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The Silurian hypothesis

Carlobrand

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Marquis
The Silurian hypothesis is a thought experiment developed by two scientists in a 2018 paper. Basically it goes like this:

There's been enough fossil fuel on Earth since the end of the Carboniferous, 350 million years ago, to support an industrial civilization. If such a civilization existed on Earth, millions or tens of millions of years ago, what evidence of it might still exist after all this time? Most of Earth's exposed surface is less than 2.5 million years old. Any evidence of civilizations millions or tens of millions of years in the past, beyond being eroded by time, would likely be deeply buried. The odds of finding direct evidence would be exceedingly low. We would be more likely to encounter indirect evidence, such as finding those pesky microplastics deep under the surface or in deep ice cores where our technology could not have penetrated.

Let's extend on that. Let's imagine that prior to one or more of the great extinction events - the Permian-Triassic extinction event 252 million years ago, the Triassic-Jurassic extinction event 201 million years ago, and/or the Cretaceous-Paleogene Extinction Event 66 million years ago - there was an industrial civilization peopled by intelligent relatives of the dominant forms of that time, a civilization that expanded into space and perhaps even to other systems before the destruction of the homeworld civilization led to the gradual collapse of that civilization's planetary and stellar colonies. Or perhaps that civilization never developed an interstellar drive and its survivors in space instead traversed between worlds on colony ships and eventually gave up travelling to the inner systems, instead roaming interstellar space and only grabbing resources from the distant Oort clouds of the various systems, escaping the notice of the inner system civilizations. Evidence for their past existence would be all but nonexistent on terrestrial worlds and so rare in space as to be discounted as misinterpretation or outright fabrication. A civilization based on interstellar drives might never realize there was a civilization thriving deep in interstellar space until some chance observation of a colony ship in the Oort Cloud by some astronomer willing to risk his reputation prompted someone to jump a ship out to investigate. And then, if the colony ship had sufficiently advanced drives, it might escape further scrutiny simply by running into deep space faster than the fastest ship could follow.
 
Unless their NAFAL drives used tech that also screened them from being detected by neutrino detectors, densitometers, or even visible spectrum, it seems likely that someone in the ten thousand years the Vilani have been in space would have seen them if they were still in the neighborhood.

Of course, in even 66 million years they could be anywhere in the galaxy easily with reasonable NAFAL drive tech.
 
Consider this,
~85,000,000 years ago primates evolve
~20->22,000,000 years ago apes were evolving from primates
~4->7,000,000 years ago earliest human species evolved
~300,000 years ago modern humans
~12,000 years ago humanity begins rebuilding civilisation following the great collapse

The dinosaurs had a lot longer than that to evolve to intelligence, build industries, develop space travel.
Travelling at 0.1c our dinosaur overlords could have spread to the rest of the galaxy in 300,000 years give or take.

What if...
our dinosaur overlords are the reason the solar system is so unique
our dinosaur overlords colonised the far corners of the galaxy but continued to evolve such that after 65 million years of separation different colony worlds are effectively alien species
our dinosaur overlords took early mammals to the stars as food and pets, they are also now effectively alien races.
the last colony of our dinosaur overlords in the solar system is the distant planet X - Nibiru.
 
Most of Earth's exposed surface is less than 2.5 million years old. Any evidence of civilizations millions or tens of millions of years in the past, beyond being eroded by time, would likely be deeply buried.

Let's imagine that prior to one or more of the great extinction events - the Permian-Triassic extinction event 252 million years ago, the Triassic-Jurassic extinction event 201 million years ago, and/or the Cretaceous-Paleogene Extinction Event 66 million years ago
Yet, we have evidence of these events, because we have been digging.

It's likely in our digs, we would have found "unnatural" artifacts left over from such a civilization, considering how extensive it probably must have been.

Similarly, with the Moon, unless they leap frogged, odds are high any inner system exploitation would have relied on the moon as a kind of staging area. While the Earth is a volatile, dynamic geologic environment, the Moon is not. Heck, we'd probably still find tire marks.

