Plankwell and Kokirrak

[martletsquire]

There is a great economic reason for using TL13 components over cutting edge TL15 components.

1. They've been around longer, so most of the kinks have been worked out.

2. Lower TL closer to Imp Norm means larger number of systems and sophonts can access the technology on a daily basis.

3. Quite a bit of TL15 is more expensive than its TL13 counterpart, as atpollard points out.

I have always considered, IMHO, that the Imperium's ships are much like our current military ships, a mixture of the latest and greatest (which breaks a lot and costs a whole bunch), stuff from 20 years ago, stuff from 40 years ago, and stuff that looked tired and old during WWII.

For an Air-Force perspective, take a look at the main US Bomber, the B-52. Introduced before I was born, using 1st and 2nd gen jet engine technology, it has been constantly upgraded. Airframe may be TL13, so to speak, but it contains TL14 and TL15 tech, so to speak. Sure, it may not be sexy looking like the B1 or futuristic like the B2, but when you gotta do an ArcLight drop, ya call in the BUFFs.

In other words, you might not need a TL15 crapper when a TL9 one will work just as well, or even better.

Any warship is going to be a collection of concessions to speed, offensive and defensive capability, protection (armor or electronic means) and systems all the way down to the food storage and waste systems.

 

[Theophilus]

Um... that's 300 years after the Imperium began building TL14 ships and they're just now beginning to change from a TL13 design as the standard?!? HIGHLY implausible.

And Yet TA7 Fighting Ships clearly say's this is so, TL13 Battleships still in mainline service,
TL14 Replacements just coming into service. My guess, why replace your ships when you have no enemies who can compete with your combined fleet strength? Also note the Tiananmen class is stated to be 90 years in service in 993, so new build 990 imp.

Big combat vessels take time to build. Replacing 5000 dreadnaughts would take many years (Though not 300! ).

Exactly, so why take the time and spend the coin if there's no need! Cheaper to replace them with Rider's.

The Kokirraks were designed to carry relic black globes, which would depend on when those BGs were found for the timing. Presumably there are several other TL15 design that were designed as regular replacements for obsolete TL14 designs.

point granted.

The only ones we know the names for, but FFW features eight or nine different battleship types of squadrons. Evidently the Imperium has a good deal more than two or three classes at a time. And in peacetime they would all be the highest mature tech level; some mothballed designs of lower TLs might become reactivated for the duration in times of war (Or be in active service in subsector and planetary navies). You might see some TL13 designs in front line service during the first half of the 8th Century, but that would be the latest. Likewise, some TL14 designs might still be in front line service during the first half of the 11th Century, but I don't see many surviving past 1050.


Hans

Of course many of these are actually battlerider/tender combo's. The 154th from Spinward Marches Campaign is there as one of the 6-2-8 battleron's. Since SMC also indicates that the Tronskia's were replaced around 722 with a rider tender squadron

So, after 722 imp, we have the following Riders in service:
Auliaau rider (723)
Quiquilat rider (903)
Nolikian/Lurenti rider/Tender (1084)
World class tender w/Riders
Timarin (793)
plus all the broken designs from FSOSI

Battleships in service:
Tronskia
Voroshilef
Uzshu
Inkaluur
Tiananmen
Perisher
Kokirraks
Tigress
Plankwell
Sylea
Sarandon

So the imperium could easily have 4our battleship types in service (which we know they do in 1107, Tigress, Plankewell, Kokirraks, Sylea), and Four Rider classes. OR some of the FFW squadrons could be partial rider squadrons, not at full strength.

 

[rancke]

And Yet TA7 Fighting Ships clearly say's this is so, TL13 Battleships still in mainline service, TL14 Replacements just coming into service.

Yes, I've gathered that TA7 has a lot of implausible material.

My guess, why replace your ships when you have no enemies who can compete with your combined fleet strength?

Because the ships become worn out over time. Why not build a better replacement when you've figured out how to do it?

Also note the Tiananmen class is stated to be 90 years in service in 993, so new build 990 imp.

Say that again?

Exactly, so why take the time and spend the coin if there's no need! Cheaper to replace them with riders.

Because there's a ongoing controversy in the Imperium considering the true comparative effectiveness of riders vs. ships.


Hans

 

[Theophilus]

The Text in TA7 Reads:

"TIANANMEN CLASS BATTLESHIP – TL 13
Built for the line, the Tiananmen class was once the
pinnacle of naval military technology. Nowadays, even
though the 350,000 ton design is ninety years old, it is still an
impressive display of Imperial power."

So, TA7 is set in 993 imp, Is ninety years old, means designed and in service circa 903.

