Throwing Grenades

[Supplement Four]

I've never been quite happy with the various versions of rules explaining how to throw grenades in Classic Traveller.

Some use the rule Book 4. Some use the "throwing blades" rule in Book 1. Some use the Snapshot rule. Some use the Azhanti High Lightning rule. And some use the rule in Striker.

And, those are only CT methods of throwing a grenade. Let's not forget that it's very easy to port over the hand grenade rule from MegaTraveller or the like.

All of these rules are different yielding varying results.

Here's how I'm going to handle throwing grenades in my game. It's a mesh of the Azhanit High Lightning rule, the rule from Book 4, and the Universal Game Mechanic.


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Throwing Grenades


Grenade (or Throwing)/DEX/+0

Typically, a CT character won't have Grenade or Throwind skill, but these are default skills. All characters have them at Level-0.

Note that DEX is referenced in the DMs below, so the UGM Natural Ability check is not performed on this task.

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Task DMs
------------------------------
DEX-11 or better +1DM
DEX-6 or less -2DM
Range 6-15m +0DM
Range 16-30m -1DM
Range 31-45m -2DM
Range 46-50m -3DM
Throw from behind cover -2DM
------------------------------</pre>[/QUOTE]Grenades are thrown at targets which are at Medium range (6-50 meters), unless a Critical Failure drops the grenade closer. Each character can throw only one grenade per round, but he can be treated as Evading. Frag and Concussion grenades use the Damage modifiers associated with a 4 cm RAM HE grenade (listed in Book 4), but the GM is encouraged to create other grenade versions. The blast radius of a typical Frag or Concussion grenade is 1 combat square distant from the target square (so a grenade, when it explodes, will damage the square it occupies and one square in every direction around the target square--a total circumfrence of around 4.5 meters).

Characters who throw from behind cover are subject to a -2DM on the task throw.

If the task to throw the grenade is successful, then the grenade hits the target square. If the task throw fails, then the grenade will scatter.

Use the scatter diagram located on page 14 of Azhanti High Lightning to determine scatter direction. The distance of the scatter is half of a 2D6 roll.

All damage from a grenade is applied randomly to a target's physical stats.

 

[Border Reiver]

My main comment would be to increase the negative DMs for range. In combat getting any kind of accuracy with a hand grenade in combat is incredibly difficult. Contrary to US military doctrine it certainly isn't like throwing a baseball. 30-40m is probably the top end for range.

I assume the -DM modifier forcover means throwing blind than throwing from cover.

A last consideration..the grenade (based on modern equivalents) have a 5m kill zone (or 10m diameter, around 3 squares in each direction) and a danger radius of 15m. This will look a little like overkill in game terms and in my experience grenades aren't all that deadly if you have any cover (although I've got the scars that say 5m doesn't mean kill). Any my point is perhaps a further square as a danger area for half damage.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Border Reiver:
My main comment would be to increase the negative DMs for range.

(snip)

I assume the -DM modifier forcover means throwing blind than throwing from cover.

(snip)

A last consideration..the grenade (based on modern equivalents) have a 5m kill zone (or 10m diameter, around 3 squares in each direction) and a danger radius of 15m.

I took all of those stats from CT.

The DEX mods are straight from Book 4.

The other mods, for range and throwing from behind cover, came straight out of Azhanti High Lightining.

And, the blast radius from the grenade is from most versions of CT: Striker, Book 4, Snapshot, and AHL. The grenades I've seen in CT damage the combat square the grenade "hits" and the HE rule damages each of the 8 squares around it--it's roughly an area 3 squares by 3 squares, which is 4.5 meters.

I didn't make up any of the DMs or stats--I pulled it all out of Traveller and slapped a UGM task roll on it (and the roll, by the way, of 8+ with the negatives for range, come straight out of AHL too.)

 

[mike wightman]

Shouldn't the thrower's Strength affect the range somehow?

I borrow from T2000 for grenade fragment attacks. In the blast square a roll of 6+ has you hit by fragments. Within the eight adjacent squares roll 8+ to be hit by fragments. In the secondary area 10+ is needed.

