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Trade Stations, Scout Posts, Beacons, and Bazaars - the Class E Starport Startown

Per capita income of a TL12 world is Cr14,000. Construction time for a 100T ship is 9 months. Your shipyard will be producing 1.33 ship per year or MCr39.2 worth of ship. So we're talking the pci of 2800 people.

Then you have no way to take advantage of economics of scale effects and you need to have system defenses strong enough to fend off anyone with a corsair who decides to pop in a help themselves to a MCr29.4 piece of very portable wealth.


Hans
 
Does the population code include all the personnel living and working exclusively with an A-class' highport? Not part of the planet as such, living and working entirely on a station that sits at a LaGrange point or such? That doesn't solve the problem of why it's there, but could it reconcile the port code with the population code?

You might argue that it depends where they live. If they live within the extrality line of the starport (presumably in SPA-provided or rented apartments/quarters), then they are not counted in the planetary population code, but if they live in "startown" or otherwise have a residence outside the extrality line, then they are counted in the planetary population code.

Treat it as one of those endless "loopholes" found in bureaucracies everywhere, including the IISS.
 
You might argue that it depends where they live. If they live within the extrality line of the starport (presumably in SPA-provided or rented apartments/quarters), then they are not counted in the planetary population code, but if they live in "startown" or otherwise have a residence outside the extrality line, then they are counted in the planetary population code.

Treat it as one of those endless "loopholes" found in bureaucracies everywhere, including the IISS.
Living inside or outside the extrality line they still have the same economic footprint, and it doesn't answer the question of why there is enough traffic to warrant the facilities of a Class A starport. Which doesn't just mean the existence of a shipyard with a capacity of 100T, but excess capacity enough to provide annual maintenance, repairs, and ordinary service to visiting free traders.

The main question is not really how 400 people can run a Class A starport; it's how 400 people can provide the economic basis to support a Class A starport. Remember, a class A rating don't just require a shipyard; it requires various other facilities. Even if someone ran a small 100T shipyard employing 400 people, why would anyone have the economic incentive to run a Class A starport?


Hans
 
Living inside or outside the extrality line they still have the same economic footprint, and it doesn't answer the question of why there is enough traffic to warrant the facilities of a Class A starport. Which doesn't just mean the existence of a shipyard with a capacity of 100T, but excess capacity enough to provide annual maintenance, repairs, and ordinary service to visiting free traders.

The main question is not really how 400 people can run a Class A starport; it's how 400 people can provide the economic basis to support a Class A starport. Remember, a class A rating don't just require a shipyard; it requires various other facilities. Even if someone ran a small 100T shipyard employing 400 people, why would anyone have the economic incentive to run a Class A starport?

Oh agreed. I was just expanding upon Ulsyus's point about explaining the population code possibly hiding the fact that there are more people associated with the world than might be immediately apparent.

As to why the port is there and/or the sense of having an A-Class Port in such a locale (and its viability), that is an entirely different question.
 
Per capita income of a TL12 world is Cr14,000. Construction time for a 100T ship is 9 months. Your shipyard will be producing 1.33 ship per year or MCr39.2 worth of ship. So we're talking the pci of 2800 people.

Then you have no way to take advantage of economics of scale effects and you need to have system defenses strong enough to fend off anyone with a corsair who decides to pop in a help themselves to a MCr29.4 piece of very portable wealth.


Hans

Comparing Norway's $102k per capita GNI to Russia's $14k per capita GNI, suggests that there is some room to deviate from the average. (data from wikipedia)

... and your source?
 
Comparing Norway's $102k per capita GNI to Russia's $14k per capita GNI, suggests that there is some room to deviate from the average. (data from wikipedia)

... and your source?

Norway's extremely high per capita income is heavily biased by the offshore oil production earnings, factor those out and it drops drastically. Russia's per capita income is also boosted by oil exports, but to a much lower degree. Russia has a broad-spectrum industrial base, Norway does not.

Norway's population estimate for July, 2014, from the CIA World Factbook is 5,147,792. Combined crude petroleum and refined petroleum exports, not counting natural gas exports, are about 2 million barrels per day. That comes out to about 140 barrels of petroleum exported for every Norwegian, and if you assume a value of roughly $100 per barrel, then the petroleum exports represent about $14,000 per Norwegian for per capita income. Norway is also exporting 107.3 Billion cubic meters of Natural Gas per year. That comes out to roughly 20,800 cubic meters of natural gas per Norwegian, or 734.240 cubic feet. The average US price for exported natural gas per 1,000 cubic feet in 2013 was $4.06. That is pipeline gas, not liquified natural gas. That would represent an additional $2,980 per Norwegian for natural gas exports, assuming the US export price was used. I am not sure if that would apply, based on the fact that the natural gas was being produced in off-shore wells, so the price was likely higher. As a minimum, about 30% of Norway's per capita income is due to energy exports, and not industrial production.

