• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

This is cool for SF and modern settings

Most definitely follows the Rule of Cool. If it can shoot the new thermobaric rounds I've seen on some weapons makers' websites then it will be even better for room clearing.

Even better when it can be configured to explode the rounds over the target withouthaving to have the data input manually in any way by the operator. That sort of thing is ok for a support weapon, but for building clearing and in a close combat situation you need the thing to be as simple to use as possible in as short a time as possible.

For now I don't see it as a threat to old fashioned hand grenades and mortars.

But it's still cool. I'd fill my pants if I saw one pointed at me anyway so that accomplishes half the mission. And I've been shot at so that's saying something.
 
Eclipse Phase has thermobaric rounds. If they're the same kind that you're thinking of then I'd treat it like a plasma grenade without radiation.
 
Guess this finally means there is no difference between "cover" and "concealment"

Actually, Cover means protection from fire, Concealment means the enemy doesn't even know you are there.

At any rate, I am damned glad the enemy didn't have anything like this when I was a groundpounder.
 
if anyone ever played a game called Battlefield: 2142, then thier was a weapon like this in that gane,

it was the single most annoying thing in the whole game. time and agáin it would reach out can hit me behind cover, or round a corner.

Even better when it can be configured to explode the rounds over the target withouthaving to have the data input manually in any way by the operator. That sort of thing is ok for a support weapon, but for building clearing and in a close combat situation you need the thing to be as simple to use as possible in as short a time as possible.

thats easy enough to do, just have a "CQB" switch or button which sets the round to detonate X meters beyond the rangefinder reading. then pop away!
 
http://www.army.mil/-news/2011/02/08/51518-army-wants-36-more-punisher-weapons-in-2012/

I hope we can discuss this without anyone saying they want to shoot a fellow member with it.

I'm thinking of rules for this for RPG settings.
Can I play this silly game too?
;)

Nah, its too cool looking to shoot you with it. Instead, Someone ought to just use it as a club on you.

:rofl:

If the comment about shooting someone on another thread is all that you got out of that thread, you need some serious help.

Dave Chase
 
<looks around to see if there's a CotI member that he'd like to shoot with that gun>

Nope, nobody here I'd like to shoot.

With my luck, I'd program it wrong and the bullet would swing around and hit ME in the butt, Wiley Coyote-style.
 
Eclipse Phase has thermobaric rounds. If they're the same kind that you're thinking of then I'd treat it like a plasma grenade without radiation.

The XM29 being tested at Picatinny has selectable HE and thermobaric rounds. Human Rights Watch was freaking out about that claiming it would be imhumane - which always makes me laugh when someone says that in regards to such things. I guess a thermobaric bomb is ok but a rifle firing smaller rounds for room and bunker clearing is too naughty. :file_28:

I like the plasma weapon idea, but I think something more like a HEAP grenade attack on the target (s) within the danger space or blast radius would work better. With autofire you could hit everybody in a corridor or room with the thing. And besides, they are still just 20mm, rounds so I think something with the penetration of plasma would be too much. Since it is the massive overpressure and the oxygen consumption (with the ensuing vacuum-filling shockwave after the fire) that causes thermobaric damage troops in sealed battle dress might be better protected than they would be against an expanding (or direct impact) plasma blast.

Still, it would be quite the decksweeper sans the risk of overpenetration damaging the hull or something important. Just mop out the room, bang out the dents in the bulkhead and it's all good.
 
Actually, Cover means protection from fire, Concealment means the enemy doesn't even know you are there.

At any rate, I am damned glad the enemy didn't have anything like this when I was a groundpounder.

The point I was trying to make was that being concealed can lead you into a false sense of safety with weapons like this being in cover isn't as safe as it use to be.
 
<looks around to see if there's a CotI member that he'd like to shoot with that gun>

Nope, nobody here I'd like to shoot.

With my luck, I'd program it wrong and the bullet would swing around and hit ME in the butt, Wiley Coyote-style.

:rofl:

Best thing I read all day. The imagery was great.

