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MGT Only: The problem with Mongoose Traveller?

MgT core rules is an amazing job, and the rest of the rules books are a wealth of options for making your own game that are incredibly useful to have. With those products, I have no contention. How they have managed the Third Imperium is reprehensible.

I have no idea if they know anything about the 3I setting. So far, in just the Aliens books alone, Mongoose has turned the Solomani into a nation of racists instead of just a having a racist government, turned the Sword Worlders from viking inspired to sexist neo-nazi's, they turned the Darrians from aliens into elves, the Aslan into lion-headed toons, and the Vargar into dog-headed jokes. They have also been subtlety making small changes to cannon that have wide reaching effects, and seeming not caring one whit about it. To me it seems they care nothing about the award winning setting that has come to be seen as Traveller in the gaming community's eyes. THANK THE GODS they got an author that knows the setting to do the Zho and upcoming Droyne book, because it has become obvious to me, that while they can write great rules for a game, they cant handle a setting for beans.

Just so you folks know, the above is my opinion, and me venting long withheld anger over what I have read in the 3I setting materials from Mongoose products, and in no way reflects the opinions or attitudes of the rest of the staff of the COTI board or FFE.

~Cryton

Whether or not it does, it should. You are entirely right about the setting. My daddy taught me "if it works don't fix it" and it used to work reasonably well.

If you do "fix it" you should at least know what you are doing or hire someone who does. Most plumbers know which way the water is supposed to flow in the toilet...;) How long would an Architect stay in business who payed no attention to his client's needs and wants?

I guess Mongoose thought they could get enough new clients? In any case, I don't buy what they sell.:eek:mega:
 
Mongoose Traveller did a great job updating Classic Traveller: they added a task system, they swapped in the careers and skill list from Traveller5, they improved (I think) the combat model, and they kept the "Book 2 starships" feel in the core rules. At the same time, they kept the setting neutrality that CT started with, and proved it by making it their house SF rules for their other settings. It's hard to argue against a rules system that does that, and is ALSO successful in bringing Traveller players to the table.

a poorer task system, combat model, and writing than MegaTraveller.
Almost as much errata. A change to CGen tha forces up-or-out. Rules thst contradict the included default setting. No energy points, so instead, a broken and poorly worded power rule. And the errata for MT is mostly typos; for MgT, genuine flaw patching.

It is all too easy to point out the major flaws. Even the core shows a lack of care. The core is a reasonably solid game, the supplements get progressively worse, and the handling of the OTU is execrable.
 
That is a question - how did those alien modules sell, and to whom?

I got the Sword World module when I purchased Mongoose to work with Attack Squadron: Roswell. I was mainly interested in seeing what they did with it, looked at it and decided that would be the last one I would get from them. Not totally happy with the basic rules, but I do LIKE Attack Squadron: Roswell.

My Darrian Alien Module got hit by some water dripping off of a water line in my basement, but after looking at the Mongoose Sword World one, decided that I would replace with a copy of the original.
 
Hello gentlemen,

A bit of rumour control needed, I fancy!

I kinda see what he's saying. Instead of a group of employees, tuned into every aspect of the game they are creating, with an agenda, creating stuff for a game vs. a fan being tapped to write for that game.

Two points here. In the Old Days, Mongoose employed full time writers. We now use freelancers from a variety of sources. However, you shouldl be aware that this is what the vast majority of RPG companies, big and small, do. Employing writers on a permanent basis is very, very rare, and when we were doing it, you could count the number of other companies doing the same thing on one hand.

In short, the days you pine for never really existed.

Second, Don and Rob are not exactly 'fans.' They are very much Marc's trusted gatekeepers to the OTU.

The development of the Traveller line has obviously ran its course and there isn't anywhere obvious to go. This was an obvious flaw due to the timeline not advancing as it has in previous editions.

Sorry, eh, what???

It fair boggles my mind that any game and/or setting like Traveller can possibly run its course in, well, ever really.

Advancing timelines have their own issues but even if it did not advance, there is so much scope out there...

I agree expanding the post TNE timeline could have been nice, but Mongoose chose to grow in another direction (which I think has worked well for them financially).

Doesn't mean we can't/won't look at other aspects of the timeline. However we would would want to effectively treat each new step as its own setting, with all the support that would entail.

Short version of that is that fan or pro doesn't matter so long as you deliver a solid product - but that requires writing like a pro for the duration of the project.

QFT.

the publisher sticking in all those space filling mini deckplans?

When we started Traveller, we made a promise to provide a deck plan for every ship we printed. Hardly space-filler, I feel...

MJD, keep in mind: Matthew has said on-line, repeatedly, "There is no Official Traveller Universe." He has used OTU to refer to the "Original Traveller Universe."

Actually, I always considered the two terms interchangeable. They are one and the same (they both refer to the 3I and spin-offs, after all).

There is an apparent institutional disdain at Mongoose for the OTU, and when the head of the company says at the outset that it is no longer the "official universe", but the universe is more known than the rules, there is an inherent disconnect from the fans.

