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The New Official Traveller Universe (NOTU)

Actually, if anagathics didn't break the OTU, why is this going to?

I guess anagathics don't protect you from being assassinated, but neither does the clone lab, at least not completely.

Good point.


Providing she has no other children, would a natural born inherit the throne as the older sibling?

Actually reminds me of the book series "The Eternal Emperor", He just keeps coming back!

I've seen somewhere and it was probably a house rule from a TU that included clones that Imperial Law defined a clone as a true son or daughter of the original, so yeah if there's an older sibling and the law of inheritance is Primogeniture based then the older heir will inherit the title. But like I said this was an ATU rule.
 
Actually, if anagathics didn't break the OTU, why is this going to?
If you ignore the ramification of the early arrival of these technologies the same way the ramifications of anagathics (and just improved health care for that matter) have been ignored, I guess it won't. All it takes is to not use the technologies except in a few rare (PC anventure related) cases and to make it believable that the technologies are largely not being used.

Yep, that's all it will take. :p


Hans
 
There are ways to limit this eternal emperor:

Cloning (mainly for full beings, and mainly if cells are taken from an adult being, rememeber Strephont clones were told in MT to be raised from his birth) might have side effects (remember Dolly aged prematurely). They may go from illensses, to unsanity, to anything you can think about.

Braintaping may also be unreliable (and quite so). After all any taping or recording may have transcription errors, and some parts of the brain (e.g. traumatic events) may be unreacheable due to mental blocks, but still affect behavior.

Also loading the clone's brain with them may have transcription errors (mainly if the clone has had any experiences of his own, something quite probable unless they are newly built and artificially aged to maturity, which can have quite a lot of side effects too).

So, such a clone as to feign immortality may be prone to illenss, prematurely aging, insanity, etc... Probably enough so to dismiss it as a ruler.
 
All that does is move the problem forward to 700 when the TL has advanced to make this a super reliable technology.

I may actually post something on the what will make us like T5 thread - the law of unforeseen consequence is making for quite a radically different setting for the OTU.

The 3I as a transhumanist setting - who would ever have guessed..
 
Cloning (mainly for full beings, and mainly if cells are taken from an adult being, rememeber Strephon's clones were told in MT to be raised from his birth)
That's because in the Old OTU, forcegrown clones were not possible at TL15.

...might have side effects (remember Dolly aged prematurely). They may go from illensses, to unsanity, to anything you can think about.
Is that how T5 says TL13 cloning works?

Braintaping may also be unreliable (and quite so). After all any taping or recording may have transcription errors, and some parts of the brain (e.g. traumatic events) may be unreacheable due to mental blocks, but still affect behavior.
Is that how T5 says TL13 braintaping works?

Also loading the clone's brain with them may have transcription errors (mainly if the clone has had any experiences of his own, something quite probable unless they are newly built and artificially aged to maturity, which can have quite a lot of side effects too).
Is that how T5 says TL13 braintaping works?


Hans
 
The picture you're painting seems rather Orwellian.

I refer again to East Germany as an example of how quickly the whole thing can collapse as soon as the authority of the figure at the top is not accepted.

From skimming the thread, I think that I prefer the earlier OTU, rather than this new one.
 
It's also well known they have such long lives thanks to their Vilani genes... ;)

Combined with antigeriatrics, which in T5 are available earlier, this with those bloodlines would enable nobles to live fairly lengthy productive lifetimes

All that does is move the problem forward to 700 when the TL has advanced to make this a super reliable technology

If advances in robotics didn't change attitudes sufficiently to overcome the expectations established as a result of the Shudusham accords, then wouldn't there be a similar level of cultural inertia WRT allowing the nobility to live forever?

Anyway, canon has dealt that concept a cruel blow.

T4 Pocket Empires p15:
However, change is commonly accepted as a good thing. New ideas from fresh minds are essential to keep a business from stagnating. Although nobles may be able to live for quite some time, there is strong social encouragement to prevent any one of them from ruling a family for too long. Liberal families understand the need to avoid the conservatism and infighting that power-mongering brings; the younger generations need to be given their chance. In darker families such power-mongering is kept in check by ambitious duels (in more open families) or dark corridor stabbings (in more poisonous families). Such infighting may be amongst the younger generations
only, acting as a method of 'weeding out' before they can attain power. Alternatively, it may be between young and old; the young seeking to 'create' job vacancies for themselves!

Then on p18:
Only rarely is an Archon below the age of 40 elected, and only rarely does an Archon not step down after the age of 60. Those in their Ruling years who are not lucky enough to have been elected Archon will still be suited for leadership in large areas of family governance. They are frequently given the posts of planetary governors, family investment managers or other positions suited to their years of economic and political experience.