'Hey, sarge, how come we don't get any those programable round guns.
Because dmas, you would shot yourself in the ass with it.'

Dave Chase
 
I see they call them thermobaric now, I guess they decided the acronym one would get from the original term, "Fuel Air Grenades", was too politically incorrect.
 
Last edited:
Thermobaric explosives include FAE bombs, but strictly speaking are different in the way they detonate. The FAE has a faster explosive rate due to the type of fuel and position of the detonator. Big bang - fast bang. Good for daisy-cutters which was the way they were used by the US, say, in Vietnam for clearing jungle canopy.

What is now referred to usually as "thermobaric" is a weapon pioneered by the Russians that uses a type of powdered filler that explodes slower and expands through the atmosphere as it burns. The result is a cavity filling slow-burn explosion that heats the atmosphere beyond the temps needed for self-explosion of the bomb's filler. The overpressures created by this weapon are the same as a nuclear detonation. If used in caves, to use the most current examples in Afghanistan, the explosion doesn't burn out almost immediately, but instead follows the oxygen source all through the tunnel system, expanding and feeding on itself, extinguishing when the oxygen is consumed - not when the filler is consumed. Much more destructive weapon than an FAE.

Sorry to lecture, but it's a common misunderstanding. The thing that makes the weapon usable in a grenade round (the Soviets developed RPG loads with them for bunker busting) is that the "thermobaric" filler is a solid metal powder that scatters when the casing explodes and doesn't require the time to spray its' contents like a liquid filled FAE does. Just shoot/drop it and it goes off and expands from there. FAE's spray the filler in mist for a short time (the bigger the bomb, the longer the time), then the detonator goes off inside the cloud. The MOAB is an example - good videos are around showing it do that.

A thermobaric is fiendishly simpler and amazingly more efficient and the terms used to describe it vs. FAE get muddled a lot.
 
Thanks for that simple explanation, sabredog, I was one of those who had thought the two were the same thing. So, does this make FAE obsolete, or are there still uses (daisycutters, I guess) for which it is better suited than thermobaric?
 
No, the FAE still has it's uses (like the daisy-cutters and MOAB monster FAE). After all, the FAE is technically within the umbrella of "thermobaric".

Traditional, wet-fueled FAE's are used for more open air, area targets and the thermobarics are used more often for vehicle and bunker (or cave) busting since it is better suited to that. There is a wide range of each and sometimes they overlap in missions I imagine. And the dry-filler thermobaric is newer (the Soviets started using them in the 80's in ...gee, Afghanistan, for the same reasons we are now) and is again the current weapon of choice for the war in Afghanistan so that's what we hear about more often nowadays.

So since the US is engaged in two wars that seem to be requiring a lot of new ways to combat fortified (or at least hidden in caves/buildings/close quarters) enemies the weapons developers are looking for new ways to use the thermobarics for fast clearing of these enemies without having to go inside to dig them out. Geez, even if the fire and overpressure doesn't get them, these weapons just suck out all the oxygen way inside the structure while the firestorm is expanding, so the bad guys can't always just go deeper to escape. So they are in the news and weapons shows all the time now is all.

Nasty things.
 
Ya know, there is that Assault Rocket Launcher from one of the JTAS issues. If you combined that with an ACR you would probably end up with one of these XM25's.

To simulate the grenade round's cover-avoidance ability I would not use the "behind cover" modifier to the target, and make it a straight 8+ to hit. At higher TL's, or in autofire (if capable of) I'd use maybe a +2 to hit targets behind cover instead of the +4 the ARL uses for autofire.

Maybe at TL12 the thing could fire off a one-shot microdrone to do a fast 20 second recon fly-by of the target area which could be relayed back to a map box/battle computer combo. The drone would be in a thin frangible casing that would peel away after "launch" and then the drone would zip along taking video. When it's battery burned out the drone just falls to the ground and makes a small bang when it's microdot explosive anti-capture device goes off.

Just thinking...
 
Back
Top