The SMG has been found

[aramis]

So an Aslan could use a SMG if MGT had included one!
...and might just snatch yours out of your 'primate' hands.
Is that what you are saying?

Aslan hands are probably better for snatching stuff than human, and less susceptible to directional leverage. Probably not quite as good at finer motions; IMTU the central thumb leads to a slightly larger minimum unassisted manipulation size (They reach for the tweezers for slightly larger stuff than we do). Hence larger buttons, viking period style large-needle stiching being both functional and decorative simultaneously, fewer concealed stiches. On the other hand (pun intended) claws allow easier operation of small and recessed switches.

As for using a human SMG, I'm certain it could be managed... the penalty provided for aslan weapons in human hands and human weapons in aslan hands is rather notable, but does imply they CAN be used. (See AM Aslan)

Some tasks woud be done in a different manner, but with no less (and no more) difficulty, eg: loading a revolver with loose rounds. Where the primate hand can hold loose rounds in palm, and thumb-push them to oppositional grip with the index finger, the aslan hand won't carry as well, but I can see 6 rounds, 3 each slot, being pushed forward with a thumb into the cylinder's chambers. (I knew a guy who loaded pistol clips that way, but with the primer away from the palm; four rounds between index and middle, and four between middle and ring, lifted out of the box in those groups.)

The central thumb does make the aslan palm less useful as a carrying place for small items and liquids.... it is a series of small usage differences.

If you ever want to play around with functioning with claws, go buy some cheap finger-pics (typically about a $1.50 each), and go through the day with them on upside down. (They are normally worn with the ramp under the tip; instead put it over the nail.) Doi it for a day or two, and you will find subtle differences in how you do things.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

These have a central thumb:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2092/2272145846_612c67d533.jpg?v=0

In this case, the hand is permitted natural movement inside the glove envelope, but the design can be extrapoltaed into fingers, etc easy.

My whle thing with the Aslan hand is the Dewclaw. If its cat claw like material, or cartilidge, or harder tissue, wouldn't most of the thumb and hand musculature in that area be almost all geared toward extension/retraction of the claw, and wouldnt the thumb be almost immobile from having that huge claw in there, and the retract area?

 

[Jamus]

Parrots don't climb about the jungle canopy? Have you, sir, ever actually worked with a parrot? I have; an african gray. Their feet are quite capable of tool use. It also is quite capable of carrying considerable weight in that "useless" set of talons, and while it can't swing a hammer, that's more to do with positioning in relation to the body than configuration of the end of limb digits.

Aslan, BTW, are defined as descending from pouncers. A birdlike set of talons can evolve to digitigrade stance (Ostritches) for running, and the opposed central digit is common enough in birds of prey. The Birds of prey use 3 vs 1 or 2 vs 2 for snatching prey on the go.

The primate hand, while very useful, is not the "only" useful configuration.

I own an umbrella cockatoo named galagher. he climbs all over the place but as I am sure you notice with your parrot they tend to use their beak as much or more to climb about than his feet. The beak is the parrots primary tool for interacting with its environment. in short you have made a very poor comparison. parrots are extremely clumsy when manipulating things with their feet and have a tendancy to drop what ever they are trying to play with. I know this from direct observation and so should you.

Aslan are defined as pouncer that originated in jungle canopy and then were later forced out into the savanna when the jungles died out. there they learned to walk up right and manipulate tools. The 3-1 hand layout would not be ideal for tool use and is not ideal. how a creature could develop a tech based society with such clumsy hands is beyond the imagination.

I am more fond of the earlier description of aslan such as that in twilights peak that clearly show an aslan male with human like hands and describes aslan as feline.

 

[aramis]

In re the dewclaw... Possibly. Thing of it this way: The claw and thumb don't need to be terribly flexible in-to-out, and most of the musculature for the dewclaw would likely be in the forearms, connected by tendons through various chanels.

Just like a cat's claws are controlled by muscles in their forelimbs.

Keep in mind: YOUR fingers are operated from your forearm. Your thumb has a few muscles in the hand, but most are in the forearm.

 

[coliver988]

What I find fascinating in this conversation about the Aslan hands is that anyone can make any guesses whatsoever as to how intelligence and hands go together. We've essentially 1 sample - humans - not anywhere near enough to say definitively that something cannot be. Heck - look at all the arguments about world generation, gas giant placements and stuff: suddenly we find gas giants in the habitable zone - but that was impossible and could never happen! Until we've managed to actually LOOK at other systems, who knows. We can have all the theories we want, but without a significant sample to verify those theories all they can remain is that: theories.

So - this is SF. This is a game. There could be very good reasons for a central thumb that, because we don't have one, would and will never occur to us. It does makes for character development - just try to find a pair of gloves that fit! Don't like it - don't use it. But arguing about it from an evolutionary viewpoint when we've only 1 such viewpoint seems very solopolistic.