Also:
"Tiananmens are still constructed at shipyards throughout the Imperium and several megacorporations have been given the
contracts to continue to produce them in significant numbers for the Imperial Navy."

So production continues. Even though the new Perisher class TL-14 ships are just coming online.

Because there's a ongoing controversy in the Imperium considering the true comparative effectiveness of riders vs. ships.

So, while the Imperium continues to build New classes, (Perisher, Plankwell) Many older ships still remain in service, (Tiananmen, Kokirraks) long after their useful service life.

It would be nice to know what percentages go to each type, BB vs BR. 50/50, 60/40, 40/60.

 

[robject]

I'm a bit surpised that Tronskias are still being built, but OK.

I'm sure we'll never know the percentage breakdown of Imperial BB-vs-BR production.

 

[rancke]

The Text in TA7 Reads:

"TIANANMEN CLASS BATTLESHIP – TL 13
Built for the line, the Tiananmen class was once the pinnacle of naval military technology. Nowadays, even though the 350,000 ton design is ninety years old, it is still an impressive display of Imperial power."

Once again, TA7 is not making sense. No TL13 battleship built in 900 would ever have been the pinnacle of naval military technology. That would have been one TL14 design or another since 700 (when the Imperium reached TL14).

Not that a 350,000T battleship isn't impressive regardless of tech level.

Also:
"Tiananmens are still constructed at shipyards throughout the Imperium and several megacorporations have been given the contracts to continue to produce them in significant numbers for the Imperial Navy."

I suppose that's possible, but I can't quite see why the Imperium would buy TL13 batteships rather than TL14 battleships that would be a good deal more effective for the same or less money. I would have thought TL13 combatants would be limited to TL13 planetary and duchy navies.

To utilize the available TL13 shipyard capacity¹ the Imperium would be better off building J4 transport ships.

¹ It's my theory that the Imperium gets its military taxes in the form of goods bought on the world paying the tax, hence the canonical fact that the Imperial Navy have ships of TL10-14 in addition to its TL15 ships.​

So, while the Imperium continues to build New classes, (Perisher, Plankwell) Many older ships still remain in service, (Tiananmen, Kokirraks) long after their useful service life.

Well, there's a difference between a ship no longer being suitable for front line service and having outlived its service life. The AHLs were kept in service for about 60 years (until 1048). At that point the remaining 49 ships still in service were transferred to fleet auxiliary (16), placed in ordinary (20), or scrapped (12)². I think we can say that they were removed from front line service at that point. But some of them remained in service. As auxiliaries.

² The 49th was sold to Oberlindes Lines.​

Hans

 

[Theophilus]

Once again, TA7 is not making sense. No TL13 battleship built in 900 would ever have been the pinnacle of naval military technology. That would have been one TL14 design or another since 700 (when the Imperium reached TL14).

Not that a 350,000T battleship isn't impressive regardless of tech level.


I suppose that's possible, but I can't quite see why the Imperium would buy TL13 batteships rather than TL14 battleships that would be a good deal more effective for the same or less money. I would have thought TL13 combatants would be limited to TL13 planetary and duchy navies.

Well, there's a difference between a ship no longer being suitable for front line service and having outlived its service life. The AHLs were kept in service for about 60 years (until 1048). At that point the remaining 49 ships still in service were transferred to fleet auxiliary (16), placed in ordinary (20), or scrapped (12)². I think we can say that they were removed from front line service at that point. But some of them remained in service. As auxiliaries.

Hans

Well, let's look to real life. The USN keeps returning 1940's battleships to service, long after aircraft rendered them obsolete. Why not build "new, advanced battleships?"

The USN, Royal Navy, and French Navy all keep old carriers in service, long after newer technologically advanced designs are available, Why?
Yes there are new carriers being built, but only slowly.

Economics. It cost's credits to build new ships, plus all the experienced personnel at the yards building the ships can quickly build familiar designs, So the Imperium keeps building what they know how to build.

Need: If the other interstellar powers are at TL11-12 then the TL13 ships the Imperium have in service are more than adequate. Consider This, Of the 32 Solomani ships in TA9, 5 are TL14, 21 are TL13, And 6 are TL12. Where as TA7 has 29 Imperial Ships, 15 at TL14, 7 At TL13, 6 At TL12, 1 at TL11. So overall the Imperium has the Tech advantage, Even with a larger spread in Tech levels, 22 of 29 designs equal or exceed the Solomani. And TA7 say's a small amount of TL15 equipment is coming into service, so the Tech advantage will increase.