Also, the CIA World Factbook gives the following as the estimated 2013 per capita income of Norway: $55,400. The Russia per capita income from the same source is $18,100. I would put a much higher level of confidence in the CIA figures compared to any figures from Wikipedia.

The equivalent in Traveller could be a world with an extremely productive silver mine, such as Potosi in Boliva, which could generate a very high per capita income for a small number of people, without the ability to support any significant industrial base.

The information on US Natural Gas prices is based on the US Energy Information Administration, which is a very valuable resource on both US and World Energy production and pricing. The US CIA World Factbook is available as a free download from the CIA website, just search CIA World Factbook.
 
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CT doesn't really give you a picture of the traffic through a starport, just a player's eye view of the trade picture. GURPS offers a calculation which could generate anything from no ships at all for weeks at a time - for low pop E-ports with no significant neighbors - to E ports hosting half a dozen ships daily up to and including a couple or three 5000 dTonners a week for places like Retinae, or twice that for a place like Rethe. Whether you buy into GURPS at all, it is reasonable to think that an E-port at a world with tens of billions of people is going to get more traffic than an E-port at a world with a colony of a couple hundred people.

That being the case, the nature of the E-port is going to vary considerably with the local circumstances. The E port that sees no ships for weeks at a time may have nothing more than the port warden's home with the living room doubling as his office, and the wire may be as much to keep the cattle off the landing pad as to demarc the port zone. (In which case there's this neat trick in cattle country where you dig a ditch across the road and then lay pipes width-wise across the ditch with a few inches between pipes, so that cars can cross it but cattle won't try to cross it.) And you may have to wait a few hours if the port warden is out tending cattle or something when you land.

On the other hand, the E port at a more populous world may look a lot like that frontier stretch described in the initial post.

On the most densely populated worlds, where the governments have shown no interest in organizing a starport or promoting interstellar trade, there may be several E-ports set up at scattered points around the planet by the handful of companies that do engage in some interstellar trade, little more than a landing pad so that the stuff they order can arrive close to their own factories and warehouses, with the understanding that the arriving ship is responsible for its own fueling ("he gestures in the direction of the ocean"), and whatever amenities and services exist near the port are there more for the company's workers than for visiting ships - though certainly the bar and the inn will be more than happy to accept your trade. Or local law may prohibit you from leaving the company's property entirely, and the best you're going to get is the company's snack bar - under guard.

...Then you have no way to take advantage of economics of scale effects and you need to have system defenses strong enough to fend off anyone with a corsair who decides to pop in a help themselves to a MCr29.4 piece of very portable wealth. ...

Assuming any orbital facilities are in near orbit, a few ground-based missile launchers and a decent computer ought to be sufficient to dissuade most corsair-size ships. They'd be needed anyway or the corsair could just take orbit and extort a ransom in exchange for not dropping missiles on the locals.

I wouldn't have a colony without at least some kind of rudimentary defense against that sort of extortion. Any world with a pop in the thousands can afford a couple or three 10dT fighters or a solidly armored orbiting 100 dt planetoid SDB to make visitors play nice. I can offer a nice deal on a TL9 model for less than 40 million credits, armor is almost impervious to turret-based weapons short of a nuke or a factor-8 or better battery. For MCr 6.4 I can offer a sweet little TL9 6dT 6G fighter; a couple or three of those will have a corsair thinking twice.

Any world with a pop in the hundreds ought to be able to afford a defense system consisting of a computer and a few ground-based missile launchers. A PDFC and gatling can be installed at some high point where it can cover a small colony for about Cr250,000 or so, providing coverage for the launcher and the colony while the missiles pursue the attacker.
 
Assuming any orbital facilities are in near orbit, a few ground-based missile launchers and a decent computer ought to be sufficient to dissuade most corsair-size ships. They'd be needed anyway or the corsair could just take orbit and extort a ransom in exchange for not dropping missiles on the locals.
But would a corsair be able to extort MCr30 worth of portable wealth from just any population of 400 people?