Final point, what about higher TL grenades?
Thermobaric, proximity fused airburst, that sort of thing.

 

[Border Reiver]

Thermobaric grenades have been around since TL4, though with improved explosive efficiency they become more effective for use in an external environment. Many people refer to them as assault grenades.

I would apply damage in the impact square only.

On the other hand as TL improves and the variety of grenades, hand or projectile, develop they'll need consideration.

T2K/TNE handles grenades quite well but as with most of that system, realism is traded off against speed of resolution. WJP' s solution is simple enough and more importantly fast.

Still it would be nice to include a secondary damage area for those near misses.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Shouldn't the thrower's Strength affect the range somehow?

I thought about that as well, Sig. Sure, STR has at least something to do with it. But, CT has used DEX when making throws (check out throwing blades in Book 1), and this makes sense, if you think about it. Coordination is a more important factor in throwing something like a grenade than STR. I'm sure there are a lot of big, bulky dudes out there who can't throw for flip.

If I had to pick one of the six Traveller attributes, I'd go with DEX over STR as well.

I borrow from T2000 for grenade fragment attacks. In the blast square a roll of 6+ has you hit by fragments. Within the eight adjacent squares roll 8+ to be hit by fragments. In the secondary area 10+ is needed.

Like it.

Final point, what about higher TL grenades?
Thermobaric, proximity fused airburst, that sort of thing.

As it states in Book 4, this is the realm of the GM to get creative with it.

I looked at the throw because I've got a little surprise for the players at tomorrow's game (Vemene commandos secreted in the large cargo container they brought aboard in the hold!). I've been waiting for the right moment to spring this on them--they have no clue.

These new Vemene have gas grenades, see... And, I needed to make sure I knew how I was going to run them throwing the grenades in combat.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Border Reiver:
My main comment would be to increase the negative DMs for range.

I was just about to agree with you, Border, but then I took a harder look...and I'm not so sure what Azhanti High Lighting is doing in the grenade rule is all that bad.

I'll explain...

First, remember, that the target is a 1.5m square. We're not talking a basketball hoop here. It's more like a combat infantryman's foxhole.

Under these rules, a character with average ability (DEX-7) would have these probabilities to lob a grenade into that foxhole.

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">DEX-7 Character throws a grenade
6-15m 2D for 8+ 42%
16-30m 2D for 9+ 28%
31-45m 2D for 10+ 17%
46-50m 2D for 11+ 8%</pre>[/QUOTE]Those numbers don't look too shabby to me. They're not that "easy" either. Even at the closest distance, an average person has a 58% chance of scattering off-target.

And, for the long range number--think about it. That's a dude trying to lob a baseball into the back of a pickup truck that is half a football field away. I'd say 8% is a good number for that, especially if the dude isn't a baseball player (if he was skilled, then he'd have better probability due to his throwing skill).

Those numbers are looking real fair to me. If I had any reservation, it'd be on the short-end. A 42% chance to lob a grenade into a doorway that is 6 meters away seems a bit "hard" to me.

Which has brought me to the conclusion that I need to fix that.

The DEX bonuses above, in the rule, come straight from Book 4: Mercenary.

The acutal rule for throwing comes (pretty much) straight out of Azhanti High Lightning.

For this little short range tweak I'm going to add to the rule, I've turned to the grenade rule in Snapshot.


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Throwing Grenades: Toss Option

Characters, when throwing grenades at targets of range 6-15m away can perform the throw using the task outlined above, or they can use this optional rule (which only applies to targets at 6-15m range).

The character can toss a grenade at a target at that range by making a DEX check:

2D for DEX or less

If this check is successful, the grenade lands in the intended square.

If this roll fails, then the grenade scatters for a distance equal to the amount thrown on the dice throw over the character's DEX score.

Note that some characters will have a better chance of success using the Grenade Throwing rule rather than this Toss Option.


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For example...

Jess, DEX-7, is throwing a grenade into a window of a house that is 10 meters away. Jess must roll 7 or less on 2D in order to hit the window.

If Jess rolls 10 on the throw, the grenade will scatter by 3 squares (4.5 meters).

Fricsh, on the other hand, with his DEX-4, has the exact same chance of success using either rule.

