving in using TL15 power plants at half the volume and half cost of TL14 power plants. So, once again, in forty years the entire navy would have been replaced just by natural peacetime processes.

(I've ignored the complications that would arise from some ships having longer service lives than 40 years).


Hans

 

[Theophilus]

Which ignores the multiple references to the Imperial Navy Acquiring TL10-14 ships, while being at TL15.

 

[mike wightman]

Those references are misleading or wrong. Either the authors haven't done their research or they are trying to introduce their own prejudices.

The IN fleet in 1105 is TL15, it is cheaper for the IN to build at TL15 than it is to build at TL9-14.

 

[rancke]

Which ignores the multiple references to the Imperial Navy Acquiring TL10-14 ships, while being at TL15.

Not at all. The Imperial Navy can procure TL10-14 auxiliaries -- scouts, transports, tankers, couriers, hospital ships, repair ships, etc. -- without compromising its combat ability. It's just combatants -- escorts and combat vessels -- that it's silly to build at less than TL15.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Those references are misleading or wrong. Either the authors haven't done their research or they are trying to introduce their own prejudices.

The IN fleet in 1105 is TL15, it is cheaper for the IN to build at TL15 than it is to build at TL9-14.

The military taxes of member worlds are probably paid in kind. So a TL14 member world will pay in TL14 ships (and other TL14 goods). The alternative is that it sells goods to a TL15 world and remits the proceeds of the sales to the Imperium. It's probably politically sound for the Imperium to accept the former model. It may even be part of the membership charter boilerplate.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

The military taxes of member worlds are probably paid in kind. So a TL14 member world will pay in TL14 ships (and other TL14 goods). The alternative is that it sells goods to a TL15 world and remits the proceeds of the sales to the Imperium. It's probably politically sound for the Imperium to accept the former model. It may even be part of the membership charter boilerplate.


Hans

That's a workable model. There are only a few TL15 worlds scattered about. Opting for lower tech ships both helps the other worlds and keeps the IN from being dependent on a few sources. Still, the Navy's likely to have a limited need for lower tech ships. The J4 fleet is limited to TL13 and above, the J3 fleet to TL12 and above. TL10 yards are capable only of jump-1 ships; possibly those yards concentrate on utility boats, but the boats lose a lot of cargo capacity when they're built at the lower tech levels. That loss of efficiency associated with the TL12 and lower power plants is going to play a role in decision-making; reduced cargo capacity means more ships or more trips to carry the same load. TL12-11 is likely to be limited to non-combat non-cargo auxiliaries like scouts and couriers. I can't see the IN procuring from TL10 yards: jump range is too low and the utility boats would be very inefficient. They could possibly produce little 10 dT scout fighters, but not much else of any use.

 

[martletsquire]

It would be more militarily sound, but less economically so, to disperse production to as many facilities as possible. Sort of the WWII Japanese pattern of cottage industry producing parts for CL30J3M3P6 Prince Norman class Light Cruiser – ISPMV – TL12 – 30ktfinal assembly at a specific location.

A TL14 or lower yard can make living modules, magazines and such that would fit into the TL15 hull, much like ocean liners and modern warships are component built today. Only the parts that need to be TL15 have to be built at a TL15 facility, and the TL15 yard can assemble the whole ball of wax.

 

[rancke]

Theophilius is referring to a canonical statement about the IN procuring ships running the gamut from TL10 to 15. IIRC it is in HG.



Hans

 

[robject]

Not at all. The Imperial Navy can procure TL10-14 auxiliaries -- scouts, transports, tankers, couriers, hospital ships, repair ships, etc. -- without compromising its combat ability. It's just combatants -- escorts and combat vessels -- that it's silly to build at less than TL15.

I saw exactly this happen the one time we ran an Islands campaign. The Glorious People's Democratic Republic of New Colchis had a relatively low tech level, but could build large hulls, while New Home had the opposite problem: very high tech but hull size restrictions. New Colchis' proposal was to sell New Home a pile of Big Low TL Hulls as auxiliaries -- carriers and tankers, probably -- in exchange for some neat high-tech ships.

 

[HG_B]

Those references are misleading or wrong. Either the authors haven't done their research or they are trying to introduce their own prejudices.