I wouldn't have a colony without at least some kind of rudimentary defense against that sort of extortion.
That begs the question. Why build starships on a world that lack adequate defenses in the first place? Paying for adequate defenses will increase the cost of building the ships, making them less competitive (this was also the point of my remark about being unable to take advantage of economics of scale effects).

Any world with a pop in the thousands can afford a couple or three 10dT fighters or a solidly armored orbiting 100 dt planetoid SDB to make visitors play nice. I can offer a nice deal on a TL9 model for less than 40 million credits, armor is almost impervious to turret-based weapons short of a nuke or a factor-8 or better battery. For MCr 6.4 I can offer a sweet little TL9 6dT 6G fighter; a couple or three of those will have a corsair thinking twice.

Any world with a pop in the hundreds ought to be able to afford a defense system consisting of a computer and a few ground-based missile launchers. A PDFC and gatling can be installed at some high point where it can cover a small colony for about Cr250,000 or so, providing coverage for the launcher and the colony while the missiles pursue the attacker.
Any world with MCr30 worth of portable wealth is at risk of becoming the target of more than just one 400T corsair. A half dozen of them could band together and still make a profit out of a raid.


Hans
 
Which bits would have to be accepted and which bits ignored?

I was thinking about various world writeups. Though come to think of it, the question has mostly been whether transients were included in the population figure or not.

There's also the trade rules that are all based on the assumption that the population indicated in the UWP is the effective population for freight nad passenger purposes, and, counted or not, anyone working in a starport (or anywhere else in the system) would effect traffic just the same as anyone else.


Hans
 
But would a corsair be able to extort MCr30 worth of portable wealth from just any population of 400 people? ...

Not unless this was one remarkably rich crowd, no. If I were forced to rule, I'd say whatever the players could score in the way of trade goods, the pirates could grab for free, plus maybe a few thousands to tens of thousands of credits in cash, jewelry, portable tools and equipment depending on how thoroughly they shook down the population. Maybe grab a couple air/rafts, if anyone has one, maybe grab some tractors or other large high-value items depending on what kind of resources they have to bring such to the ship. It's certainly enough to make the effort quite profitable unless the colony had some means of defense, but nowhere near the value of a ship.

...That begs the question. Why build starships on a world that lack adequate defenses in the first place? ...

My point was the defenses were there in the first place. The pirates of old did not confine their depredations to the sea lanes. It was not common for them to raid or extort small port towns, nor for such towns to mount defenses when pirates were about. There's no reason to believe a pirate of the far future, with a streamlined ship or boats or vehicles to make landfall, wouldn't play the same tune. Where frontier people are threatened by wolves, they take action to defend themselves from the wolves. It is reasonable to expect small settlements to mount whatever defenses they can afford when the game says there are pirates overhead. If those defenses are adequate to deter the typical pirate from preying on the locals, they will most likely also be adequate to deter the typical pirate from preying on things floating in near orbit.

...Any world with MCr30 worth of portable wealth is at risk of becoming the target of more than just one 400T corsair. A half dozen of them could band together and still make a profit out of a raid. ...

Now that is the more credible threat. Given the lucrative nature of the prize, could the interstellar crime community organize sufficiently to take the prize?

That, I would argue, is game-dependent. I've argued elsewhere - and before - that there's absolutely no reason an Imperium can't keep one or two police-cruiser sized ships or even ships of escort size patrolling every Imperial system. In such a setting, piracy survives by corruption and subterfuge: suborning some crewman to commit carefully timed sabotage, tricking or bribing the ship to be out of place at key moments, and so forth. The colony keeps its own defenses primarily because the Imperial track record in preventing piracy is poor enough to result in that "pirate" encounter table result.

Given that base assumption, the seizure of a ship out of the yards is a very bold and daring act. Certainly doable but likely to draw unhealthy levels of Imperial attention, if for no other reason than that the Imperium's own ship on the scene got jumped or proved either criminally corrupt or embarrassingly inept, and some group of investors with pockets deep enough to build and maintain a Class-A starport ship construction yard is furious over your 30 million credit failure and demands to know what you are going to do about it.

That's not to say it can't happen. Modern history has quite a few very bold, very daring, very well organized criminal acts of breathtaking scope: tens of millions of dollars in diamonds stolen while in transit, world-famous paintings spirited out of well-protected museums. However, they are breathtaking precisely because they are difficult and extremely risky, both in the execution and in the long-term business of getting away with it, and therefore very rare. Being rare, they have not put a halt to the targeted acts: folk still ship large quantities of diamonds, and museums still hang world-famous paintings for public display, and most likely those who found a magical way to profit from building ships in some absurdly low-pop system would still do so.