When Frisch is wounded to DEX-3, he's got a better chance of success using the Grenade Throwing rule rather than the Toss Option (2D for 10+ vs. 2D for 3-).

 

[Golan2072]

I'll probably use grenades the following way:
Hand grenades may be thrown only at targets which are at Medium range; there are no range modifiers (or, you could say, they have a range modifier of 0 for the Medium range and of "No" for the other ranges).

Throwing is governed by the Throwing skill, which is part of the "Gun Combat" cascade; al characters have Throwing-0 if they don't take this skill. Borrowing from Sup4's excellent work above, they have a penalty of -2 for DEX 6- and a bonus of +1 for DEX 11+. Cover applies to this as well (DM -2).

As I'm using a range-band combat system for most combat occurances, a failed throw is a failed throw; the grenade fails to hit any target. However, a failure by 2 or less means that it is only a near-miss, applying half damage to the target and anyone within Close or Short range to him. A Spectacular Failure results in the grenade falling too close to the thrower, applying half damage to him and anything within Short range from him.

Also, as I'm using a range-band system, area-effect damage is applied using "subjective" range from the target: anything within Close range to the target suffers full damage, and anything within Short range suffers half damage. Contrary to LBB4's Additional Damage from HE Rounds rule, there is no need to more than one attack roll: if the grenade hits the target, it hits anything within its proximity.

If I'll be using a grid (usually a ship's deckplan) for a particular combat, I'll use AHL's scatter diagram. Also, the grenade then will cause full damage to anything within 5m of the target square, and half damage for anything within 5m to 15m from it.

Another note: I don't use armor as a to-hit DM, but rather as a damage absorbant. HE grenades have an AP of 3 (that is, ignore three points of armor), while fragmentation grenades have an AP of 1 (that is, ignore one point of armor).

 

[Ranger]

Just a few quick points.

1. The grenade is a stunning weapon. It can produce casualties in the open, but that is not its main purpose. That is why soldiers are taught to announce they are throwing a grenade before they throw it, because it can (and will) stun friendly troops just as well if it is not anticipated. Grenades are used in the open to allow a unit to advance in the face of heavy fire by briefly stunning the enemy which allows the friendly force to close.

2. Grenades can also be used to clear defended positions such as rooms in a building or bunkers, but once again, they mainly intended for their psycological effect. Grenades are deadly in closed spaces, but that is from the concusion, not so much the fragmentation. When clearing a room, troops throw a grenade in, wait for it to detonate, then spray the room with fire when they enter. The intention is that who ever is in the room with either abandon it when they see the grenade come in, or be stunned by the explosion and unable to fire on the entry point while the troops enter.

3. The probability of a successful grenade attack is as much about if the enemy notices the grenade as well as where the grenade lands. If the grenade lands near the target, but the target doesn't notice it, then the attack will probably succeed because they target will be stuned by the surprising explosion. But, if the target notices the grenade, and it is far enough away they can just hunker down and ride out the blast while not being significantly effected because they were able to anticipate it. A grenade that lands right on the target and is notices is going to either force them to displace (remember, they get about 3 seconds to react) or still stun them if they remain in place because they are so close to the explosion. Unless the target freezes from the fear of seeing a live grenade, the only real chance to have to cause serious injury with a grenade is if you get it close to the target and they have no idea it is there, and therefore no real chance to react before it goes off.

So, bottom line, you don't use grenades to kill or even wound people as much as to stun them and give yourself freedom of movement to gain a tactical advantage.

Any rules for damage should take into account that the main funcion of grenades are to stun, and that they are usually only fatal in very small spaces when there is nothing (or no one) to absorb the concusion of the blast.

Also, I'd use Combat Rifleman skill as the primarry modifier here since grenade throwing is something that is taught in Basic Training for the Army and Marines, but only really focused on in Infantry units after that.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Ranger:
Also, I'd use Combat Rifleman skill as the primarry modifier here since grenade throwing is something that is taught in Basic Training for the Army and Marines, but only really focused on in Infantry units after that.