Just my opinion on this...

 

[aramis]

I own an umbrella cockatoo named galagher. he climbs all over the place but as I am sure you notice with your parrot they tend to use their beak as much or more to climb about than his feet. The beak is the parrots primary tool for interacting with its environment. in short you have made a very poor comparison. parrots are extremely clumsy when manipulating things with their feet and have a tendancy to drop what ever they are trying to play with. I know this from direct observation and so should you.

THe parrots I've dealt with didn't drop things much. The one who stole my keys was nigh impossible to get them from until he got bored of them.

Differentially abled, not disabled. Certainly no worse for fine manipulation than a tarsier or lemur, which while sharing the gross morphology of the primate hand, lack the ability to oppose all fingers.

 

[far-trader]

<quoted for truth, snipped for brevity>

...Just my opinion on this...

And thanks for making my points better than I was going to, and more kindly than I was momentarily inclined to

 

[Jamus]

So - this is SF. This is a game. There could be very good reasons for a central thumb that, because we don't have one, would and will never occur to us. It does makes for character development - just try to find a pair of gloves that fit! Don't like it - don't use it. But arguing about it from an evolutionary viewpoint when we've only 1 such viewpoint seems very solopolistic.
Just my opinion on this...

One example beats no example.
That said I would like for someone to show any reason why a central thumb would be evolutionarily more viable than a human hand. And keep in mind that we are not discussing a strange alien world drastically different from our own. we are talking about a feline like pouncer that evolved on a world very similar to our own. warm blooded bears live young lives in family groups that are strikingly similar to a pride of lions.

I like the Aslan to be honest, they are my favorite aliens in the canon I just feel they changed the hands for the sake of making the Aslan more alien because seven foot tall samarai cats are not strange enough? I liken my Aslan more to cliff climber from hunters of the red moon or those described in pride of chanur which it would seem were the inspiration for the traveller Aslan in every way except the implausable hands.

 

[coliver988]

One example beats no example....

but what if our 1 example where the only such case, and all the other intelligent life out there has central thumbs? Or tentacles? Or very expressive/manipulative tails/snouts/wings/whatever? We may be the exception. With 1 sample, and one currently living evolutionary path*, we can't say what is best necessarily. Heck - that's the point of SF - to play with possibilities. Of course it seems the most efficient way - it is the way we evolved. But that does not make it the only way, nor even the best: just the best for our planet (so far...).

I can see a central thumb as a better mechanism for fine motor control/manipulation - a much wider range to grasp little things.

*suppose the dinosaurs had not died out, and from this reading apparently they would have had a central thumb. If they became intelligent, well, then that would have been the standard. Or read authors like Hal Clement - life on a neutron star? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Clement). The universe, to quote Douglas Adams (I think) is big. Very big. Or Aliens, in space no one can hear you scream...sorry - I think that 4th cup of coffee kicked in!

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Lower tech alien industrial age stuff must be cool. Aslan stuff id image as horizontal pull rings on rod actuators with the lever releases inside the ring, instead of the human "steam locomotive" style mechanical lever. hmm..

 

[coliver988]

Lower tech alien industrial age stuff must be cool. Aslan stuff id image as horizontal pull rings on rod actuators with the lever releases inside the ring, instead of the human "steam locomotive" style mechanical lever. hmm..

Exactly! And the controls on modern starships would be easy for an Aslan but really difficult for non-Aslan. In game turns, DMs for piloting and what have you. Or an adventure simply to find replacement parts of your salvaged Aslan craft. All sorts of interesting ramifications from a simply differently actuated hand.

And don't forget warm mittens, to go with the fluffy slippers...

(and don't start on the old 'Kitten has lost her mittens' song...)

 

[Jamus]

but what if our 1 example where the only such case, and all the other intelligent life out there has central thumbs? Or tentacles? Or very expressive/manipulative tails/snouts/wings/whatever? We may be the exception. With 1 sample, and one currently living evolutionary path*, we can't say what is best necessarily. Heck - that's the point of SF - to play with possibilities. Of course it seems the most efficient way - it is the way we evolved. But that does not make it the only way, nor even the best: just the best for our planet (so far...).

I can see a central thumb as a better mechanism for fine motor control/manipulation - a much wider range to grasp little things.

*suppose the dinosaurs had not died out, and from this reading apparently they would have had a central thumb. If they became intelligent, well, then that would have been the standard. Or read authors like Hal Clement - life on a neutron star? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Clement). The universe, to quote Douglas Adams (I think) is big. Very big. Or Aliens, in space no one can hear you scream...sorry - I think that 4th cup of coffee kicked in!