That does depend on the base assumption though. If one does not accept the idea that the Imperium is patrolling systems or acting vigorously to put down large-scale piracy, then it becomes very difficult to explain a class-A starport in a highly vulnerable setting without invoking levels of local defensive arrangements - and levels of production that would pay for such arrangements - that should push the population up quite a bit.

The real question still boils down to why someone would assemble a ship construction facility in a location that lacked both the infrastructure and the level of traffic to warrant such a facility. Even if the facility is entirely robotic - which is a stretch below TL13 and not easy then - there have to be people to supervise and direct the robots, people to manage the acquisition and/or production of materials and machinery used by the shipyard, people to build and maintain those people's homes, people to operate the grocery stores and pharmacies and restaurants those people use, and so forth, and so forth. Even if the world is a "company town", a substantial fraction of the population is dependents, service workers providing essential support services, and dependents of those service workers; at best a third of the population are likely to be directly employed by the company.
 
How many squadrons of gazelles can a sub-sector IN base dedicate to routine patrols of every world in the sub-sector?

Then there is the para-military patrol cruiser; how many squadrons of those are patrolling the systems in a sub-sector?

How many of those two types of ships can be tasked to patrolling all those low population systems with type A star ports and shipyards? Let's not forget low population worlds with B star posts and the small-craft yards they have, those would be ripe for pirate raids too.

Fact is that the OTU is awash with enough military and paramilitary ships to guard these systems against pirate activity.
 
Not unless this was one remarkably rich crowd, no. If I were forced to rule, I'd say whatever the players could score in the way of trade goods, the pirates could grab for free, plus maybe a few thousands to tens of thousands of credits in cash, jewelry, portable tools and equipment depending on how thoroughly they shook down the population. Maybe grab a couple air/rafts, if anyone has one, maybe grab some tractors or other large high-value items depending on what kind of resources they have to bring such to the ship. It's certainly enough to make the effort quite profitable unless the colony had some means of defense, but nowhere near the value of a ship.

Have you given any thought into how difficult it might be to put large pieces of agricultural equipment onto the average Free Trader or Corsair? Have you looked at how large the typical corn combine is? Also, agricultural equipment is going to have a limited market depending on how specialized it is. The more specialized, the more likely it is to have strictly scrap value.

As for cash and jewelry, given that items like that are relatively easily hidden, that is not likely to represent that much of a value to a corsair. How large a crew do you think that the average ship is going to have? The buccaneers of the Caribbean typically attacked settlements as part of a combined effort, not individual ships, and the crews were fairly large. Are you telling me that the crew of a corsair, which might be 20 persons, is going to be able to thoroughly cover even a small village? The more dispersed the crew is, the more likely they are to being shot in the back. If the valuables are buried, or taken into the backwoods or planetary equivalent, what is the corsair expected to get as a profit?

Originally Posted by rancke
...Any world with MCr30 worth of portable wealth is at risk of becoming the target of more than just one 400T corsair. A half dozen of them could band together and still make a profit out of a raid. ..

Now that is the more credible threat. Given the lucrative nature of the prize, could the interstellar crime community organize sufficiently to take the prize?

Again, how many crew members does the typical corsair have? How much of a split does every crew member get, and how much goes to the ship? Thirty million credits in portable wealth could include things like water-borne yachts or fishing boats, planetary vehicles (wheeled, tracked, and grav), mining equipment, the previously mentioned agricultural equipment (to include things like manure spreaders, plows, harrows, hay mowers/rakes/balers, and milking machines and milk cooling tanks), and possibly some non-grav atmospheric flyers. Aside from the problems of taking it away, the corsair might be lucky to get 10 centicredits for the Credit.

Low-population planets make for very poor targets for raiders, unless they are pleasure planets, in which case, they are going to have some serious planetary defenses.
 
There's also the trade rules that are all based on the assumption that the population indicated in the UWP is the effective population for freight nad passenger purposes, and, counted or not, anyone working in a starport (or anywhere else in the system) would effect traffic just the same as anyone else.

Hans

Yup, you nailed that one. By that reasoning, there could be an A class port on a low population world, but in normal circumstances there won't be much in the way of crowds seeking passage on a vessel.