I hink you read a little more into that than was intended. The intention was to be able to use Traveller for more than just the OTU (however you wish to say the O). _Nothing_ more. Just thought it would be cool to use the rules for other universes, and have the ability to mix and match if so desired.

Hasn't worked out so badly, I think.

Also, it's interesting that Matthew quite obviously intentionally leaked that someone else beat him to the draw on the SW license... Which we know now was FFG.

You say interesting as if there was some nefarious intent behind it. I mentioned it for no other reason than I thought people _would_ be interested.

I was at Gencon UK when Mongoose first got the Traveller licence. A press flyer came round announcing Traveller was coming back after being OOP for ten years. I remember looking at all the GT/T20/HT products on the BITS stand (plus supporting BITS products) and thinking, so what's all this, chopped liver?

Well, all the games you mentioned there were licensed settings, effectively. I think the point that we were bringing back the original Traveller was one that was understood. Surely?

Then I went to a Q and A session given by Mongoose where Matthew (I think it was him) told the room that Traveller was the rules and not the setting, and smugly announced that he "intended to drive a wedge" between them.

Smugly. Really. What mindset do you think someone would need to be smug about that?

The wedge I was talking about, and it was mentioned at the time, was simply an intention to allow official settings to be created using the same core Traveller rules between all of them. So, you could play Judge Dredd (say) with Traveller rules that you already knew, _and_ transport items between the two. So, you want mutants in 3I, use the Dredd rules. Need a quick merchant ship for JD, bring one in from the core Traveller rules.

That was _all_ that was intended.

So I guess GT, for example, is just a variant of GURPS for playing the OTU and not real Traveller in their eyes. Ditto T20 and HT.

If you wanted to look at things in the nastiest way possible, you could make a case for the above, yes. We don't publish GURPS or T20 or Hero, so they have nothing to do with us. The argument could be made that they licence the 3I, and that 'real' Traveller (as you put it, not I) also brings with it certain assumptions about the rules set - certainly the case if you go back to Classic Traveller, as we did.

But, it should also be noted, we do not really think in those terms, nor have we ever.

Sorry, but the great conspiracy just does not exist!

I'm not happy that my many attempts at submission were snubbed...

...I really don't like the way I was treated by Mongoose, and think it unprofessional to the core

I do not know what happened here and I can only say that I am very sorry you were treated that way, and that everyone involved in that treatment has since been fired.

Traveller submissions are now handled solely by myself and, via me, Marc's approval system. Drop me a line at msprange@mongoosepublishing.com and we can talk. I'll go through with you the changes we have made for writers and you can discuss the kind of things you would like to write, 3I or no.

You'll have nothing to lose but a single email :)

T What surprised me was that it just looked like a modernized version of the Classic Traveller rules, which is what I think Traveller really needed for a the longest time.

In this, we are in complete agreement.

That is a question - how did those alien modules sell, and to whom?

Best selling 3I books after the Spinward Marches book, which we have always used as a kind of intro for the setting as a whole.

It _is_ okay not to like everything we do, even if you are a 3I die-hard! However, be aware that there are reasons for every change, and they are not done unilaterally.

That said, we are also always looking to improve, and if we were to re-do one of these books, it would be Sword Worlds.

a poorer task system, combat model, and writing than MegaTraveller.

You understand that is opinion, not fact, right? :)

And the errata for MT is mostly typos; for MgT, genuine flaw patching.

All four pages of it, all of which only affects the first printing of the book, not the vast majority of copies out there.

It really is a nice rulebook that does everything it set out to do, and I think most here might agree with that, even if they prefer another version of Traveller.
 
Official Traveller Universe vs Original Traveller Universe?

Maybe there should be ONE Traveller Universe.

And what I mean by that is consistency in "Official" Traveller products. As Hans says verisimilitude.

House rules are fine,as are personal universes, so is a Traveller product that CLEARLY follows prior cannon and makes no attempt to alter it or force it in another direction.

I believe this is a necessity given the "newest version" replaces the "older version" rule/custom. I have no problem with fixing whats wrong, but, alternate, or worse yet "future" versions aren't the way to do it.

I'd like to tell you what I think about what you did to HG, but it would get me banned.
 
In that case, keep things clean and polite, and drop me an email at msprange@mongoosepublishing.com, breaking everything down point by point. At some point (no sooner than 2015) there may well be a High Guard Second Edition, so all comments are being harvested...

Greetings, Matt. I think that I have no axes to grind either way with respect to OTU, except that I was not a fan of MegaTraveller starting the Rebellion, nor of Traveller: The New Era. I do have the books.

I bought Mongoose online primarily to get the basic rules as I really like Attack Squadron: Roswell. I have been working on a supplement to it, using the data that I have. Should I send you an email regarding that?

I do have some thoughts on other areas as well.
 
Sword World Problems

With respect to the Sword World Module, the big turnoff was the overly militaristic approach, and general very "dark" sense of it.