These are all good points I will concede but the fact is we have and had the central thumb here on earth in numbers but the human hand won the evolutionary race. Consider the raccoon and monkeys. both are very successful and adaptable and the monkey is a warm blooded arboreal creature very similar to the proto-aslan.

Unless there is earlier data released on the Aslan we have to accept that at some point say 1984 the aslan went from having human like hands with three fingers retractable claws and an opposable thumb to the silly central fixed thumb set up we have today.

The earliest entry I have available for Aslan is library data for Twilight's peak which was 1980 and describes Aslan as having retractable claws and shows a aslan with clearly human type hands holding a dagger.

Next you have library data in 1981 which mentions the jack knife style thumb claw.

Then we have Aliens module 1 Aslan with the silly bird feet for hands Aslan.

I like the earlier more feline Aslan based on that one beautiful paragraph. I don't need weird and unbelievable biology to make an alien seem alien, That is just shallow. It is cultural and societal norms that make our favorite big cats uniques and interesting. The aslan are alien because of their strange and extreme segregation of duties based on sex and their adherence to an honor code most humans would have a hard time fathoming let alone living by. All the weird hands do is staple a plate to the fore head of a man painted green (star trek reference).

 

[danbuter]

I don't necessarily object to plagiarism, but I do object to such lame and cut-rate plagiarism. I think it speaks volumes about the cluelessness (and aimlessness) of MGT when its military supplement contains crap like shuriken catapults...

And the sad fact is that there's no reason to play MGT if you want a WH40K style game. You could simply play Dark Heresy...

So you don't allow battle dress in your games? That was pretty much stolen from Starship Troopers. But I guess that's different, since Mongoose didn't publish it. My hypocrisy detector is pinging...

 

[tbeard1999]

So you don't allow battle dress in your games? That was pretty much stolen from Starship Troopers. But I guess that's different, since Mongoose didn't publish it. My hypocrisy detector is pinging...

Then you need to get it fixed. You seem unable to make meaningful distinctions, but maybe I can help by restating the post that you replied to.

As I noted, I don't necessarily object to all plagiarism. But do object to lame and cut-rate plagiarism. Can't wait for lightsabers and dustbuster phasers...

There's also the little problem that things like shuriken catapults are ridiculous weapons. Their presence seems to validate the worst fears many Traveller players had about MGT -- that it would be a poorly conceived, amateurish, cliched, wholly derivative (of inappropriate source material), shallow and mediocre product that would be Traveller in name only. Of course, few of us actually thought it would wind up plagiarizing WH40K--about as different a science fiction universe as you can get from Traveller's universe. So in some sense, it's actually worse than feared...quite a feat, really.

<shrug>

Let's see...poorly conceived <check>, amateurish <check>, cliched <check>, wholly derivative <check>, shallow <check>, mediocre <check>...

Anything unclear here?

And by the way--AFAIK powered armor first appeared in E.E. "Doc" Smith's Lensman series (starting in 1937). Conceptually, HG Wells' Martians arguably had powered armor.

And Traveller battledress has nothing like the capabilities of Starship Troopers powered armor.

 

[aramis]

Actually, I see a lot of similarities in early 40K and early traveller, sufficient to think of 40K as "what became of the GW ATU"... The GW written modules fit very nicely in Traveller, but also fit very nicely in the early (40K Rogue Trader) universe before it grew.

Also, a 100 man drop company is about as big as you can deploy at TL16 under Bk2...

But I agree, pulling from it now is a bad idea, if only due to GW's known and noted litigiousness (not as bad as Palladium Games, but still).

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

That's always the problem with trying to make a game too real. It may also be the problem with calling an Alien species by its human name, rather than its alien name. Aslan = Lion man, and always will, but they're not.

If you want to give the creator some liscence, and understand that the creation of aliens, convincing, cool aliens, is hard, The basic principle is being able to present aliens in terms that the reader can understand and relate to. Especially if its 1981, and you've got a few pages to get your point across. It was only until later that the Aslan species was developed more detail, like getting its own language, ship designs, etc.

It's been my experience as a player and Ref that most of the griping about aliens and the like has more to do with not being able to make the effort for whatever reason to envision what a possible alien culture would be about, or like. That's a pretty hard part of a hard science fiction game. routinely, its "Darrians are Space Elves" or "Vargr are Dog-Headed People" or "Aslan are Lion Samurais".

These comparisons are good because they allow a casual player to get some quick idea about what an alien is like, but they do a great disservice to any work put into to making them not just a set of stats with a funny head structure.

 

[Jamus]

That's always the problem with trying to make a game too real. It may also be the problem with calling an Alien species by its human name, rather than its alien name. Aslan = Lion man, and always will, but they're not.