Travelling at 0.1c our dinosaur overlords could have spread to the rest of the galaxy in 300,000 years give or take.
So, you're saying that the Ancients are dinosaurs?
 
I first encountered the Silurian Hypothesis in this hour-long discussion. It gets its name from the Silurians, a species that was introduced in Doctor Who during the Third Doctor's Earth-bound adventures.

 
I don't think the Droyne can be plausibly argued to be descended from dinosaurs, since their functional wings shows an evolutionary history (and settlement preference) for low gravity worlds.

However, I seem to recall in one sourcebook or another, that the Ithklur, who often act as the Hivers' soldiers, due to the identity crisis they have from being so manipulated by the Hivers, include a subculture that believes themselves to be descended from uplifted dinosaurs from Earth or at least likes to say this as a joke.
 
If the Saurians colonised the low gravity "Droyne" homeworld 100,000,000 years ago that is plenty of time for them to have evolved from Silurian to Droyne.

~233->243,000,000 years ago Dinosaurs evolve
~200,000,000 years ago they survive an extinction level event
~66,000,000 years ago they didn't

Is 43,000,000 years enough time for an intelligent species to evolver to the point it heads off into space?
The extinction event of the 200s could have been the result of war or it could be what triggered the rise to intelligence.
144 million years -> 7 million to evolve intelligence, 137,000,000 years to colonise the galaxy before the asteroid struck.
 
The Silence Trilogy by D. Nolan Clark
1. Forsaken Skies
2. Forgotten Worlds
3. Forbidden Suns
A good read. I thought it had a Traveller feel to it with enough stuff that isn't or could/might be Traveller to really make you wonder. And the main reason I brought up this series is that, not only did I want to share it after I read it, this Thread touches on a part of the plot. Hmm, and one alien race made me think of one of the Major Races from Traveller.

For the Intelligent Dinosaurs... I read a novel set right before some Ice Age Event, where the Intelligent Saurians have very advanced biotechnology and genetic engineering to dominate their world while humans were their servants and slaves. Similar to the Yuuzhan Vong technology from Star Wars novels. Sorry that I don't remember the title of the book.
 
And the species in Doctor Who took its name from the geological period.

Corrections from a RABID Doctor Who fan: The "Silurians" are not from the Silurian Era...

Despite the name according to The (Third) Doctor, The Silurians, Sea Devils and similar species and offshoots should properly called Eocenes having last walked the Earth during the Eocene Period (56MYa to 33.9MYa) until they went into hibernation for various reasons.

The naming comes from human scientists who find them in underground Silurian strata (443.8Mya-419.2 Mya) in their first appearance in the Third Doctor story The Silurians. But that is merely the the depth where their base was located.

Still they were an extremely successful species as they had spacecraft as far back as the Mezozoic Era as shown in the Eleventh Doctor episode Dinosaurs on a Spaceship as the returning Silurian ship had Triceratops and Raptors.

They will be a successful species again as ALL hibernation facilities will be reactivated around 3000 AD, where The Doctor hopes humans will finally be able to coexist with them in the episode Cold Blood.
 
The Silurians existed technologically at least for a period of 12 million years (68Mya-56Mya) if not longer, as Triceratops arose near the end at 68Mya. Also their active technological artifacts and facilities can survive for far longer.

But that is the Whoniverse and not a Hard Science Universe.
 
If the Saurians colonised the low gravity "Droyne" homeworld 100,000,000 years ago that is plenty of time for them to have evolved from Silurian to Droyne.
Time scale could work, in the sense that they could have died back, and then evolve into the proto-Droyne and regain technology.

However the canonical Droyne skeleton does not support that narrative. The Droyne rib-cage is entirely unlike its equivalent in Terran vertebrates, whether reptilian, avian, or mammalian, and they have six limbs: two arms, two legs, and two wings. There is no six-limbed species amongst the Terran vertebrates.

Additionally, Droyne have compound eyes, which is a feature of Terran arthropods but not of Terran vertebrates.
 
