The Most Serious T5 Problems

[Supplement Four]

The draft text (page 202; the draft text is on the CD) has a simple rule for determining when reloads happen. It does not require counting bullets. However, if you want to track reloads, this is a way to do it. Perhaps it should go back in; however, I'm not sure if it will increase average satisfaction across all owners of T5.

I didn't buy the CD, only the book. I'd like to see that rule, though. Would you (or someone) mind posting it?

As far as SnapFire goes: pistols qualify as automatic weapons, don't they?

I wouldn't say so unless we're talking about a fully automatic machine pistol (which, I see, GunMaker will create).

Semi-Automatic pistols are single shot weapons, not capable of burst fire or full auto fire and thus not elligible for any attack type except Aimed Fire.

Remember, the requirement for both SnapFire and AutoFire are the same: both require the weapon to be capable of burst or full auto.



EDIT: Look at page 256: Since a semi-automatic pistol (also called an auto pistol or "automatic") fires one bullet per pull of the trigger, it's a Single fire weapon, not capable of Burst fire or Full auto, and therefore not elligbile for SnapFire or AutoFire.

Revolvers don't, and I assume launchers don't.

But...even if it became wonky and semi-auto pistols were allowed SnapFire. As you say, revolvers certainly do not qualify for SnapFire.

Then, we'd have the question: Why can I use my semi-auto pistol with SnapFire but not the revolver?

That wouldn't make sense at all.

We've done some hand-to-hand combat in T5 games, and most of it is movement -- running towards a bad guy, running away from a bad guy -- and it's largely role-played, since my players like it that way. And I use the brawling mechanic when they start trading blows, but I grant mods based on what they are doing, what the environment is like, what footing they're on...

What about the problem of one character fighting three enemies of like capability, where the character is a huge favorite to win the fight?

Rocky Balboa fights three Apollo Creed clones, all at one time, and Rocky is the favorite to win the battle. It's a 75% chance that Rocky will win.

That's a messed up mechanic.

 

[Supplement Four]

p.260, Category Body Weapons, Code Fi, Descriptor Fists, Range R, H1 Blow, D1 =C1

So the average human PC will inflict 7 points of damage type 'blow' for a firm punch.

A severity 3 wound going by the Injury table (p.222). This is kinda whacky, as the average damage you can expect from a knife is also 7, but that will only be a severity 2 wound, because you divide Cuts by 3, not 2.

The lesson for today? Don't bring a knife to a brawl, unless you have less that STR 7.

(And for Strephon's sake don't bring a pistol, only 1D damage after all.)

Ah...gotcha. I see.

And, it also looks like Fists can do 1D damage.

Problem 1: Fists can do damage equal to STR, or Fists can do 1D damage.

Why would you use 1D damage if your STR was 6+?



Problem 2: Either way, Fists do more damage, or the same damage, as a gunshot from a pistol.

 

[robject]

I didn't buy the CD, only the book. I'd like to see that rule, though. Would you (or someone) mind posting it?

Reloading
Ammunition for weapons is counted in Loads. Specific ammunition counting is not required and Reloading is automatic if Speed= 1 or less.
Most weapons require reloading after three Rounds of firing.
Launchers Load= one Shot.
Multi-Launcher Load = three Shots.
MachineGuns. Notice that MachineGuns automatically reload if Still or Walking.
Energy Projectors do not require reloading within the context of a battle.
Spray Projectors Load= 3 Shots.

Semi-Automatic pistols are single shot weapons, not capable of burst fire or full auto fire and thus not elligible for any attack type except Aimed Fire.

Remember, the requirement for both SnapFire and AutoFire are the same: both require the weapon to be capable of burst or full auto.

SnapFire is multiple unaimed operations of the weapon with significantly less accuracy. The attacker is using a weapon capable of burst, automatic, or continuous fire. (p.214)

And here it is: it is reasonable that pistols are capable of Snapfire. Therefore, it seems that "continuous" includes semi-automatic.

I think the problem may be errata rather than broken, in this particular case, wouldn't you say?

 

[cuTTer]

Ah...gotcha. I see.

And, it also looks like Fists can do 1D damage.

In the same way that a PGMP-11 can do Pen-5 Burn-3 or 8D.

Initially I thought the 'complicated' damage profile was for PCs and the Hits (v1) system for quick NPC damage, but really, who's to say?

 

[cuTTer]

Roll your SAN... lose a point anyway...

Either way, Fists do more damage, or the same damage, as a gunshot from a pistol.

Yeah, that's why I'm rewriting GunMaker in CTs image for my own purposes, no frills P-5, 3D.

It's madness, I'll grant you, but I guess it counts as 'solo play'...

 

[Supplement Four]

Reloading
Most weapons require reloading after three Rounds of firing.

Interesting. That's close to what I suggest in my T5 Ammo Fix (link in sig).

SnapFire is multiple unaimed operations of the weapon with significantly less accuracy. The attacker is using a weapon capable of burst, automatic, or continuous fire. (p.214)

And here it is: it is reasonable that pistols are capable of Snapfire. Therefore, it seems that "continuous" includes semi-automatic.

