Thoughts on the new Traveller game?

[Marchand]

I don't see how they can get around the restriction on communication no faster than the fastest ship in the Traveller universe. Players of MMOs routinely chat on headphones and mikes. Some games support it in-game.

If my PC is on Regina, and yours is on Terra, there's nothing to stop us calling each other up out-of-game.

 

[whartung]

I don't see how they can get around the restriction on communication no faster than the fastest ship in the Traveller universe. Players of MMOs routinely chat on headphones and mikes. Some games support it in-game.

If my PC is on Regina, and yours is on Terra, there's nothing to stop us calling each other up out-of-game.

Well, the simple truth is that there will be no communication delay. There will be no jump delay.

Nobody is going to pay anyone a dime to park their character for a week (or, truly, anything less than a couple of minutes) to travel in the game.

The longest flight in WoW is about 15 minutes long. That's if you fly from the northern part of one of the continents to the southern part. Back in the day, you used to actually do that. Mount up on a taxi and fly for 15 minutes watching the scenery pass by, or you're tabbed out doing something else.

Nowadays, you CAN do that, but nobody does. There are lots of mechanisms of instantaneous travel in the game to get you closer to where you want to be. So, realistically, traveling from any point to any other across the 9+ continents on 4 separate worlds is going to at most take 5 minutes.

I don't know how long it takes to travel in, say Eve, or No Man Sky. But there's simply the harsh truth of what players will put up with.

WoW is broken up in to 2 factions, in PvP players from one faction can attack players from the other faction. At one point in the game, players could not have a character of the opposite faction on a PvP server. Normally, the two factions can not communicate at all in game. The limitation about faction membership was ostensibly there to prevent someone from easily being logged in to the other faction and then logging out and logging back in to their home faction to relay something. Such as perhaps someone was getting a group together in the capital city to attack the other factions town.

That limitation is long gone, and trying to keep players from communicating outside of the game is essentially impossible. Today it's very easy for players to talk to each other, online, offline, from any faction, from any server.

Thankfully, "speed of travel" communication really only impacts story telling elements, not players. So, they could keep up some kind of facade, but since time is a ethereal concept in terms of character and world progression combined with server advancement, it's all really moot anyway.

 

[JimMarn]

Everquest is much the same way.

When I started playing it in 2004, a player had to learn what map connected to where, and run across multiple zones. It could take over 30 minutes to get somewhere else.

People complained that they didn't have the spare time.

So, the POK, plane of knowledge books on a pedistal, became common. Some characters can gate themselves. The furthest distances is from the moon back to the planet. Takes just a few seconds. The POK books would gate a character to another zone on the map.

People have called for the return of sailing ships to get from continent to another one. That takes up to 15 - 20 minutes. And even if your character is on top of the main mast, it can be killed by a shark attack. So the boats came back for a short while, then went away again.

For my paper and pencil games, I handwaved travel times. Two weeks of cross country teavel can be done in less than 5 minutes, because player characters taking the time to walk that distance is boring.

So, I would have 1 to 3 wandering monster encounters, pick one night for camping details. And ask them who is keeping watch when. Then roll to see if they are attacked.

Then they arrive at the new adventure area. 10 minutes of clock time for 2 weeks of in game travel time.

Happy players then.

 

[MichaelSTee]

I was thinking of writing a Traveller-like game (for my own enjoyment) as a coffee-break type game, where I would play my character/crew thru an encounter or a small situation (like handling a fight among passengers, or a conflict among the crew, as in Zozer's Solo) for about 10 minutes of play, and then not being able to log back in for, say, 4 hours, in which time the game would have moved on to the next day.
The idea is, once you finish a day, the game and the characters go to "sleep" until the next day.
Maybe one day I'll have time to actually write some code for it.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Sea of Thieves comment; I tried it out when it was out of beta, and the thing that strikes me is that everyone's a pirate. There are no legitimate merchants roaming the waves. Kind of like Everquest where everybody's a hero, and there are no peasants tilling the land, shearing sheep and so forth.

Ergo I think MMORPGs are, well, not that great, and not that original, and there's not much game to them.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Like the others have said, it could be done in manageable chunks. Start with a subsector, add another, add another, wash, rinse, repeat. Instead, their website mentions something about presenting the Domain of Deneb right off the bat. They're also going with scouts, navy, and mercs before traders.