Not unless this was one remarkably rich crowd, no. If I were forced to rule, I'd say whatever the players could score in the way of trade goods, the pirates could grab for free, plus maybe a few thousands to tens of thousands of credits in cash, jewelry, portable tools and equipment depending on how thoroughly they shook down the population. Maybe grab a couple air/rafts, if anyone has one, maybe grab some tractors or other large high-value items depending on what kind of resources they have to bring such to the ship. It's certainly enough to make the effort quite profitable unless the colony had some means of defense, but nowhere near the value of a ship.

I can't say for certain about other parts of the world, but around here thieves of all sorts look for high value low volume items to steal, unless they've got their own wheels and motors. That makes it much easier to transport away from the scene. Though, they'll also travel to an area, steal a car, burgle houses, then drive away in their stolen car...

It seems to me that pirates would be looking for large expensive items. Power plants, sensor equipment, microfactories, medical equipment, scientific equipment that could be dual-purposed. Big ticket items rather than penny-pinching or penny-&-dime stuff.
 
...It seems to me that pirates would be looking for large expensive items. Power plants, sensor equipment, microfactories, medical equipment, scientific equipment that could be dual-purposed. Big ticket items rather than penny-pinching or penny-&-dime stuff.

I'm not sure how much of that there is to find on a world of 400 people, which is the pop Rancke offered. I can't see pirates going out of their way to rob a little hamlet, but they might do it in passing while on the way from A to B. Not a whole lotta reason not to, if they happen to be in the area and the place has no defense.
 
No intentional hijack meant but this thread could also apply to 'bare-bones' orbital-deep space facilities in less-populated systems or along lesser-trafficked Express-Courier routes.

Any takers giving such it's own separate discussion ?
 
I'm not sure how much of that there is to find on a world of 400 people, which is the pop Rancke offered. I can't see pirates going out of their way to rob a little hamlet, but they might do it in passing while on the way from A to B. Not a whole lotta reason not to, if they happen to be in the area and the place has no defense.

Could that depend on the TL of the 400? Plus the actual wealth of the settlement? In this thread was included the idea of bots doing a lot of the work, so 400 people could be the meaty part of a 10000-man operation mostly run with mechanical assistants. If that's the case, there may be some pretty useful stuff. Oh, oh, it just occurred to me! Expensive specialist bots used for resource extraction or somesuch, which would be welcome in other systems willing to not ask too many questions!

No intentional hijack meant but this thread could also apply to 'bare-bones' orbital-deep space facilities in less-populated systems or along lesser-trafficked Express-Courier routes.

Any takers giving such it's own separate discussion ?

Nah, that fits here nicely. Corsairs taking on a station though may have to be careful about defensive systems a station may be able to mount. A 25000 ton facility doesn't have to be a military installation to mount a bunch of anti-missile laser systems, nor a pile of missile launchers used in concert with a passive sensor piquet giving it an edge against raiders.
 
I concur that that sounds like a thriving D port to me, not so much a C-port.

I think it sounds like the line between a D port and an E port. It does have the complete lack of fuel, repairs and port control that the rules-as-written say it would. Though I'd put in a Port Warden and a few security guards and still call it an E port.

Plus you could have it still be an E port and have people offering private unofficial fuel and/or repairs that the Imperium either doesn't know about or overlooks as being private enterprise.
 
...Scorched Earth? Are we thinking reaction drives here? And the Landing Pads are going to have to be fairly substantial, unless bedrock is close to the surface, as your starships are going to weigh several hundred to thousands of tons (even in a Small-Ship Universe), and are going to need something reasonably firm to rest on. ...

Makes an interesting point. One presumes that some ships at least can land in open fields on plain-ol' dirt, else it makes exploration a bit tricky. Certainly true of a scout, maybe not true of a fully loaded Hercules. However, the traditional Type E "bare spot of bedrock" actually takes a bit of work on most worlds that would have a soil layer. They either have to search out someplace where it's exposed or shallow, which may be some distance from wherever most folk have settled down, or they have to dig down a few feet or more - maybe a lot more - wherever the settlement happens to be. Even on worlds with little soil, the surface is likely to be weathered rock and dust, likely adequate to support the smaller ships but maybe not for the larger ones.
 
No intentional hijack meant but this thread could also apply to 'bare-bones' orbital-deep space facilities in less-populated systems or along lesser-trafficked Express-Courier routes.

Any takers giving such it's own separate discussion ?

I have had that as a scenario. A orbital in a "remote" system that isn't heavily trafficked that acts as a cosmic gas station. It's abandoned and the crew needs fuel and some common spare parts...

Of course, there isn't any other populated place in the system (I make the assumption that this occurred between the last time a scout was there and the party showing up) to go so...
 
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