But, The Third Frontier War and Solomani Rim War showed that the Imperial advantage was not as great as they had thought. Many frontier squadrons were made up of older/obsolete ships, a practice that continues into the modern era. These ships faired poorly against mainline enemy ships until more advanced ships could be brought up from the interior of the Imperium. FFW also indicates this.

 

[rancke]

Well, let's look to real life. The USN keeps returning 1940's battleships to service, long after aircraft rendered them obsolete. Why not build "new, advanced battleships?"

The USN, Royal Navy, and French Navy all keep old carriers in service, long after newer technologically advanced designs are available, Why?
Yes there are new carriers being built, but only slowly.

Economics. It cost's credits to build new ships, plus all the experienced personnel at the yards building the ships can quickly build familiar designs, So the Imperium keeps building what they know how to build.

Well, let's look at the one major example we have, the AHL. When the Solomani Rim War was over 21 of them had been lost; another 5 were scrapped due to battle damage, leaving 68. Since they were not put in ordinary, we can assume that they were put to use instead of having them replaced by TL15 designs now available. Over the next half century, 17 of them were lost or disposed of. Did the Imperium build more AHLs to replace them? It did not. Did it build some different TL14 ships to replace them? I see no reason why it should. Did it build some TL15 ships to replace them? Just possibly it decided to reduce its active strength by those 17 ships and not replace them, but if it didn't, it would have built replacements. Then in 1048, the remaining 49 AHLs were all disposed of one way or another. If the Imperium decided to replace them (and I see no good reason to believe otherwise), then it would have been with a TL15 design.

Need: If the other interstellar powers are at TL11-12 then the TL13 ships the Imperium have in service are more than adequate.

It's not a question of adequate, it's a question of the most crunch for the credit when a NEW ship is built. Credit for credit TL15 designs are better than TL14 designs, even if you give the TL14 designs the 5% currency exchange advantage. That's really all there is to it. It's one thing to retain a good enough ship in service rather than pay good money to replace it. It's entirely different to replace it with a ship that's inferior to what you could have gotten for the same (or less) money.

Many frontier squadrons were made up of older/obsolete ships, a practice that continues into the modern era.

Where's the evidence that this is a practice? (In the sense that's it's a concious choice to go with the inferior option -- if you meant something else, I have misunderstood you.) Planetary and subsector navies are built at the tech level of the planet or the highest tech level available in the subsector. That means that some of them are not up to TL15 standards, because they can't be -- there are no one to build TL15 ships for them¹. But that does not apply to the Imperial Navy. And FS reflects that. Most of the ships feature are TL15, and the few exceptions are there for special reasons (e.g. the AHL is there because GDW had published the AHL box).

¹ Though logically the frontier squadrons of Mora and Rhylanor and Trin and Glisten would all be TL15. ​

Hans

 

[Hyphen]

I haven't read through the entire thread, but has anyone mentioned the boded superdense armour leap from TL 13 to 14, which means it makes complete sense to refit "TL 14" hulls with TL 15 power plants - which, as Hans pointed out in the beginning, is where the extra punch comes from.

 

[Carlobrand]

Well, let's look to real life. The USN keeps returning 1940's battleships to service, long after aircraft rendered them obsolete. Why not build "new, advanced battleships?"

The USN, Royal Navy, and French Navy all keep old carriers in service, long after newer technologically advanced designs are available, Why?
Yes there are new carriers being built, but only slowly.
...

If we built a new Yorktown in 1972 using 1940 technology, we would probably not say it represented the, "pinnacle of naval military technology," not unless we wanted the public to worry about the state of our military. They were building TL14 AHLs in 991. There may be a time and a place for obsolescent technology, even in new construction, but no one is going to think of it as a "pinnacle". Some writer flatly erred when he referred to a TL13 warship built in an era when the Imperium was building TL14 warships as a "pinnacle of naval military technology."

 

[aramis]

If we built a new Yorktown in 1972 using 1940 technology, we would probably not say it represented the, "pinnacle of naval military technology," not unless we wanted the public to worry about the state of our military. They were building TL14 AHLs in 991. There may be a time and a place for obsolescent technology, even in new construction, but no one is going to think of it as a "pinnacle". Some writer flatly erred when he referred to a TL13 warship built in an era when the Imperium was building TL14 warships as a "pinnacle of naval military technology."

Or, perhaps, there's a missing TL14 variant, with TL14 weapons and drives.

 

[Carlobrand]

Or, perhaps, there's a missing TL14 variant, with TL14 weapons and drives.

A TL14 Yorktown? Wow!

