MGT Only: To SMG or Not - Comments Needed

[simonh]

Years ago I was told it isn't so much learning the different mechanism, other than the safety. But that the different pistols, rifles, shotguns, have a different balance point. Getting used to that was the bigger problem.

I have no experience in that myself.

I'm sure that's true. If you're a skilled shooter with one weapon at a variety of ranges and combat conditions, you will not immediately be as effective with a New weapon as you would your old one.

But would you be as ineffective as someone off the street that's never fired any kind of gun at any range or in any combat conditions? I find at hard to believe.

Also does the fact that this new gun is a shotgun make all that more difference than if it's a differently balanced, different caliber rifle such as e.g going from a bullpup 5.56 to a traditional layout 7.62? I have my doubts that the it is so much greater that your skill should be reset to zero.

That's the issue. I think too much time is spent picking on technical differences without considering the many, many overlaps in the huge variety of techniques and skills that make up combat effectiveness with any firearm.

Simon Hibbs

 

[MongooseMatt]

That's the issue. I think too much time is spent picking on technical differences without considering the many, many overlaps in the huge variety of techniques and skills that make up combat effectiveness with any firearm.

I think you are right. Two things (other than the comments of you great chaps) have been guiding me in this.

First off, a skill level of 1 is actually quite good in Traveller, and represents a fair level of training/experience. One thing that came across from listening to guys who received military training is that they do not get trained on just their assault rifle - they are expected to know something about everything. Also, that once they have had a short practice with a new weapon, they generally adapt to it quickly.

Second, I thought about what it might be like if we were revising vehicle skills and if I had put up Drive (wheeled) for discussion. There is _no_ way people would not have been lobbying motorbikes to be seperated from trucks

I think we have arrived at a place where most people will be happy, and the majority of the others have an optional system breakking things down further. If anyone wants anything beyond that, they are probably using their own house system anyway.

We have to remember this is a game, at the end of the day, and while we can make every system much more detailed and complex, one of Traveller's main attractions for people is that it is _not_ a complicated game that requires pages and pages of information just to describe combat.

 

[JimMarn]

I'm sure that's true. If you're a skilled shooter with one weapon at a variety of ranges and combat conditions, you will not immediately be as effective with a New weapon as you would your old one.

But would you be as ineffective as someone off the street that's never fired any kind of gun at any range or in any combat conditions? I find at hard to believe.

Also does the fact that this new gun is a shotgun make all that more difference than if it's a differently balanced, different caliber rifle such as e.g going from a bullpup 5.56 to a traditional layout 7.62? I have my doubts that the it is so much greater that your skill should be reset to zero.

That's the issue. I think too much time is spent picking on technical differences without considering the many, many overlaps in the huge variety of techniques and skills that make up combat effectiveness with any firearm.

Simon Hibbs

I agree the skill shouldn't drop to zero for those familiar with weapons.

I do remember myself and others at Navy boot camp with the M-1 Garand at the rifle range. Some of the guys had hunting experience and had no problems using the Garand correctly first time. The rest of us were a bit confused. I only fired the Garand that one time as I wasn't a Gunner's Mate. We were told they would get additional training.

Later on I used a .45 pistol on guard duty. Our training consisted of firing at boxes tossed off the stern of the ship, while were out at sea.

I know my dad, who went into the Army, got extensive training on many different weapons.

 

[simonh]

We have to remember this is a game, at the end of the day, and while we can make every system much more detailed and complex, one of Traveller's main attractions for people is that it is _not_ a complicated game that requires pages and pages of information just to describe combat.

Absolutely, the problem with detailed mechanics is they inevitably end up focusing attention on a few particular concerns which end up obscuring the bigger picture of what's happening in the game.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Limburger59]

Laser weapons being direct sight would make aiming dramatically different. If you aim a laser like a slug rifle, you will shoot over the head of the target. On the other hand, a beam weapon might need to stay aimed at the target for some period of time. Unlike a slug rifle that sets the trajectory the instant a bullet is fired, a laser may require the ability to hold the beam on target for a short time - perhaps a skill similar to firing a flintlock rifle where the delay from the flash in the pan to the ignition of the chamber requires a very steady aim. Along the same lines, firing a laser anywhere might be very similar to firing a slug thrower in zero-G ... no gravity again means no arc which means aim at what you want to hit with no adjustment for drop.