The Silurian hypothesis is a thought experiment developed by two scientists in a 2018 paper. Basically it goes like this:
There is a Cepheus Engine Supplement The Empire of Time that involves time travel similar to Isaac Asimov's The End of Eternity. Time Drives (Jump Drive rules construction, NO FTL in this universe) take you exactly multiples of 19,700 years. back and forth in time. So if you go 19,700 years into the future and spend 3 hours there, you come back here at 19,700 years + 3 hours (thus preventing paradox overlaps). The physics there prevent you from clipping the Time Drives for shorter or longer than exact multiples of 19,700 years.
Empire of Time at DriveThruRPG

The book uses some of the theories regarding the lifespan of species. It makes a general rule that no intelligent species lasts longer than around 18,000 years before it destroys itself or devolves/re-evolves itself. Artifacts may survive, but species don't.
Where this leads to interesting ideas in the book:
  • American energy companies are going back millions of years laying land claims to tectonic plates and areas that are not as submerged in the crust and as inaccessible in the modern day. This provides new energy now without a "Robbing Peter to pay Paul" or Bill and Ted "Time Game" situations
  • Chinese exile/penal colonies like the one Star Trek episode with people living in past times despite their sun going nova
  • War and trade with species that evolved in the past and the future.
  • Empire of Time.jpg
 
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I'd just drain Nigeria, Venezuela, Caucasus, Arctic, Antarctic, Siberia, Middle East, and North Africa.

Preemptively.
True, but many countries in this setting lay claim to their geographic counterparts in the past and future times. So many countries with such resources now or in the past, lay claim, fight, defend such places/times if they can...
Also the biggies for the setting:
We have a war with humans 19,700 years in the future who had some apocalyptic war in their past. They average around TL 4/5 with TL 15 artifacts and their artifact timeships while "the present" sloughs around TL 9 (except for the "Time Drives" which can leap up to 6x19,700 (118,200) years)
Humans disappear entirely, 39,400 years from now
There are IIRC 3 other species capable of Time Jumps, but their home times are tens if not hundreds of millions years separated from ours and they also lay claim to other eras.
 
Unless their NAFAL drives used tech that also screened them from being detected by neutrino detectors, densitometers, or even visible spectrum, it seems likely that someone in the ten thousand years the Vilani have been in space would have seen them if they were still in the neighborhood.

Of course, in even 66 million years they could be anywhere in the galaxy easily with reasonable NAFAL drive tech.
I'm not sure densitometers would be of much use at those ranges.

Neutrino detectors on the scale that far future astronomers might use could possibly detect traces but, given that they can ship equipment from star to star to study them more closely, I think the only neutrino sensors on that scale would be locked on stellar bodies of types they couldn't reach by jump, i.e. types not encountered in the Imperium. Those aren't likely to detect colony ships unless one coincidentally crossed in front of their target and they were trying to figure out why the star's neutrino output shifted briefly.

Visible spectrum maybe, maybe not. IR detection would be more useful, assuming they could detect IR differences between colony ships and natural bodies at ranges approaching or exceeding a lightyear, and assuming a colony ship happened to be in their viewing arc while they were looking for something else. (Or perhaps someone suspected colony ships were out there and was just searching for one.)
 
Time scale could work, in the sense that they could have died back, and then evolve into the proto-Droyne and regain technology.

However the canonical Droyne skeleton does not support that narrative. The Droyne rib-cage is entirely unlike its equivalent in Terran vertebrates, whether reptilian, avian, or mammalian, and they have six limbs: two arms, two legs, and two wings. There is no six-limbed species amongst the Terran vertebrates.

Additionally, Droyne have compound eyes, which is a feature of Terran arthropods but not of Terran vertebrates.
The Imperium biologically modifies people to adapt them to colony worlds, 100,000,000 years is more than enough time for some bioengineering and subsequent evolution.

Then there is the example of the Zhodani. The humans transported by the Ancients evolved inot two separate human species, and modern Zhodani are the result of the hybridisation of those two.
 
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