Seriously though, I need a clarification. TA7 is what? T20? That's what the web search seems to be indicating. And then I belatedly understand from Theo's post that some of these blurbs talking about "nowadays" are in fact being stated as if it's 993? I'm confused.

 

[rancke]

Seriously though, I need a clarification. TA7 is what? T20? That's what the web search seems to be indicating. And then I belatedly understand from Theo's post that some of these blurbs talking about "nowadays" are in fact being stated as if it's 993? I'm confused.

Just so. TA7 is a T20 product and pertains to Milieu 1000. It's a source of information about the OTU a century (and a bit) before Fighting Ships. Unfortunately, the writers didn't realize the ramifications of the Imperium having been TL14 for 300 years and being on the verge of TL15 and thus presenting us with conflicting information.

Of course, it's possible that TA7 is right and FS is wrong. But if Chrysanthemums really were TL14 designs, the Imperium would have stopped building new ones when they switched to TL15 designs. It might have updated the existing Chrysanthemums, but it wouldn't build new ones. So you have to decide how many Chryanthemums you believe would still be in active service 114 years later.

Me, I prefer to think that Chrysnathemums is a TL15 design of a much more recent vintage.


Hans

 

[aramis]

A TL14 Yorktown? Wow!

Seriously though, I need a clarification. TA7 is what? T20? That's what the web search seems to be indicating. And then I belatedly understand from Theo's post that some of these blurbs talking about "nowadays" are in fact being stated as if it's 993? I'm confused.

Yes. TA7 is the T20 answer to Sup 9. The "now" of T20 (all of it) is Year of the 3rd Imperium 993.

 

[aramis]

Of course, it's possible that TA7 is right and FS is wrong. But if Chrysanthemums really were TL14 designs, the Imperium would have stopped building new ones when they switched to TL15 designs. It might have updated the existing Chrysanthemums, but it wouldn't build new ones. So you have to decide how many Chryanthemums you believe would still be in active service 114 years later.

Your lack of knowledge of things naval is glaringly obvious.

Hans, there are ships still in service (and new construction at that) based upon 80+ year old plans even now; despite new drives and the addition of electronics, they're still the same class. Sure, they're whaleboats and motor launches... but they're still the same classes as were originally drafted during World War I & II.

A ship doesn't change class due to drive or weapon changes. It may be a separate sub-class, if they have to move or add a couple bulkheads... But so long as the general hull plans are basically the same, it's the same class. A Ohio, originally in SSBN mode is still the same class, despite the designation change, when it becomes an SSGN. It does, however, become a member of a different subclass. Note that this is a change in armaments, and due to lower mass, a slight change in top speed.

And the 993 Chrysanthemum is the same exterior hull. the interior changes require adding a bulkhead in engineering. The Visible N-space performance is the same.

So, it's very likely the same class, but in two different subclasses, one TL14, one TL15.

Likewise, we see 3 subclasses of AHL. Colonial Cruiser, Fleet Cruiser, and Scout Cruiser. A fourth is the "disarmed" merchant version. All are still Lightning Class Cruisers.

 

[mike wightman]

Check out the changes made to the Arleigh Burke class destroyer. They have grown by 5 feet and got 1500t heavier - still the same class though.

 

[rancke]

Check out the changes made to the Arleigh Burke class destroyer. They have grown by 5 feet and got 1500t heavier - still the same class though.

You've convinced me, as far as the TL14 Chrysanthemums are concerned.

I still don't believe in the TL13 Tianamens being the pinnacle of naval design in 903, in TL13 ships being the Imprial norm for battleships in 993, and if the Kokkiraks were all built around 1000, the four squadrons in the Spinward Marches would constitute a BIG chunk of the surviving ones a century later.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

I agree with you about the Tianamen fluff text - they would have to be TL14 to be the pinnacle of naval design, the 3I have had almost 300 years to replace every TL13 BB with a TL14 class.
Since TL14 offers considerably more efficient hull armour, better screens and computer, not to mention weapon advances a TL13BB would struggle to cope with TL14 heavy cruisers, let alone TL14 BB.

 

[Carlobrand]

Check out the changes made to the Arleigh Burke class destroyer. They have grown by 5 feet and got 1500t heavier - still the same class though.

That's just water weight. Put them on a diuretic, they'll be back to trim in no time.

 

[rancke]

Also the Kokirraks is mentioned in Gateway to Destiny as being in service, circa 990, hence a TL14 design which was upgraded to TL 15?

That seems like you're making the deduction that the Kokirrak is a TL14 design. Doesn't the book state the (alleged :devil tech levels of the ships?


Hans