Also, when on page 4 of the module, and the first page describing the Sword Worlders, I need to look up what "Rosacea" and "hypertrophic scarring", I started wondering exactly what this module was. Do I really need to know that information?

Then on bottom of page 4 and top of page 5, there is the comment that emphasizes male children, with added implications. This is followed by the comment that the typical sex ratio of children at 5 is 114 males to 100 females, followed immediately thereafter by "traditional polygamous pairings between between one husband and many wives". Uh, this does not compute. Given the over-testosterone society described, one man with many wives becomes one dead man with many widows in short order.

And that is just the first two pages of character description. After than, any further interest in Mongoose Alien Modules evaporated permanently.

"Swordies"?

Animal encounters have lots of various animals, but what does a "miniphant" or "Magniphant" look like? A lot of the animal encounters are predators. Problem is, predators are typically a small minority of the animal population, as they need sufficient prey to eat. So, what are they eating?
 
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Miniphants date from the pages of JTAS back in the CT period. They are elephants that never get much larger than about 4 feet tall.

I have that copy of the JTAS, in hard copy (at least 2 hard copy) and the PDF format from DriveThru. Article states that the Miniphants were developed and derived from the Terran Indian Elephant.

The Mongoose reference states that the Miniphant was discovered on Gram and domesticated by the Sword Worlders. Those do not match in the least.

Also, Mongoose states that the Magniphant is a cousin of the Miniphant, with it being either the larger ancestor or evolved into much larger size from the Miniphant. However, the Miniphant was discovered on Gram, the Magniphant is native to Beater.

I hesitate to determine how these mutually contradictory statements can be resolved.

Edit Note: The JTAS article states that they are about 2 meters at the shoulder, which would equal about 6.5 feet, not 4 feet.
 
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I have that copy of the JTAS, in hard copy (at least 2 hard copy) and the PDF format from DriveThru. Article states that the Miniphants were developed and derived from the Terran Indian Elephant.
And that's how we wrote them up in GT:Sword Worlds.

The Mongoose reference states that the Miniphant was discovered on Gram and domesticated by the Sword Worlders. Those do not match in the least.
I missed that one when I read through the manuscript. I can see no valid reason for such a gratuious change.

Also, Mongoose states that the Magniphant is a cousin of the Miniphant, with it being either the larger ancestor or evolved into much larger size from the Miniphant. However, the Miniphant was discovered on Gram, the Magniphant is native to Beater.
More carelessness.

I hesitate to determine how these mutually contradictory statements can be resolved.
I suppose one could come up with an explanation involving both miniphants of Sphere Terra and a family of vaguely elephantoid species native to either Sphere Gram or Sphere Beater and then invoke yet more meddling by the Ancients, but frankly I don't see any reason to bother. My suggestion to Matt would be to excise the alien mini- and magniphants when Mongoose gets around to the long-overdue revision of MgT:Sword Worlds.

When and if you do, Matt, I have some suggestions for minor tweaks, BTW. And I will, of course, be happy to playtest the revised manuscript for you.


Hans
 
I bought Mongoose online primarily to get the basic rules as I really like Attack Squadron: Roswell. I have been working on a supplement to it, using the data that I have. Should I send you an email regarding that?

We liked Roswell too, and posted it on our front page when it was released - some good ideas in that one.

As for an email, what data did you have in mind? Bear in mind that we did not publish Roswell, so if it is a specific supplement to that book you should probably contact its publisher.
 
After than, any further interest in Mongoose Alien Modules evaporated permanently.

I'll acknoweldge some issues on Sword Worlds - however, I would also say that this book is not one of the Alien Modules, and I would hope you would find them markedly different.
 
I'll say this, Matt. For all the crap I've seen you take (and I know I've given you some, too), you always seem to take it well and are always willing to talk.

Kudos to you, man. Other publishers could learn something from your example.

Cheers for that, much appreciated.

At the end of the day, I work with games because I like games - and I like talking about them, even if the subject is sometimes a difficult one about our own products.

Take now, for example. My eyes are near falling out of my head after a heavy session of editing the forthcoming Powers & Principalities (aiming for PDF release end of next week, but that is a _tough_ goal!).

So, I swing by here for a few minutes and see what is up. Anyone want to talk Traveller? :)
 
So, I swing by here for a few minutes and see what is up. Anyone want to talk Traveller? :)

Huh? I thought this was a retirement portfolio forum? Am I in the wrong place?

I kid.

And I'll second the above compliment. I have issues with Mongoose and some of their Trav stuff but Matt has been the upfront face for MongTrav on the crustiest Trav forum out there. That's saying something!
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On a Traveller-related note, when are we going to see decent art in 2300 products? It's painful.
 
I looked through the Mongoose Sword Worlds book just now. Didn't see anything wrong with the book, other than I'd have prefered a hardcover of it. But it doesn't exactly count as an alien module book to get that treatment.

People will always complain about these books, no matter what Traveller system they're written for. To those that look for any excuse (no miniphant picture, really?) why not to continue buying books, I say "Waaah!"
 
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