No developers listed, still learning Unity, and a website which someone spending an hour at GoDaddy could do better than. My Kickstarter dollars will stay in my pocket for now, thank you.

SKYRIM is just a 6-mile "island" that has plenty of content and assets to fiddle with. But it's single-player only. There's already a No Man's Sky app out there to do just-more-of-the-same-planets for scouts to explore endlessly with almost no content or assets.

 

[Whipsnade]

SKYRIM is just a 6-mile "island" that has plenty of content and assets to fiddle with. But it's single-player only. There's already a No Man's Sky app out there to do just-more-of-the-same-planets for scouts to explore endlessly with almost no content or assets.

Those are good examples of working on-line games.

As several other people more knowledgeable than me about MMORPGs have pointed out, I don't know how this or any project can over the "One jump, One week" hurdle. Players are not going to sit still for any downtime anywhere near that length, yet any game without it won't be Traveller.

 

[ovka]

Those are good examples of working on-line games.

As several other people more knowledgeable than me about MMORPGs have pointed out, I don't know how this or any project can over the "One jump, One week" hurdle. Players are not going to sit still for any downtime anywhere near that length, yet any game without it won't be Traveller.

My guess would be two jump modes.
1. A week passes, and you travel instantaneously.
2. You tell it you want an onboard adventure, so you have a period of time where you can only interact with your crew and whatever shipboard stuff the game provides. You can switch back to mode 1 at any (almost) time to finish your journey and arrive at the next system.

The web site did say that time would be tracked differently for each player. That would almost have to mean that NPCs would have to know which characters they have interacted with (and when), and/or there would need to be a way to leave messages (TAS? at the starport?) so that players could eventually meet up ("Luke Skywalker said he said he left for Rhylanor on 021-1109, but would be back in this system around 057-1109.")

Cheers,

Baron Ovka

 

[Whipsnade]

The web site did say that time would be tracked differently for each player.

Leave aside the "synching" problem with NPCs, if time is tracked differently for each player what happens when players meet? They'll all be on different "days" depending on how many times each one traveled by jump.

While keeping each player "solo" in the universe of shared worlds and NPCs might help, isn't the points of a massive multiplayer online roleplaying game to have multiple players?

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

As several other people more knowledgeable than me about MMORPGs have pointed out, I don't know how this or any project can over the "One jump, One week" hurdle. Players are not going to sit still for any downtime anywhere near that length, yet any game without it won't be Traveller.

In the old days, the game would use a fast travel option and also have an interruption during fast travel where an on-board ship event might occur that needs playing out. But in these days, hard to say what mechanic such a game would use.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Ergo I think MMORPGs are, well, not that great, and not that original, and there's not much game to them.

Successful games are more about having addiction buttons that can be pushed to keep the players logged in.

 

[whartung]

As several other people more knowledgeable than me about MMORPGs have pointed out, I don't know how this or any project can over the "One jump, One week" hurdle. Players are not going to sit still for any downtime anywhere near that length, yet any game without it won't be Traveller.

There is no hurdle, and the "one jump, one week" does not define Traveller.

Just like going from M-Drives to HePLAR didn't break Traveller.

Just like having Virus run rampant and contribute to the destruction of 3I does not define Traveller.

All are components, of course, but they're not the totality of the game.

In WoW, many complain about travel (honestly, many complain about everything in that game -- nature of the beast with a diverse player base). If you can instantly move from Point A to Point B, the world loses its feel. What's the point of a big world if you can move instantly.

But, sitting on a pack mule/bus/train/airplane/starship for a half hour of travel doesn't work either.

This morning I was playing WoW, and I went of to do a quest. It was in an area I had not been yet. So I took a taxi that flew me out as far as I could (that took a minute or two), then I had to overland navigate to get to my destination on my "fast" mount (the game has slow and fast mounts). On the way, I grabbed other taxi points.

It took me several minutes to get there.

But, on the way, I got to see some new terrain, discover some new outposts, find to new quests to do in the future, etc. So, while it took time, I got play value over and above just "running around the world" (which can be nice on its own).

Next time I have to come to this area, I will take an air taxi even farther.

When I was done with my quest, I used an item call "the Whistle" which summons a flying taxi and then instantly ports you back to the nearest taxi point. So, I didn't have to cover that ground again, and go back.

Some folks see that travel as a waste of time. It's "not playing the game", but in fact, travel is an intrinsic aspect of the world, if not a particularly exciting one.

