The New Official Traveller Universe (NOTU)

[rancke]

OK, I'm tired of the struggle, so instead I'm going to embrace the changes brought by T5.

So, the year is 300. Porfiria is on the throne. Cutting edge medical science has just come up with forcegrown clones and memory upload. What happens next? How does that influence the history of the Third Imperium?

One thing's for sure, I don't believe that Porfiria will choose not to avail herself of the available life-extending options.


Hans

 

[Spinward Scout]

It doesn't - at least that the Imperial public knows of...

 

[rancke]

It doesn't - at least that the Imperial public knows of...

Not plausible.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

She realises that cloning herself and uploading her personality every generation will lead to conflict with those who don't have access to this technology (perhaps all the nobles - dukes and above also have access?) and so decides that the clone body will be altered to appear different, sometimes changing the sex to maintain the facade.
The clones are raised as a pseudo family until it is time for the replacement to be chosen and the personality wiped for the download.

This maintains the Emperor list - it's just all the same person. The only break in continuity is the civil war.

New twist on the Rebellion - when Strephon is assassinated his personality is downloaded into a replacement identical clone, Varian and Lucan...

 

[robject]

Porfiria keeps a ready supply of medical clones ready, and reigns as empress for about 816 years.

No Barracks Emperors.
No Strephon.
Dulinor assassinates her and wipes out her clone bank in 1116.

...what?

 

[Murphy]

Family Archives in the Imperium? Did I miss something?

 

[mike wightman]

T5 re-writing the OTU with its new technology...

 

[martletsquire]

O.M.G.

Year 300?

Body clones, mind swapping, life extensions?

That ain't raight, that jest ain't raight, y'all.

I think I'll go play Russian Roulette with my FGMP15 now...

 

[robject]

You get an increasingly statist empire as the Moot, dukes, counts, marquises, and barons become extremely long-lived. Similarly for the wealthy. The un-wealthy get caught into a trap of not having enough capital to create wealth, with the Everliving consolidating all capital and ruling with an iron fist.

Maybe you get something like WH40K. Or something else strongly dystopian. The Imperium becomes very dark, indeed. Can you imagine political struggles between people who have centuries of experience and networking, and enemies as old as they? Sounds like a nightmare.

 

[robject]

Clones Are Individuals

So when Porfiria creates a Relict Clone, it waits in the Vat until she dies. Then it is force-grown to life stage 3, implanted with the Most Recent Personality Recording (whenever that may be), and decanted. It retains her personality, memories, and skills, but whereas the Previous Porfiria may have been, say, 90 years old, this one is 18.

And, while in theory the old body will be destroyed, there's no guarantee that someone won't slip up there and the Previous Porfiria will keep living. Of course, destruction means that the old Porfiria will indeed experience death, even if her Relict has her personality, memories, and skills. Her consciousness is not moved into a new body.

Clones Are Heirs

Given these things, there is reasonable doubt that Relicts are legally entitled to their ancestor's seat of power. They're considered children of the original. Obviously in the OTU they typically are not allowed to retain power (though some titles can be passed down, right?). Therefore, it seems that the Imperium considers clones to be heirs, rather than continuations.

BUT... of course, laws cannot be simple, or else there would be no drama. Case in point: Life Insurance clones. So things are ... complicated. Sounds like real life.

So empires where the Throne is heritable, a ruler could seemingly rule for centuries.

 

[Quint]

LOL - Yeah, this does get tricky. My long-running "CyberTraveller" game had a scifi mashup and ended up with a similar sort of questions to answer.

I ended up with a post Civil War Imperium they decided to "go back to the well" in order to prevent a new conflict so each new 'Emperor' was actually a clone of Cleon I and styled the "the Prince Regent" as a political compromise. I seem to recall there also being some analog of the WH40K "Emperor on the Golden Throne" as well but I'd have to did into my old notes to see what that was all about.

In general I can see that there could and likely would be real political pressure to disallow inheritance by clones. That said, it evidently isn't an issue from what we know of Norris and whatshername, his true-daughter.

I think, post-Psi Suppressions you could make the argument that the personality transfers are disallowed as being "akin to psionics". They may have also been disallowed before that simply because of the horrible results that occurred with bad transfer and poorly understood prototechnology.

D.

 

[rancke]

And, while in theory the old body will be destroyed, there's no guarantee that someone won't slip up there and the Previous Porfiria will keep living. Of course, destruction means that the old Porfiria will indeed experience death, even if her Relict has her personality, memories, and skills. Her consciousness is not moved into a new body.

That is, of course, the major problem with this method of achieving immortality; you don't. Personally, I think it's a very good objection. But I've read any number of books where people seem to consider it a lot better than nothing.

Given these things, there is reasonable doubt that Relicts are legally entitled to their ancestor's seat of power. They're considered children of the original.

Profiria makes the laws. Or a clone child could inherit. If the noble has other children, introduce the principle of ultimogeniture. And keep in mind that memory upload at TL13 is another radical difference between the OOTU and the NOTU.