The IN fleet in 1105 is TL15, it is cheaper for the IN to build at TL15 than it is to build at TL9-14.

MgT High Guard kind of built this into its rules. It is cheaper to produce a J-drive that appears at TL 13 on a TL 15 world, than it is on a TL 13 world. Or, you can choose to build it smaller than it can be made on a TL 13 world. For a higher price...

 

[Carlobrand]

Theophilius is referring to a canonical statement about the IN procuring ships running the gamut from TL10 to 15. IIRC it is in HG.



Hans

High Guard II, page 20: "The Imperial Navy may procure ships of up to tech level 15, although it also procures vessels at tech levels 10 through 14."

Wouldn't be the first time we thought the people who wrote the rules didn't fully understand them. However, since it occurs in the book that gives us the rules, on the first page of the ship construction section, we can't really portray this as some supplement writer who didn't read the rules or who was trying to inject his own biases. This would be a case of the people who drafted the rules injecting their own biases - which given that it's a primary rule book, they're entitled to do.

If I recall, it also wouldn't be the first time the Imperium did things in a way that struck us as inefficient. Barring errata, it is clearly canon that the IN "procures vessels at tech levels 10 through 14," though I'm hard pressed to think of anything at TL10 that would be useful to the IN other than an Admiral's Yacht or some such thing.

On the other hand, the Scout Service is supposed to make heavy use of the Scout/Courier, which both Supplement 7 and Supplement 9 identify as a TL9 ship (and Supplement 9 uses its Book 2 data) even though the Jump-2 drive is supposedly only available at TL11. I don't see any errata on that point, and I cannot make HG give me a TL11 scout courier - or a TL9/11 hybrid - with a 40 dTon fuel tank without significantly altering other key elements. If we are grandfathering the CT Book-2 ships into the same universe as the HG ships, then those low tech ports could be busying themselves producing Book-2 cutters, pinnaces, and the like.

One thing: if we accept the MT statement of about 1000 fleet ships per sector and assume a turnover rate of 2.5%, then the fleet is constructing an average 25 ships annually per sector (a bit fewer in the Marches). The capital ships are taking about 4 years from laying of the keel to launch. I don't know what the consensus is on how that 1000-ship figure divides out, but it suggests there may be up to a hundred ships at various stages of construction at any one time, something like 5 million to 20 million dTons of construction. Typical fully Imperial sector's around 500-ish systems with a whole lotta ports of B and below, and typically only a few TL15 A-ports.

I don't know what the canon is on shipbuilding capacity other than TCS, and that's not supposed to be used for modeling economics. However, if population is any sort of guide, then construction of capital ships is primarily at ports of worlds with 100 million pop or greater, with the great bulk of it at the big 10-billion pop worlds. Most sectors have two or three TL15 A-port megaworlds, so there seems to be adequate capacity, but that would mean the vast majority of Imperial shipbuilding funds goes to those two or three TL15 A-ports, which does not appear to be the picture canon is trying to paint. Allowing the TL13-14 ports build auxiliaries would have the advantage of diversifying the shipbuilding and spreading the wealth (and possibly freeing up capacity for civilian shipbuilding, depending on what capacity actually is). It doesn't sound efficient, but it might be where we'd end up if political considerations became involved.

 

[HG_B]

I don't know what the canon is on shipbuilding capacity other than TCS, and that's not supposed to be used for modeling economics. However, if population is any sort of guide, then construction of capital ships is primarily at ports of worlds with 100 million pop or greater, with the great bulk of it at the big 10-billion pop worlds. Most sectors have two or three TL15 A-port megaworlds,

If they are building that many in the sector per year I'd have the IN set up production at dedicated Depot/ship yards that are NOT civilian. They can forecast production and bring in needed personnel on contract. It would not be that bright to try and get shipyards at civvie starports to carry that load. If for no other reason than security and secrecy.

 

[shadowcat20]

For scouts built at lower tech worlds maybe they pulled pre assembled thing. Important ship parts are shipped cased and assembled at destination. Drives, comps, electronics, avionics, ect are pre made and shipped as a package. Local shipyards just assemble the hull from local materials and plug in the guts of the ship. Standard parts, and template. Just some assembly required.