The Long Night?

[GypsyComet]

The Ziru Sirka then settled into hundreds of years of maintaining the status quo, with very little evidence of much new exploration beyond the Imperial border.

No official exploration, anyway. There is non-CT evidence that some of the borders, possibly those under the eye of only one or two of the Bureaux, leaked. In the case of Gashikan, that leak was a fountain.

 

[mike wightman]

I should have said 'official'.

The Vilani had a long tradition of exploration and trade, despite the ruling classes stagnating society some of this spirit would have remained.

But like I said earlier, I tend to go with primary sources for evidence before going to secondary authors and their interpretations.

That said it is also a truism that the primary sources are often written from an Imperial point of view with an unreliable narrator - hence the secrets they managed to hide away...

the actions of that governor off to Spinward show they had ambitions, perhaps they saught to use Vargr mercs to extend their own province and gain in their own prestige.

 

[whartung]

What limited the Vilani expansion was the range of the jump 1 drive - the consolidation wars were all about bringing the whole of explored (by the jump 1 Vilani) charted space under the hegemony of the jump 2 Vilani, the Vargr didn't discover the jump drive until after the consolidation wars concluded and the Ziru Sirka declared.

I honestly don't see how a J1 drive would have slowed anyone down.

Sure, J1 is slower than J2, but over any length of time (i.e. decades, centuries), the difference rinses out in the wash. Mind, I don't know the time scales involved.

But it's straight forward to create a J1 ship that can jump twice (or more). The capacity hit is minor compared to the overall capability. And while it takes twice as long to arrive, the real time is spent dirtside creating and growing colonies (through either basic discovery and expansion or conquest).

A couple extra weeks in travel isn't going quell that in any real way.

 

[mike wightman]

Empty hex jumps were not allowed back then.

 

[GypsyComet]

Empty hex jumps were not allowed back then.

As in "the Ziru Surka has buried the technique for doing so, and will bury anyone they catch trying to redevelop that technique."

 

[mike wightman]

As in the maths for it haven't been discovered until well into the Long Night era.

This is something that GT ISW goes into (p171) and caused a lot of discussion during the playtest...

Something else worthy of note - in interviews MWM mentioned that the Vilani jump 1 drive wasn't very good and used more fuel (this would be solved by an alien race and is that an interesting story); something similar is modelled in GT ISW for the early Terran jump drive in that there is a jump 0 drive that takes up more space than a jump 1 - no mention of increased fuel though.

 

[Condottiere]

The jump drive could be explained as being an early prototype, which would explain twice the size and a quarter parsec range.

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

Vargr or no Vargr, in earlier days it seems that there was little reason for the Vilani to be prevented, yet they did not go Spinward. The Vilani & Vargr DGP map along with much of the narrative shows the Vilani did not go that way. That map is dated -3500 and indicates this is as good as their borders got. This predates the Vargr discovery of Jump, so Vargr were not involved in making limiting Vilani expansion. Meeting the Zhodani was not impetus enough to get Vilani going Spinward either to bring these other psionic humans under their heel.

This is the reason I reject the simple analogy to Viking raiders. The canon material suggests something else stopped expansion. Could be as mundane as crappy planets or some scary heretofore unknown X-risk. Maybe the Zhos brainwashed the Vilani. Guesses?

The answer to your conundrum is twofold:

1. The goal of the Consolidation Wars Era Vilani was not to expand as far and fast as they could, but simply to flush out any competition and eliminate them by incorporation or annihilation. Once that was accomplished (via the subjugation of the Vegans), the job was done, and expansion ceased. It's also likely that the final size was determined by a rough estimate of how far cohesion could be maintained at Jump-2 communication rates.
   
   
2. The DGP map you are citing is ... inaccurate, and there are entire sectors of the Ziru Sirka unaccounted for in it.

No official exploration, anyway. There is non-CT evidence that some of the borders, possibly those under the eye of only one or two of the Bureaux, leaked. In the case of Gashikan, that leak was a fountain.