Hans

 

[Theophilus]

So empires where the Throne is heritable, a ruler could seemingly rule for centuries.

Providing she has no other children, would a natural born inherit the throne as the older sibling?

Actually reminds me of the book series "The Eternal Emperor", He just keeps coming back!

 

[Ulsyus]

So empires where the Throne is heritable, a ruler could seemingly rule for centuries.

If they were gods, immensely powerful in themselves, or had a legion or impervious warbots to back them up. Otherwise they'd need the agreement of their supporters. The social contract, however it develops in a state, is the thing that supports the leader.

Look at what happened in East Germany at the end of the Cold War. Erik Honecker was an immensely powerful leader, but when he lost the support of the political structure he had climbed and led for decades, he fell rapidly.

If the Emperess can live forever, what about the Moot members who are required to confirm the power of the throne? What happens to the offspring of the Emperess? How is an heir designated after that system takes place? Would they wait through various bodies until some cataclysm clears the way for their rise? What about the security system commanders who keep order for the leaders - do they get a bite of the cherry too? What about their subordinates: will they all just accept a shortened life because the Queen wants to live forever and needs to offer similar to everyone above them to achieve that? The masses?

A social contract needs most of the members to agree to it, otherwise revolution waits eagerly. So maybe a "lifetime" is available to rulers to rule, but if they want to keep living then they have to hand over to their heir at the appointed hour. Then they get a nice retirement.

So a Relict or a Med Clone would be acceptable in the case of an untimely death or critically disabling accident, but choosing to have one's thought pattern deliberately implanted in a clone to avoid the effects of old age wouldn't?

 

[Carlobrand]

If they were gods, immensely powerful in themselves, or had a legion or impervious warbots to back them up. Otherwise they'd need the agreement of their supporters. The social contract, however it develops in a state, is the thing that supports the leader.

Look at what happened in East Germany at the end of the Cold War. Erik Honecker was an immensely powerful leader, but when he lost the support of the political structure he had climbed and led for decades, he fell rapidly.

If the Emperess can live forever, what about the Moot members who are required to confirm the power of the throne? What happens to the offspring of the Emperess? How is an heir designated after that system takes place? Would they wait through various bodies until some cataclysm clears the way for their rise? What about the security system commanders who keep order for the leaders - do they get a bite of the cherry too? What about their subordinates: will they all just accept a shortened life because the Queen wants to live forever and needs to offer similar to everyone above them to achieve that? The masses?

A social contract needs most of the members to agree to it, otherwise revolution waits eagerly. So maybe a "lifetime" is available to rulers to rule, but if they want to keep living then they have to hand over to their heir at the appointed hour. Then they get a nice retirement.

So a Relict or a Med Clone would be acceptable in the case of an untimely death or critically disabling accident, but choosing to have one's thought pattern deliberately implanted in a clone to avoid the effects of old age wouldn't?

One word: Stalin.

 

[rancke]

If they were gods, immensely powerful in themselves, or had a legion or impervious warbots to back them up. Otherwise they'd need the agreement of their supporters. The social contract, however it develops in a state, is the thing that supports the leader.

What makes you think an Empress of the Imperium wouldn't be able to get the supporters she needs?

If the Emperess can live forever, what about the Moot members who are required to confirm the power of the throne?

They get to live forever too.

What happens to the offspring of the Emperess?

They get to live forever too, or the Empress gets rid of them. Or one of them succeeds in assassinating his mother and prevent the activation of her clone -- whereupon HE gets to be the Eternal Emperor.

How is an heir designated after that system takes place?

Ultimogeniture.

Would they wait through various bodies until some cataclysm clears the way for their rise? What about the security system commanders who keep order for the leaders - do they get a bite of the cherry too? What about their subordinates: will they all just accept a shortened life because the Queen wants to live forever and needs to offer similar to everyone above them to achieve that? The masses?

You're missing the point. Whoever wins a power struggle gets to use these technologies. It may not be Porfiria, it may not be one of her heirs, it may not be any of the archdukes. But someone is going to win.

I've always thought Moon's solution was rather implausible.


Hans

 

[Ulsyus]

The picture you're painting seems rather Orwellian.

I refer again to East Germany as an example of how quickly the whole thing can collapse as soon as the authority of the figure at the top is not accepted.

 

[rancke]

The picture you're painting seems rather Orwellian.

I refer again to East Germany as an example of how quickly the whole thing can collapse as soon as the authority of the figure at the top is not accepted.

I refer again to my argument that someone is going to win. Sooner or later (and I think sooner rather than later) someone will come along who will use these technologies.


Hans

 

[Murphy]

Actually, if anagathics didn't break the OTU, why is this going to?

I guess anagathics don't protect you from being assassinated, but neither does the clone lab, at least not completely.

 

[mike wightman]

Isn't there supposed to be cultural bias against Imperial nobles using anagathics?

It's also well known they have such long lives thanks to their Vilani genes...

You could always just use the ban hammer and say this eternal emperor technology either:

hasn't been discovered in the OTU despite it being in T5

or

it has been outlawed (weak)