You could have a very Traveller "universe" without jump drive. You can still have Zhodani, Aslan, Vargr. You can still have the 3I, the Emperor, Nobles, etc. You can still have Free Traders and Scout ships and Air Rafts. You can still have cutlasses, shotguns and gauss rifles.

All sorts of parts to Traveller that can be used here.

 

[Whipsnade]

There is no hurdle, and the "one jump, one week" does not define Traveller.

There is a hurdle and jump drive does define Traveller

Communications lag is an inherent part of the game and jump drive creates that. Jump was part of the before the aliens you list. Jump was part of the game before the 3I and the Emperor. Jump was there from the beginning.

Comm lag is why trade works the way it does. Comm lag is why interstellar governments work the way they do. Comm lag is why you can't send for help and why the people on the spot must tackle any problems. Comm lag is why adventures happen the way they do.

Sure, you can easily reskin WoW or some other MMORPG with Aslan, shotguns, and air/rafts. Without comm lag, without jump drive, you won't be playing Traveller. You'll just be playing some other game wearing a Traveller party hat.

 

[ShapeShifter]

I've never really been a "video game guy". (However, I have fond and distant memories of the halcyon days of Pac Man, Space Invaders and Asteroids.) The raging juggernaut of the video game industry almost crushed and destroyed the RPG hobby (and, likely, historical miniatures wargaming, for that matter) and, just for that, deserves a contemptuous smirk. :nonono:

 

[ovka]

Leave aside the "synching" problem with NPCs, if time is tracked differently for each player what happens when players meet? They'll all be on different "days" depending on how many times each one traveled by jump.

While keeping each player "solo" in the universe of shared worlds and NPCs might help, isn't the points of a massive multiplayer online roleplaying game to have multiple players?

That's why I mentioned an in-game message service (either via NPC, TAS, or some other) so that players that don't have a way to connect outside of the game can connect inside the game. It might also be good to have the ability to do something like "let three days pass so that I can try to meet with character X."

I'm just throwing out ideas for handling time spent in Jump. I won't claim that my idea is the only way or even the best way.

Cheers,

Baron Ovka

 

[JimMarn]

I think it was in Le Guinn's books where a ship entering a solar system got updates on messages. Of course, the messages could be delatyed due to the ship's speed.

As the ship slowed down to 'normal' interplanetary speeds, more messages came in. Also the 'scan' of where planets, asteroids, and ships were located also updated.

This could be a way for players to connect.

Your character leaves a message at one solar system that they are on such and such ship, and are headed for Vega, as an example.

Your buddy in, shipping, exploration, etc., heads for Vega.

The two ships meet up there, and trade, etc. then move off to other solar systems.

 

[whartung]

There is a hurdle and jump drive does define Traveller

Communications lag is an inherent part of the game and jump drive creates that. Jump was part of the before the aliens you list. Jump was part of the game before the 3I and the Emperor. Jump was there from the beginning.

Jump is an inherent part of the ENVIRONMENT within which the game partakes, but it's not necessarily a first class concept during actual gaming.

I mean, I get it, I understand. Traveller implies traveling, and traveling means Jump. The society is structured around time lag. That's why it's feudal in nature, why it strives on self-governance, etc. Certainly a core, fundamental element of the background.

However, how many scenarios and adventures actually require Jump? Once you Somehow(tm) (whether by jump, train, air/raft, or donkey) arrive at Adventure Spot 2A, to partake in Adventure, Adventure happens.

Jump, subsectors, Dukes, the 3I, etc. Those enrobe and provide context to the adventures, but aren't (usually) first class items within the adventures themselves.

How many published adventures actually involve Jump? How many Amber Zones?

How many folks going to a convention to "play traveller" actually end up in Jump space?

I'm guessing not many.

Comm lag is why trade works the way it does. Comm lag is why interstellar governments work the way they do. Comm lag is why you can't send for help and why the people on the spot must tackle any problems. Comm lag is why adventures happen the way they do.

But all of that can be abstracted away. There's nothing stopping different worlds in a game from having different prices and such, imperfect information, imperfect markets, "manifest" through "jump". (Mind in a actual game, keeping something like pricing information unavailable to players who will route around ANY lag [jump or otherwise] is nigh impossible. The Internet Knows All.)