You have it backwards, actually. The DGP map that everyone here is sourcing is the one that is off; there is plenty of CT evidence that the Ziru Sirka at its greatest extent was considerably larger than the one DGP portrayed.

Consider:

1. The map provided in DGP's Vilani & Vargr is effectively a copy of the one provided in GDW's earlier Solomani module. The difference (besides the fact that the V&V map is more detailed) is that the Solomani map portrays the Ziru Sirka at the time of its transformation into the Rule of Man in -2204 (AD 2315), while the DGP map claims to be of the empire at its maximum extent (about -3500).
   
   
2. CT's Library Data on the Ziru Sirka states that it had lost significant territory to coreward and trailing by the time the Terrans contacted them, so we know both maps cannot be true.
   
   
3. In both maps, Marhaban (the Bwap homeworld) is situated outside the boundary of Imperial space. Since we know the Bwaps were contacted by the Vilani well before the founding of the Ziru Sirka, and no known races were left out of it at the beginning, we can deduce that any map portraying them as outside of it is of the later imperium. Also of note is that Marhaban is outside the trailing edge of imperial space, meaning that it reinforces point #2, above.
   
   
4. The CT Vargr module states that the governor who hired the first Vargr mercenaries was in charge of Corridor, Provence and Deneb Sectors. While both maps do show a small region of Corridor in the Ziru Sirka, as well as a tiny portion of Provence, Deneb is shown as far outside the imperial border.

It's also worth noting that the imperial border as portrayed in the maps stops well shy of Gashikan, despite the fact that canon states the Yileans were contacted by the Vilani during the Consolidation Wars period (-4400), and as such were certainly (and happily, as far as they were concerned) incorporated into the Vilani Imperium. This also reinforces point #2. The only reason they are not included into the above list is because they are not a CT creation.

Did the Zhodani learn of the existence of the Ziru Sirka via the Vargr...

No, from the Luriani, actually. At least one caravan of Luriani drifted into Zhodani space around -4100, no doubt fleeing the chaos of the Consolidation Wars. It must have occurred to them to mention to the Zhodani exactly who it was they were fleeing from.

The Zhodani also had less pleasant dealings with the Loeskalth (aka the Sky Raiders), who were pillaging their way around Far Frontiers Sector from around -4100 to -3107. If there was any information exchange between the two antagonists during that thousand year period, the Zhodani would have learned about why the Loeskalth were there, and who were behind it.

The Zhodani also could have encountered the Vilani on their own. The CT Zhodani module states that, prior to becoming obsessed with the galactic core, Zhodani scouting expeditions ranged far beyond settled space (the galactic rim is mentioned). With that in mind, it's entirely possible that Zhodani scouts made surreptitious trips to the edge of the Ziru Sirka's Makhidkarun Bureau space. Not revealing themselves to other populations is a modus operandi of theirs (ask the Darrians, they'll verify), so it is not at all unlikely to imagine them knowing all about the Vilani for centuries before the Vilani knew anything about them.

 

[whartung]

Empty hex jumps were not allowed back then.

Yup, ok, fair enough.

 

[mike wightman]

There is one problem with invoking the Luriani - they are not CT canon, and nor are they unique canon in that there are at least three different versions of them...

 

[GypsyComet]

You have it backwards, actually. The DGP map that everyone here is sourcing is the one that is off; there is plenty of CT evidence that the Ziru Sirka at its greatest extent was considerably larger than the one DGP portrayed.

An interesting argument. I will hold to my statement that the borders were leaky, though. Some traffic was flowing across those borders even as they supposedly contracted.

 

[vegas]

[*]The DGP map you are citing is ... inaccurate, and there are entire sectors of the Ziru Sirka unaccounted for in it.

Thank you for your post. I had not noticed the discrepancy before and you got me to dig in and look closer. The MT map clearly does not agree with CT canon. In addition to the evidence you site, there is more:

The last war [between Vland and the civilized states on its borders] ended in -4045, and Vilani dating begins at this point. With no exterior threats, the Pax Vilanica lasted for nearly 1200 years; at its height, attained soon after the end of the wars, the First lmperium contained 27 sectors and over 15,000 worlds.

