MGT Only: The problem with Mongoose Traveller?

[rancke]

"Ten cents," I said to her, with an incredulous look on my face. "For...a...bag."

"Yes, sir," she said, smiling at me, "the bigger ones are a quarter."

I started to say more, but my brother popped his head around me at this moment, flipping a dime up on the counter. "He doesn't understand," he appologized to her, "he's from Texas, the Common Sense State."

Where's the common sense in not charging for a bag? The shop owner pays a manufacturer for the bags. Why shouldn't he charge the customer for it?

Of course, the shopowner could give them away for free and increase his prices to cover the added overhead instead, but one way or another the customers pays for the bags. TANSTAAFB (There ain't no such thing as a free bag ). The difference is that charging directly for the bags only the customers who get the bags pay for them.

I think you may be confusing Texas customs with common sense.

(I don't get where the LAW comes into it, though.)


Hans

 

[GypsyComet]

(I don't get where the LAW comes into it, though.)

City and County Ordinances are popping up all over the region. It's an attempt to get shoppers to move to reusable bags.

 

[Supplement Four]

Where's the common sense in not charging for a bag?

I'd better not answer this. :devil:

(I don't get where the LAW comes into it, though.)

In the City of San Mateo, California, a law has been passed mandating the charging of bags.

It is freakin' beautiful out there. I love many parts of it. My brother has a weekend house in Napa Valley, too, and it's just incredible. The food. The scenery. The things to do. I love visiting there.

Then, on the other hand, it's not some place where I'd want to live. Total taxes are about 50%!!

And, they pass laws, like the bag law, that just stick in my craw (to use a Southern expression). For example, the tax payers pay for homeless people to have cell phones. No kidding! I believe California is the only state in the Union where, once a person gets on Welfare, he never has to get off of it! It's one of three states in the US where there are more unemployed people than there are people employed! California is diversified, blessed with oil, agriculture, and other natural resources. There's Silicon Valley and the Entertainment Industry, banking and finance, and strong in other industries. It has all the ingredients to be one of the richest states in the US, yet the state is continually facing bankruptcy.

We were having dinner in San Francisco one night, and I noticed a line at the bottom of the menu that said another 4.74% will be tacked onto the bill for some city ordinance. I asked my brother about it, and he said that the waiters all got together and went on strike so that they can have healthcare. So now, on top of the usual tax and tip a person will have to cough up for his meal, there's the extra 4.74%.

I told my brother, "Heck, just apply some Texas Common Sense (referring to the bag story) and reduce the tip by 4.74%."

 

[Supplement Four]

BTW, we'd better back off on this thread derailment before it devolves into a political discussion and Aramis slaps us with a Warning or worse.

For my part, I just meant to tell a humorous story about the place.

 

[GypsyComet]

Then, on the other hand, it's not some place where I'd want to live. Total taxes are about 50%!!

San Mateo County is exceedingly... Patrician... about many things. It is effectively the suburban fringe for both San Francisco and the main Silicon Valley. Lots and lots of money. Napa and Marin are part of that fringe as well, and it shows, but San Mateo is in the radius of both.

San Francisco is expensive to live in for the same reasons other big cities are.

 

[DonM]

As far as the art goes, I have noticed how human = Caucasian.

I have always felt that the artwork in Traveller (and most other rpgs) are incredibly racist.

I really don't mean to start anything here, but as a Hispanic, I've never seen Traveller art that struck me that way -- and I've thought that was a good thing. I'll also confess to being put off by some of the odder Mongoose artwork, but I've thought that spoke more to the need for good artists than anything else.

And as a reviewer of numerous books for Marc and Matt, I think one part of the problem for Mongoose is a lack of art direction on the part of book authors (including myself).

 

[MJD]

WTF?

This thread was about Mongoose Traveller.

Now it's about the politics of bags in some part of California?

I thought COTI was about a game or something.

 

[Supplement Four]

I thought COTI was about a game or something.

Heck, sometimes people talk about Traveller and are told to stop! :CoW:

 

[Vladika]

Heck, sometimes people talk about Traveller and are told to stop! :CoW:

Maybe there should be a poll for that...:devil:

 

[Blue Ghost]

The idea is to cut down on forestry and reliance on petroleum products by inducing people to bring their own bags. San Francisco and San Mateo (and I guess Berkleley too) tend to do a lot of social experimentation...hooray (he said sardonically).

San Mateo, Hillsborough, Millbrae, San Bruno, Redwood City, San Carlos, Palo Alto, Stanford, Foster City and a couple others are suburbs of San Francisco and Silicon Valley, making it one of the most expensive places to live.

Ironically enough the most expensive suburb is Atherton, westerly of San Jose, the hub of Apple, Intel, HP, Corel, and a bunch of other software and hardware manufacturers. I accidentally stumbled into Atherton while trying to get to Santa Cruz back in the late 80s or early 90s. There were nothing but Porsches, BMWs (high end), Ferraris, Mercedes Benz and Jaguars parked along the curb. Not a Ford or Honda in sight, except for my then late model Acura.

This is all the more reason that Mongoose needs to be friendly to us types who live among the not-so-game inclined burbs.

Now let's get back to talking about how out of touch Mongeese is.

 

[Supplement Four]

The idea is to cut down on forestry and reliance on petroleum products by inducing people to bring their own bags. San Francisco and San Mateo (and I guess Berkleley too) tend to do a lot of social experimentation...hooray (he said sardonically).