No, it doesn't. Check page 256. We are told specifically that "continuous" refers to Fully Automatic fire. The weapon fires as long as the trigger is held down. Semi-auto pistols don't do that.

I think the problem may be errata rather than broken, in this particular case, wouldn't you say?

The only way it's an errata problem is if the definitions of the attack types on page 214 are not correct. (We already know that there's a problem between the definition of SnapFire on page 214 and the table on page 218.)

Either way, it's unusable as-is. Unless you want to have your single shot pistols and rifles chosing either to attack or move, but not both, in a round.

Especially when page 211 (Under The Battle) tells us that every combatant gets the opportunity to use a weapon and move every round.

 

[robject]

No, it doesn't. Check page 256. We are told specifically that "continuous" refers to Fully Automatic fire. The weapon fires as long as the trigger is held down. Semi-auto pistols don't do that.

Okay, there's one we could pin down. to what, then, does "automatic" refer?

 

[Supplement Four]

Okay, there's one we could pin down. to what, then, does "automatic" refer?

"Automatic" in the gun world means different things, depending on the weapon. An automatic pistol is gunspeak for a semi-automatic pistol.
Additional terms sometimes used as synonyms for a semi-automatic pistol are automatic pistol, self-loading pistol, autopistol, and autoloading pistol.

When you pull the trigger on your Glock, what happens? One round is fired.

By that definition alone, pistols are Single shot weapons, per the definiton on page 256.



In order to qualify for either the SnapFire or AutoFire attack, the weapon must be capable of either burst fire or fully automatic fire. Thus, most all handguns and many rifles do not qualify.

There are pistols (usually called machine pistols) out in the real world capable of burst or full auto fire, but normally, when we speak of an autopistol, we're talking about a semi-automatic, one-shot-per-pull-of-the-trigger, handgun. See page 244, under Pistols, for similar info in the game.

 

[Supplement Four]

Assault Weapon Bang Damage


Assault weapons do Bang damage, according to GunMaker page 252 and the Assault weapon example (the AC-7) on page 240.

According to page 222, Bang damage will cause a character to go deaf for a number of rounds equal to the damage unless some sort of sound-proofing protection is worn.

So...all the African Pirates on Somalia are deaf and cannot communicate with each other verbally for a number of minutes every time they fire their AK-47s?



Logically, this damage would be applied only to the user of the assault weapon, since the source of the sound is the weapon. The rules aren't suggesting that this Bang damage be applied to the target, which coule be 150 meters away or more, are they?



And, why is it that only weapons labled "Assault" deliver this Bang damage? An ACR or something like an M-15 Carbine wouldn't also have it (not according to the examples on page 240).


I think Bang damage is broken.

 

[Supplement Four]

Slash Damage


T5 seems to have made Blades uber-powerful. Slash damage is applied per turn.

Does that mean if you roll a successful attack with a blade that does Slash-2 damage that your target takes 2D damage every combat round!

And a pistol does 1D damage one time, when it hits....?

It will be hard to survive a blade hit in this game, if I'm reading this correctly.

 

[pendragonman]

Slash Damage


T5 seems to have made Blades uber-powerful. Slash damage is applied per turn.

Does that mean if you roll a successful attack with a blade that does Slash-2 damage that your target takes 2D damage every combat round!

And a pistol does 1D damage one time, when it hits....?

It will be hard to survive a blade hit in this game, if I'm reading this correctly.

Well, that does it.


Break out the cutlasses mateys! It's a pirate's life for me! Yo Ho!

 

[Supplement Four]

Well, that does it.


Break out the cutlasses mateys! It's a pirate's life for me! Yo Ho!

"Sir, you are about to start your duel. Would you prefer the automatic pistol, or the saber?"

"Let's see. Hm. The autopistol does 1D damage, and the saber does 2D damage every round after a hit. Hell! Give me the saber!"

 

[cuTTer]

Assault Weapon Bang Damage


Assault weapons do Bang damage, according to GunMaker page 252 and the Assault weapon example (the AC-7) on page 240.

According to page 222, Bang damage will cause a character to go deaf for a number of rounds equal to the damage unless some sort of sound-proofing protection is worn.

So...all the African Pirates on Somalia are deaf and cannot communicate with each other verbally for a number of minutes every time they fire their AK-47s?



Logically, this damage would be applied only to the user of the assault weapon, since the source of the sound is the weapon. The rules aren't suggesting that this Bang damage be applied to the target, which coule be 150 meters away or more, are they?



And, why is it that only weapons labled "Assault" deliver this Bang damage? An ACR or something like an M-15 Carbine wouldn't also have it (not according to the examples on page 240).


I think Bang damage is broken.

p.36
"Assault. The weapon is designed for use on the battlefield by soldiers. It is characterized by an ability to hit person - size targets at moderate ranges (Range 4 = 500 meters) and by bullets and explosive projectiles. For example, Assault Rifle."

I think the key phrase there is 'explosive projectiles' which I envisage as an integral 40 mil, but MIGHT be intended to be explosive ammunition a la the old definition of ACR. Hard to be sure.

++ so the bang is at the target end, not the user...

 

[pendragonman]

"Sir, you are about to start your duel. Would you prefer the automatic pistol, or the saber?"