You think giving the Aslan a weird hand structure somehow makes them more real than a more believable human like hand structure? Aslan were named thus because they were lion men for the first couple of years traveller was around. then the powers that be decided to change them up and make them more alien.. I guess.

It's been my experience as a player and Ref that most of the griping about aliens and the like has more to do with not being able to make the effort for whatever reason to envision what a possible alien culture would be about, or like.

I have no issue with wrapping my mind around Aslan culture. I like Aslan culture. What I don't like is a unworkable hand tacked on three years on to what is basically a pride of chanur rip off. I do take note of your snide and underhanded insult. Some of you people with the attitude of superiority you exude need to reexamine yourselves. Because I like the original Aslan I am somehow to stupid to wrap my mind around Aslan culture? weak.

 

[tbeard1999]

You think giving the Aslan a weird hand structure somehow makes them more real than a more believable human like hand structure? Aslan were named thus because they were lion men for the first couple of years traveller was around. then the powers that be decided to change them up and make them more alien.. I guess.

The first official detailed mention of Aslan (AFAIK) was in JTAS #7 in the "Contact!" feature (1981). This article does not appear to support your contentions.

1. They were not merely "lion men":

"The earliest Terran explorers saw in them a vague resemblance to the terran lion and they have been described as lion-like ever since, although there is very little resemblance."

2. The middle thumb was part of the description from the beginning:

"Aslan have a single highly specialized claw under each thumb (see illo, p. 26) which folds back jacknife fashion into a horny covering in the base of the thumb and palm. Three fingers oppose a medially placed thumb, all sporting more ordinary retractable claws."

The illustration on page 26 very clearly shows this middle thumb.

This article was summarized and repeated in Library Data A-M (1981), as was the illustration on page 25.

Anyhow, FYI.

EDIT:

What I don't like is a unworkable hand tacked on three years on...

The only earlier mention of Aslan I can find is in Twilight's Peak (1980)*, which has a short Library Data entry on the Aslan. The illustration is rather crude and is, indeed, little more than a "lion man". No mention is made of the middle thumb, but I don't think that the crude illustration clearly shows human-like hands. The right hand of the Aslan *could* be a human-like thumb, but could also be an extended middle thumb.

"Aslan: Intelligent major race evolved from carnivore/pouncers on the world Kuzu, situated 135 parsecs rimward from Capital. Physically, the typical adult Aslan mases 100 kilograms, stands upright to a height of 2 meters, and is similar in needs and preferences to humaniti. They have good night vision, a heightened sense of smell, and retractable claws (vestiges of earlier days) which can still prove useful in brawls." --Library Data, Twilight's Peak

In any case, GDW appears to have finalized the design of the Aslan pretty quickly, as the two products above were published less than a year apart (JTAS #7 came in the first quarter of 1981).

*The "Aslanic Heirate" appears in the wargame "Dark Nebula" (1980), which is basically an Imperium clone with fewer units and random map layouts. No details are given of the Aslan, however.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

That's the exact picture that I am thinking of when we're talking Aslan. The one with the Leader type with both arms out, with the claws out. I think its a Kieth.

It was no slight, just an observation that there is a tendency to mentally construct and deconstruct and reconstruct these sorts of things in athro pomorphic or humanocentric terms based on that being all that we know. Understandable, considering that we haven't met any lion-like aliens yet in real life. I'm sure having a thumb to the side would be unbelievable to an Aslan for the first time as well.

I am not sure why this is so contentious a subject, or why interest in it makes me some kind of Traveller Snob. I'd love to see some kind of machine or tech made for non human hands, how the instrumentality and craftsmanship is handled. Anthropometrics (or Ergonomics) is a part of my job requirement, and I find myself thinking often of that kind of stuff. Sorry to offend.

 

[Jamus]

"Aslan: Intelligent major race evolved from carnivore/pouncers on the world Kuzu, situated 135 parsecs rimward from Capital. Physically, the typical adult Aslan mases 100 kilograms, stands upright to a height of 2 meters, and is similar in needs and preferences to humaniti. They have good night vision, a heightened sense of smell, and retractable claws (vestiges of earlier days) which can still prove useful in brawls." --Library Data, Twilight's Peak

In any case, GDW appears to have finalized the design of the Aslan pretty quickly, as the two products above were published less than a year apart (JTAS #7 came in the first quarter of 1981).

So we can all agree that the earliest mention of Aslan depicts them with human like hands and mentions retractable claws instead of jack knife style folding claws? I am not debating that Aslan got changed I am stating that I find the lion man Aslan, human hands and all, more believable than the later incarnation.

By your logic shouldn't you be loving on MGT instead of bashing it non-stop. It may have took awhile but looks like CT has finally been finalized by mongoose games.

The question becomes why change the hand? It does not help the story or make the species more believable. I think it was change for the sake of change which I am not a fan of.