I like this idea - Combat Rifleman should cover not only rifles, but related tools and techniques of basic soldiery: hand grenades, rifle grenades, bayonets and so on.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
I like this idea - Combat Rifleman should cover not only rifles, but related tools and techniques of basic soldiery: hand grenades, rifle grenades, bayonets and so on.

That is a good idea.

I always buy into the thought of CT skills being broad in nature and far-reaching in scope: A few CT skills that do the work of several skills from other rpgs.

I'll consider this idea for my own game.

 

[Supplement Four]

BTW,

There are basically three types of "throws" in official CT rules. There's the basic throw rule from the basic books (Book 1 or the Traveller Book) that states: Roll 18+ using DEX as a modifier, etc.

Then, there's the grenade throw rule in Book 4, using the 8+ throw with a couple of modifiers.

Then, there's the implied Stat-check type of roll, where the GM just comes up with a roll on his own: "Oh, you want to toss that grenade up through the hole in the roof? No problem--just roll DEX or less on 2D..."

 

[flykiller]

Sure, STR has at least something to do with it. But, CT has used DEX when making throws (check out throwing blades in Book 1), and this makes sense, if you think about it. Coordination is a more important factor in throwing something like a grenade than STR. I'm sure there are a lot of big, bulky dudes out there who can't throw for flip.

you could use (str+dex)/2.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I let players narrate what they're doing, so I can decide what DMs to apply. If they don't narrate, their character is doing nothing at the moment. Just saying, "I throw a grenade" doesn't have much meaning.

 

[flykiller]

Just saying, "I throw a grenade" doesn't have much meaning.

sure it does. when the pin is pulled, mr. grenade is not your friend.

 

[McPerth]

To me, an important thing about trowing grenades is that it's quite different fom the usual throwing weapons in that you don't expect a direct hit, but a near miss may be nearly as effective.

Just a few quick points.

So, bottom line, you don't use grenades to kill or even wound people as much as to stun them and give yourself freedom of movement to gain a tactical advantage.

Any rules for damage should take into account that the main funcion of grenades are to stun, and that they are usually only fatal in very small spaces when there is nothing (or no one) to absorb the concusion of the blast.

Also, I'd use Combat Rifleman skill as the primarry modifier here since grenade throwing is something that is taught in Basic Training for the Army and Marines, but only really focused on in Infantry units after that.

Isn't that the same role as artillery (albeit at closer distances and in areduced way), to disrupt the enemy defenses (or attack) being more important than really killing them?

And yet artillery is often defined as the queen of the battlefield, producing many casualties...

 

[kilemall]

Reread the Striker rules for hand grenades, disappointed at lack of adjacent targets or burst radius effect, should at least be something like fragmentation effect for less then range 1.

The HEAP grenade is another of those 'can kill Battle Dress' weapons, but the subtlety of the frag/contact rule means its effectively -2 to hit.

Char stat mods are 7(-2) and 11(+1).

 

[Ulsyus]

Use the scatter diagram located on page 14 of Azhanti High Lightning to determine scatter direction. The distance of the scatter is half of a 2D6 roll.

Would you consider adjusting that for someone lobbing it a short distance, where the energy used to throw it is less likely to have it scatter 4-5m from the target? Or have you just figured that throwing it a short distance increases the to-hit mod sufficiently that they shouldn't have to worry about it?

I would apply damage in the impact square only.

You wouldn't increase the range of the concussive effects, or did you count that as other than damage?

Also, I'd use Combat Rifleman skill as the primarry modifier here since grenade throwing is something that is taught in Basic Training for the Army and Marines, but only really focused on in Infantry units after that.

A great idea. The default could still be used but modified accordingly.

Another thing to consider is that people who haven't thrown them before, or thrown them much, can get pretty nervous around the things. There's a few anecdotes to be heard about safety officers having to drag a recruit or private out of the throwing bay because they've dropped the thing after pulling the pin. Experience counts, but recklessness can pay back in the most unpleasant manner.

 

[flykiller]

Grenade Fail Compilation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYttKLl0MY0

 

[Brandon C]

I'd use Strength x 3.5 for range, in meters (a compromise between Twilight 2000 and GURPS formulas), but otherwise not use Strength for grenade throwing.