So I see the need for two functional sets of aiming skills ... 1. Adjust for range and drop or 2. hold steady line of sight.

If the weapon skill includes maintenance and repair of the weapon, then there is also a need to split the weapons by basic technology ... maintaining a laser is very different than maintaining a slug thrower and both are different than maintaining a gauss weapon.

I would agree with atpollard. There is more to using a weapon than pulling the trigger. There are many weapons that I believe I could aim and fire with a relatively low negative die modifier, but I'd spend way too much time figuring out how to clear the jam and reload, let alone disassemble and assemble with the lights out. Those extra seconds of panic clearing the jam on that SMG, when you're use to swapping laser rifle power packs in the dark contribute to the -DM.

I'm positive I could hit something with a circa 18th century cannon if it was already loaded...anybody have a lighter I can borrow?

 

[salochin999]

simple

Personally I just use ranged cbt as one skill and the player picks one weapon as their fave and they use that weapon at the specified skill level and all other ranged weapons at one skill lower e.g. if they get gun cbt skill and they pick shotgun they put shotgun-1 and other ranged weapons are now all skill-0.

Although there are lots of differences between different weapons I don't think a game like Traveller gains anything as a game by differentiating between them at the skill level.

It matters at the weapon level because weapons have - or can be made to have in game terms - specific functions and so by picking their primary weapon players are in effect picking a function which in turn implies a tactical style. In game terms those functions might be:

1. Single shot accuracy over long range (laser rifles, sniper rifles, automatic rifles in that order)
2. Weight of fire over medium to long range intended to achieve suppression and morale loss (automatic rifles at long range, assault rifles at medium range)
3. Short range deadliness (SMGs, shotguns, assault rifle)
4. Convenience and short range self-defense (pistols)

nb There's no clear distinction between auto rifle and assault rifle but it's an example of how you can make distinctions for game purposes i.e. one is good at accuracy or suppression at long range and okay at medium range while the other is good at medium range suppression and short range deadliness.

Suppression fire provides a reason why automatic slug throwers would still be in use (assuming auto lasers aren't available).

 

[nats]

I dont really care too much what skill is used for SMGs, but the simpler the better is my preference, so keep it lumped under existing ones. Supplement 4 introduced some daft skills that were only used for one weapon and I hated that - so I had to change all mine manually to make some sense of things like flame throwers etc (as if anyone is going to choose a flame thrower skill!).

My only beef was that the SMG was my favourite weapon from Classic Traveller and it wasnt in the Mongoose Core Rules book at all. But the fact is, for me, an Assault Rifle is pretty damn close to a SMG. So I would just rename Assault Rifle as SMG and forget the issue ever existed.

 

[salochin999]

I dont really care too much what skill is used for SMGs, but the simpler the better is my preference, so keep it lumped under existing ones. Supplement 4 introduced some daft skills that were only used for one weapon and I hated that - so I had to change all mine manually to make some sense of things like flame throwers etc (as if anyone is going to choose a flame thrower skill!).

My only beef was that the SMG was my favourite weapon from Classic Traveller and it wasnt in the Mongoose Core Rules book at all. But the fact is, for me, an Assault Rifle is pretty damn close to a SMG. So I would just rename Assault Rifle as SMG and forget the issue ever existed.

That's sort of what happened. If you take the weapons as representative of eras you'd get a sequence something like (very roughly)

era 1)
SMG (short range)
Rifle (medium range)
Light Machinegun (LMG) (long range)

era 2)
assault rifle (hybrid SMG and rifle) (short/medium range)
automatic rifle (hybrid rifle and LMG) (medium/long range)

era 3)
improved auto rifle (hybrid assault/auto rifle) (short/medium/long range)

So having the specific weapon - associated with specific tech levels - with its specific strengths and weaknesses for encounters on a planet with that tech level makes sense but the higher tech assault rifles should be capable of both medium range shoulder aimed fire (like a rifle), close range spray and pray from the hip (like an SMG) and long range support fire with a tripod (like an LMG).