San Mateo, Hillsborough, Millbrae, San Bruno, Redwood City, San Carlos, Palo Alto, Stanford, Foster City and a couple others are suburbs of San Francisco and Silicon Valley, making it one of the most expensive places to live.

The epilogue to my story above is the happy ending. I was up there two weeks, and my bro had to work some of the days. So, I borrowed his car and went roaming.

My first surprise is that there's a pretty popular game store in San Mateo. Gator Games. I've actually done business with them in the past, buying things for my Conan game. I hadn't put two-and-two together--the store isn't that far at all from where my bro lives. I popped in to check it out, then walked across the street and had a pretty good Chinese lunch one day.

Then, I found out about the card rooms. I trucked on up to one, played in a game for just over two hours, and won enough to pay for my trip!

 

[aramis]

[m;]if you want to discuss San Matteo, take it to random static. The Buy Your Bags movement is quite political, so take it to the political pulpit. [/m;]

 

[Shonner]

Don's Zhodani book for mongoose has cartoony-almost-looking art for the Zhodani careers. But after a bit, I like the art. If leaves room for the player to decide how their look for Zhodani will be, rather than being told by an artist's very detailed rendering of how Zhodani should only look.

 

[Blue Ghost]

To be honest, I kind of like what the Mongeese folks have done with the basic Traveller rule book. It looks sleek and well presented with a good portion of art injected here and there. What surprised me was that it just looked like a modernized version of the Classic Traveller rules, which is what I think Traveller really needed for a the longest time.

Having said that, I am looking forward to see T5 get polished off so we can see more adventures from other authors. The Foreven thing does put a crimp in creativity. I think that, more than anything else, has me scratching my head about Mongoose Traveller. It makes me think that they have big plans for the "official Traveller Universe" in spite of stating that there isn't one.

And, on that topic, I'm glad that Mongoose has taken the tact in terms of rules verse setting that it has. To me it says that it's not going to get sucked into the trap of cranking out setting indemic to the OTU for the sake of feeding the appetites of the Traveller gaming frenzy. I think it's a smart move because you keep the system open and remind people that what Traveller can be is a system to emulate your favorite settings, OR, if you like, you can use the then Vanilla flavored OTU (now more Chocolate Sunday combined with Rocky Road ice cream...damn that sounds good about now) to your heart's content to construe whatever setting you want.

John and I exchanged some thoughts on that, and I think he and I drew the same conclusions. But, enough posting on my part. Back to writing.

[size=-3]p.s. the best Chinese is found on the peninsula, not in San Francisco [/size]

 

[DonM]

Don's Zhodani book for mongoose has cartoony-almost-looking art for the Zhodani careers. But after a bit, I like the art. If leaves room for the player to decide how their look for Zhodani will be, rather than being told by an artist's very detailed rendering of how Zhodani should only look.

I have to say, I did give art direction, and it was... followed. In the future, I need to give better direction.

Hey, in my head, the Zhodani illustrations were done by ILM, ok?

 

[Blue Ghost]

Not WETA, Dreamworks, Apogee? Disney?

 

[DonM]

Not WETA, Dreamworks, Apogee? Disney?

I don't want Zhodani cartoons, and just what we need in Traveller, a Zhodani princess? Thanks a lot.

 

[Vladika]

ZAP: Zhodani American Princess

 

[robject]

To be honest, I kind of like what the Mongeese folks have done with the basic Traveller rule book. It looks sleek and well presented with a good portion of art injected here and there. What surprised me was that it just looked like a modernized version of the Classic Traveller rules, which is what I think Traveller really needed for a the longest time.

Mongoose Traveller did a great job updating Classic Traveller: they added a task system, they swapped in the careers and skill list from Traveller5, they improved (I think) the combat model, and they kept the "Book 2 starships" feel in the core rules. At the same time, they kept the setting neutrality that CT started with, and proved it by making it their house SF rules for their other settings. It's hard to argue against a rules system that does that, and is ALSO successful in bringing Traveller players to the table.

 

[Cryton]

Mongoose Traveller did a great job updating Classic Traveller: they added a task system, they swapped in the careers and skill list from Traveller5, they improved (I think) the combat model, and they kept the "Book 2 starships" feel in the core rules. At the same time, they kept the setting neutrality that CT started with, and proved it by making it their house SF rules for their other settings. It's hard to argue against a rules system that does that, and is ALSO successful in bringing Traveller players to the table.

MgT core rules is an amazing job, and the rest of the rules books are a wealth of options for making your own game that are incredibly useful to have. With those products, I have no contention. How they have managed the Third Imperium is reprehensible.

I have no idea if they know anything about the 3I setting. So far, in just the Aliens books alone, Mongoose has turned the Solomani into a nation of racists instead of just a having a racist government, turned the Sword Worlders from viking inspired to sexist neo-nazi's, they turned the Darrians from aliens into elves, the Aslan into lion-headed toons, and the Vargar into dog-headed jokes. They have also been subtlety making small changes to cannon that have wide reaching effects, and seeming not caring one whit about it. To me it seems they care nothing about the award winning setting that has come to be seen as Traveller in the gaming community's eyes. THANK THE GODS they got an author that knows the setting to do the Zho and upcoming Droyne book, because it has become obvious to me, that while they can write great rules for a game, they cant handle a setting for beans.

Just so you folks know, the above is my opinion, and me venting long withheld anger over what I have read in the 3I setting materials from Mongoose products, and in no way reflects the opinions or attitudes of the rest of the staff of the COTI board or FFE.

~Cryton