While this doesn't refer to the throne itself, it is about the nobility at the dawn of the empire. While societies do evolve, some elements of do culture endure. What do you think?
 
... If advances in robotics didn't change attitudes sufficiently to overcome the expectations established as a result of the Shudusham accords, then wouldn't there be a similar level of cultural inertia WRT allowing the nobility to live forever? ...

Canon overall is a mixed bag. It's given us admirals and an archduke willing to assassinate an emperor. It's also given us guardsmen so fanatically loyal to an archduke that they'll participate in regicide and die to the last man to cover the archduke's escape. Some fleets abandon sectors to almost certain collapse at his word while others choose local needs over the needs of their Emperor. The people of Capital seem content follow a mad emperor who kills at least one person in his throne room.

I'm afraid, with that evidence, it could swing in either direction. I would be especially worried, though, if you encountered someone particularly charismatic and cunning.
 
The amount of stagnation and decadence this affords is enormous. If the same person (same mind) rules for centuries, the same old ideas are most likely to be entrenched for centuries. Succession is an important mechanism for replacing old ideas with new ones... So, in the 800's, for example, you'll still have an Empress with ideas from the 300's, woefully outdated, and totally terrified of change. When the Solomani rebel, their main selling point is "look, we replace our leaders every 10 years by elections [or a good old purge], unlike the inbred undead Vilani imperials with their clone-banks and fossilized ideas". This would be the Interstellar Wars all over again - dynamic Terran "David" smashing the stagnant, backwards-looking Vilani "Goliath".

Or you can take this to a "Sword & Sorcery" direction, with a ruling class of utterly decadent undead "sorcerer-kings" ruling over the proles from their floating palaces with an iron fist and magical-looking technology. Perfect for the plucky, cunning barbarian to dethrone with a two-handed sword (or a 12-gauge shotgun).
 
The amount of stagnation and decadence this affords is enormous. If the same person (same mind) rules for centuries, the same old ideas are most likely to be entrenched for centuries.
But if those ideas are that things need to be kept fresh? In The Sten Chronicles there is an Eternal Emperor, kept alive in a variant of this way (teethering on a spoiler here, but that much is fairly obvious from early on -- it's the details that are interesting). He is a very pragmatic person whose chief interest is to make things work. Of course, he is up against formidable forces of stagnation and entrenchment, and he doesn't always do well -- but he tries.

Not that I don't think that your view is more likely.


Hans
 
I'm afraid, with that evidence, it could swing in either direction.

Fair call. The thing that bothered my group the most though, and we're talking from when MT was released to even now, was the way the assassination wasn't foreshadowed by hints of increasing power for the Archdukes, and more releases about Dulinor being a man of the people who wanted to see the 3I do more for people on the worlds within it.

My current campaign is still only a couple of years after the FFW, so I don't have to make a hard decision either way just yet about what's going to happen to Strephon.

This would be the Interstellar Wars all over again - dynamic Terran "David" smashing the stagnant, backwards-looking Vilani "Goliath".

Yup, with you on that one!

But if those ideas are that things need to be kept fresh?...

Hans

Nice dichotomy: An eternal empress endlessly trying to keep things fresh.
 
Oh well, time to get to work on a Traveller - Eclipse Phase crossover.

This kind of personality transfer technology will transform the Traveller setting into something barely recognizable.

However, change is commonly accepted as a good thing. New ideas from fresh minds are essential to keep a business from stagnating. Although nobles may be able to live for quite some time, there is strong social encouragement to prevent any one of them from ruling a family for too long. Liberal families understand the need to avoid the conservatism and infighting that power-mongering brings; the younger generations need to be given their chance. In darker families such power-mongering is kept in check by ambitious duels (in more open families) or dark corridor stabbings (in more poisonous families). Such infighting may be amongst the younger generations
only, acting as a method of 'weeding out' before they can attain power. Alternatively, it may be between young and old; the young seeking to 'create' job vacancies for themselves!

I know this is canon from T4, but it's really just handwaving why geriatric oligarchs don't control everything. People who've spent their lives gaining power by fair means or foul aren't just going to give it up because change is good, the younger generation deserves a chance, or because they're stupid enough to accept a duel, allow lax security procedures, or not stomp out threats with ruthless efficiency. People stick with what works, especially where money and power are concerned. Change is uncertainty. The younger generation can serve faithfully, go found their own empire, or get stomped into dust like all the upstarts before them.