"Let's see. Hm. The autopistol does 1D damage, and the saber does 2D damage every round after a hit. Hell! Give me the saber!"

Like everything else, the weapons currently in the book have design issues. Try looking at Rob's list of CT weapons ported to T5. There is a thread here somewhere...

Revolver on that list does 2D. With that the case then either the pistol in the book currently is either a 5-6mm (a 22 cal) or using half-loads.

OTOH, Rob's list leaves out autopistol.

Of course, still go with the cutlass if it is cut him once, do 2D turn after turn...

 

[cuTTer]

Slash Damage


T5 seems to have made Blades uber-powerful. Slash damage is applied per turn.

Does that mean if you roll a successful attack with a blade that does Slash-2 damage that your target takes 2D damage every combat round!

And a pistol does 1D damage one time, when it hits....?

It will be hard to survive a blade hit in this game, if I'm reading this correctly.

I hadn't noticed that before, it seems to be the only damage expressed in those terms. In fact I hadn't really processed any of that corner of p.225...

So the average knife (2D) will render the average PC (777xxx) unconscious on the first round (assuming a hit, no armour), seriously wounded on the second round and dead on the third round. Neat.

All we really need are Eldar style Shuriken Catapults (Gauss gun, bullet-x, slash-y).

Hmm.

 

[robject]

"Automatic" in the gun world means different things, depending on the weapon.

In this case, I suspect it depends on the author of T5 too!

In order to qualify for either the SnapFire or AutoFire attack, the weapon must be capable of either burst fire or fully automatic fire.

No, the weapon must be capable of "burst, automatic, or continuous fire" (p.214).

That's three categories, not two. So, on page 214, what does "automatic" refer to, if it's not referring to "continuous" fire?

Whatever it is, it is certainly not saying "burst, continuous, or continuous fire", or "burst, full auto, or full auto fire". In other words, on page 214, automatic is not the same as continuous. If page 214's continuous is "Full", then page 214's use of "automatic" is not "Full"; most likely it's auto-loading or whatever, which includes typical pistols and rifles.


Page 256 similarly has three categories, which are better defined than page 214 (and none of which have the word "automatic" in them, by the way):

Single = one shot per pull. e.g. Pistols, Rifles.
Burst = three shots per pull. e.g. Gauss weapons.
Full = Continuous. e.g. Combat-designated weapons.

So, there's a confusion of terms, here.

Errata.

 

[BytePro]

Don't have T5 and not a fan of variable dice, but a few observations:

Aimed fire is when one chooses to concentrate on firing, thus no 'movement' (significant, i.e. between bands).
Snapfire is firing while moving.
Automatic simply refers to weapon readying for next firing.

Round times are explicitly undefined - 'average' minute round is just a 'Benchmark'. Probably used most for movement design.

NPC 10-pt damage is an option, with other versions available.

Blade cuts should typically allow messier injury than single bullets and fist strikes. However, bullets should have distinct advantages regards dodging and blocking, and useful range. I am reminded of a certain Indiana Jones scene...

Simple range bands will not be workable on close inspection - but, IMO, the T5 combat mechanics were never designed to prevail against such scrutiny. Seems more a turn based gaming system, and, as someone posted earlier, detail is inconsistently dealt with.

Even with interpretation weighted to make the rules make sense, the RAW is not only unclear, but will invariably leave situations improperly or simply not handled. Errata is expected. Mixing the task system and combat system in the spirit of supporting unique or roleplay situations will likely give a 'playable' system, though. (Such as handling firing black powder rifles while riding horseback.) This is what I have come to expect of all the Traveller rulesets. <shrug>

 

[taustin]

(First: I agree this seems quite broken. But.)

I don't think that this:

This means that each fighter has a 1-in-4 chance each combat round of being the character that receives the damage.

Necessarily means this:

A PC fighting three enemies of equal skill, and the PC is the favorite to win the fight?

The first part is only true until one of the three opponents is down, isn't it? Then it goes to 1-in-3 chance, then 50/50, but at that point, statistically, the one who started alone is very likely injured, and thus at a disadvantage.

(But, again, it looks broken to me, just maybe not as broken as you say.)

 

[Bloo]

No Combat Skills for Rogues, Too Many for Scholars

No Fighting, Stealth, or Gambling skills available for rogues (Forbidden as a muster benefit is not acceptable, IMO).

In contrast, Scholar can choose to roll every skill on a table that give Fighting as a result 50% of the time.

 

[aramis]

From my perspective, in descending order...

1. The whole task system. xd6 vs TN really is why I quit playing TFT. My players and I both hated it in T4. And it needs...

2. 1 skill per year baseline. Which leads to the need for...

3. the skills/knowledges system. Which is convoluted, confusing, and just better avoided by fewer levels per term.

4. The poor organization of the rulebook.

5. misplaced complexity. It's complex in the wrong places. For CT/MT, I can print out the two-page spread, and turn them loose. For T5, their eyes glass over, and that's before realizing they need to actually know stuff in order to generate a character.

6. Poorly organized, lacking index. Only way I find stuff is using Acrobat Reader's search feature.