The MT map dates the height of ZS to -3500 rather than ca. -4045. But in addition to the half millennium difference in dates, some quick estimating says the MT dot map is at least 5000 systems shy of the 15,000 figure in CT - thats 9ish sectors of systems there. (I know, the word changed from worlds to systems, but Traveller is about 1 main world per system, so that isn't going to be a way to weasle out of the problem.)

I'm guessing the error creeps in in part because there are 27 sectors touched on the MT map, but there are not nearly enough systems there.

 

[Condottiere]

I don't think I've ever seen a clear explanation why you can't jump into an empty hex.

It could range from practical, the default manoeuvre drives don't work, to lack of a large enough gravity well to anchor astronavigation.

 

[mike wightman]

Sidebar page 171 GT ISW.

The mathematics of jump navigation is much simpler when there is a
large mass, a star or very massive planet, in normal space close to each
end of the jump. During the Interstellar Wars era, neither Terran nor
Imperial navigators are able to plan a jump that starts or ends in deep
interstellar space, far away from any such massive object.

 

[whartung]

Sidebar page 171 GT ISW.

Yup, that's what I read.

It's a great explanation for this, not worth quibbling over.

 

[Condottiere]

If it's a necessity, rather than just a lighthouse, you would need external gravity to create an exit.

But do you need external gravity to create an entrance?

 

[GypsyComet]

If it's a necessity, rather than just a lighthouse, you would need external gravity to create an exit.

But do you need external gravity to create an entrance?

It is conceivable that Vilani jump math required one or both, but I prefer the idea that navigational fixes are the issue. It isn't so much the gravity well at the end as it is the precision with which you know where that gravity well is. Known waypoints out in the dark hexes take effort and resources to find the first time. Effort and resources that are clearly evident in the adjacent systems, allowing the Vilani to control access to the "secret" waypoints, or at least try to.
The Terrans were both better at observational astronomy and better at mobilizing it to new locations, allowing them to find deep space waypoints in something closer to real time. This would later lead to deep space jumps without gravity waypoints, but when that actually happened is open to debate if the only source is GT.
(Yes, my bias is showing.)

 

[mike wightman]

Not quite limited to GT ISW

The idea of fixing jumps to following jump routes and ban empty hex jumps is to tie in with the Imperium and Dark Nebula board games.

Now here is the interesting bit - we know when the math/technology for empty hex jumps was 'introduced'...

Jump Technology: The use of the exploration ship within the area of the Dark Nebula has resulted in increased understanding of the theory of jump drives, and can be used to enhance jump abilities. Any of the player's ships may now jump up to four hexes without using a printed jump route, but must then cease jump movement for the remainder of the movement phase and becomes disrupted.

This is an upgrade that may be earned during the exploration of the Dark Nebula - which is set during the Solomani/Aslan conflict.

 

[Condottiere]

I have no objection to adding some complexity and difficulty to jumping, I just like clear rules and plausible reasons as to why.

 

[whartung]

I have no objection to adding some complexity and difficulty to jumping, I just like clear rules and plausible reasons as to why.

The ISW sidebar was pretty clear.

Apparently the mathematics of navigation are "simpler" near large gravity wells. The difference is apparently enough that without the gravity well, the math leads to enough errors to cause a misjump.

It could be related to both ends. The math is easier when starting and ending in a large gravity well. Meaning that even if you could jump in to deep space (where accuracy is kind of a "who cares"), jump out of deep space is equally fraught with irregularity, discrepancy and error. To the point that for routine commercial civilian and military traffic, it's simply not practical, and, besides, the navigation software isn't set up for it anyway.

No doubt research is/has been done to try to get around this limitation. Demonstrably, it's taking a long time to do it.

Now, it could be that the Vilani simply DON'T research it. J2 is "good enough". But it could be an interesting thread for the upstart, free thinking Terrans to be heavily working on it, since they're so hindered by it.