With personality transfers, there would be a fundamental disconnect between the people who have access to the technology and those who don't. Those who know an avatar of themselves will live on possibly for centuries will have a vastly different perspective than a person who sees life as growing up, getting married, having kids, retiring and dying. The aristocratic and wealthy classes will become true eternal oligarchs, accumulating money, power, and expertise while watching the lower classes struggle through life then die like little mayflies. Oligarch personalities would be hard to kill since they would no doubt establish safe havens where copies of their personalities could be reinstantiated. High tech worlds which give zero damns could easily fulfill this role. Imagine if Julius Caesar had personality copies in the care of trusted commanders throughout the Empire, and if the Roman Senate were the undying personality copies of the original senators filled with renewed youth and vigor every 75 years? It would change everything. Imagine if Queen Victoria or Chairman Mao had the same capability. The OTU will never be the same.

This could have been a powerful motivator for the Civil War. Olav hault Plankwell could've wanted to blow the whole pack of ancient worthies into radioactive slag just to get the Imperium out of their suffocating grip. It would be a good reason for his troops to follow him across the space Rubicon too, since the lower classes would most likely be pretty tired of it not to mention envious.

Other issues include having multiple copies of the same person operating independently. It doesn't matter is it's illegal or socially unacceptable, if it's possible it will happen. What if the Imperium faced 100 Ivan Wolfes in the Solomani Rim War instead of just the one? As if the Solomani won't clone their finest military minds in preparation for the next war? As if the Imperium won't do the same? What if the best most experienced non-coms and officers were recorded, duplicated and used to raise armies like the Clone Army in Star Wars? It is now possible in Traveller. Instant colonization of planets with copies of designer personalities in cloned bodies all happily working away for whichever power owns the project. Lonely people could have their dream spouse designed and decanted, not too expensive for someone who has multiple lifetimes of investments to buy it from an amoral megacorporation or high tech world. The Traveller Universe is not a moral place, and if these things are technologically possible they will happen.

I think this is a really bad idea, and placing handwavy restrictions on it is just a tatty band-aid which detracts from the suspension of disbelief even more. We would have to know exactly how it works to know if there are reliability problems with it, and even if there are, a tech level 15 society wouldn't just stop working on it when all the powerful people would want it.

If this is going to be a part of T5, then T5 needs to embrace nanotech, biotech, cybertech and transhumanism and adapt the reality of the OTU setting to them, or just wallow in a tar pit of excuses as to why these technologies exist but their consequences don't, a bit like how the Solomani are supposed to be masters of genetic engineering but with 1000 years of practice all they've done is NOTHING except create sentient dolphins and apes.
 
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Because I am "contrary"...

Here is a completely radical idea, perhaps and I get this a crazy new concept, but just maybe the T5 Core Rules book is not the Third Imperium Core Rules and in fact technologies that may be in the Big Black Book are not in the OTU's Third Imperium. :rolleyes:

Like I said radical concept disconnecting the mechanics/rules from the sandbox/setting. Still, I think this wild ass idea might preserve the beloved Third Imperium that we have all loved or at least know of since the days of yore and GDW and have new cool rules for non-OTU players and refs that may, gasp shock horror, attract new Travellers to the game.
 
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To those who actually know: is personality transfer technology in or being considered for the new T5 OTU? Are the BBB rules independent of the setting?
 
Does Greg P. Lee count?

To those who actually know: is personality transfer technology in or being considered for the new T5 OTU? Are the BBB rules independent of the setting?
Well, since a major character has a Wafer Jack and uses personality wafers at times in Greg's T5 Cirque Campaign book and I vetted him and Marc okayed the production and didn't say no, that yes, they are in the OTU canon. Also, it may come into play with activating Insurance clones since they are created with a Personality recording. But then the OTU has had such tech since that Professor in Adventure 6 in CT, so not that big a deal to see it codified into the fifth edition "ultimate" Traveller rules.
 
But then the OTU has had such tech since that Professor in Adventure 6 in CT, so not that big a deal to see it codified into the fifth edition "ultimate" Traveller rules.
Except that Professor Ricket's Personality Overlay Machine didn't upload memories, it hypnotised the subject to twist his own. Also, as of 1107 the technology was known only to the professor.


Hans
 
You mean the civilian version of this technology was known only to the professor.

Much like the discovery of the Cymberline chips was retconned to have been made by the military decades before the events of the adventure Signal GK... ;)
 
You mean the civilian version of this technology was known only to the professor.
Oh, I've always assumed that similar techniques might be known (as closely held secrets) to others. Not very many, though, at not for all that long; these sort of secrets tend to leak over time.

Anyway, the memory upload technology would need to be public knowledge in order for that life insurance bit to be available.


Hans
 
Yup, which changes the setting in a pretty major way.

Another thing this technology should be able to do is store the memories of the long dead until you need to resurrect them...
 
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