All of those limitations of jump can be expressed through narrative without actual mechanics in game. Sure you can still Jump from world to world, but, that's all it does "jump". Just like you can have "Orders from the Duke" who lives in the "Palace" that happens to be a closed off building no one can enter. You can still have a Duke and never see him.

But you're not going to be able to let Timmy play Traveller MMO, be on Regina, and chat out to his friend to come log in and play, and find his friend is 4 jumps away. "Sorry Timmy, I can't come and play, I won't be able to get their until next month, or, next day, or 4 hours from now.". As I said, WoW has travel, and back in the day it could take about 15 minutes to get from anywhere, to anywhere. While not "instant", it's much faster now.

In a single player game, Jump is easy to do. You have some outside constraint that's affected by time. You burn a week in Jump, and thus those constraints have more and more impact. But in clock time, you burned 5 seconds by clicking on the Jump button, watching a pretty display, and then arriving at your new locations.

Star Raiders, long ago, on the Atari did that really well. You had "Hyperspace" to go from sector to sector. If you "jumped" from one end of the map to the other, yea, you'd be in Hyperspace for a few seconds compared to if you just jumped next door. Long enough to make you feel you traveled farther, but a minor affect on actual play time.

But in an MMO, real time, calendar time, clock time, PLAYER time, is what's important. Not mythical game time, no matter how fundamental to the background it is.

 

[Whipsnade]

I mean, I get it, I understand.

No you don't. You're only focused on the trees rather than the forest they make up. You're only focused on individual adventures instead of the framework in which those adventures will take place.

MMORPGs offer people adventures which occur within a shared framework. That's their appeal. Adventures are not stand-alone missions which aren't effected previous event and whose results effect nothing afterward. The whole point of a MMORPG is to play within a large framework which your actions effect and which you share with other players.

However, how many scenarios and adventures actually require Jump?

Again, trees versus forest. You either cannot or will not understand that the adventures exist to influence the setting. Standing on Regina and either learning about or being effected by the actions of one player on Ruie only minutes after they happen is not Traveller. What makes Traveller Traveller instead of some other sci-fi property is the communications lag inherent within it's framework.

Once you Somehow(tm) (whether by jump, train, air/raft, or donkey) arrive at Adventure Spot 2A, to partake in Adventure, Adventure happens.

The adventures are a means and not the end. How the adventures' results effect the shared world and then effect other players is the end. That's why it's a multiplayer game and not a solitaire game.

Andy Slack's latest post at Halfway Station discusses the difficulties in "synching" two different time scales and it might help you understand the problem. You can read it here: https://hws3.wordpress.com/

 

[kilemall]

One thing that won't fly is several hours out to 100D. You either speed up or the limit is 10D.


Landing/takeoff sequences will be on rails. There will be 'fences' cutting you off from wandering around entire planets, or just getting procedural generated fluff.


It won't be a pure sandbox.


Now if Star Citizen actually panned out that could be a game engine to build upon as they are trying to do all the sort of things Traveller players would want to in freeform activity. But without going into that topic too much, doesn't appear to me that they have functional physics, they threw away the 'Snapshot' portion of their build and doesn't appear to be doing well in terms of scaling up numbers of people together.


The SC solution to people not being on was described as threefold.


When you are on, your character is awake- when you are off, the ship winks out and the character is 'asleep'.



The majority of the world is populated by NPCs. That way you don't have slow times and fast times and a lack of things to do when game pop is low.



If you want to join your friends who are online but whose characters/ships are in a different system then yours, you can 'agent Smith' an NPC and take over one to play together.



Since SC has the ethos of a shooter, there is no skill set/die roll, players play minigames to fix the ship/fly the ship/play Steward etc.


Eve on the other hand has die rolls/stats, and your character is constantly building up experience/skills even when you aren't playing, rewarding maintaining the subscription even offline. You are playing for your corporation, basically your tribe, and so you are all based in 'your' territory anyway.

 

[ovka]

If you want to join your friends who are online but whose characters/ships are in a different system then yours, you can 'agent Smith' an NPC and take over one to play together.

I was thinking that something like this would be required as well. Players create multiple characters so that they can play together while one character is away for a few weeks. Or perhaps, the game is setup up so that every PC travels with a group of NPCs that another player can take over for a little while. Or maybe, a player can grab an NPC at TAS or in the starport bar to play temporarily while the main character is travelling.

Cheers,

Baron Ovka