Traders and Gunboats Defender Class SDB

[Hal]

Hello Folks,
I thought I'd divorce the thread hijacking (my fault to be sure - sorry Hans) from another thread and open it up for its own discussion.

Earlier in another thread, I pointed out the fact that any attempt to recreate 100%, the stats of the Defender class System Defense boat (page 35 of Traders and Gunboats) was impossible, and that the ship design information does not match that of High Guard second edition, nor that of High Guard first edition, nor that of Book 2 of the little black books. One CAN use High Guard Second edition and recreate the USP given on page 46 for the Defender class SDB, but that if done using High Gard second edition, the crew size does not match, nor does the cost of the ship matching the USP for the Defender class match that given in Trader's and Gunboats. In a design that matches exactly the USP given, I end up with 6 staterooms, scoops and fuel refining equipment, needle/wedge hull, 9 levels of armor, agility 6, power... (well, you get the point - the created USP matches that of the USP given on page 46).

What was interesting however, at least to me, was an article in JTAS #9, titled appropriately enough SDB by John Lewis. In it, he writes:

"Strategists contend that a properly deployed system defense boat force can
repulse invading star fleets up to twice their tonnage, and can hold down other
invading star fleets for weeks or months if properly deployed. The defense
strategy is a three part plan."

I wondered - could a defending fleet, comprised only of the Defender class SDB, defeat an invading fleet of the same tech level, but up to twice the tonnage of the defending fleet?

As I, with the help of those on CT-STARSHIP, discovered, it is not only possible for an invading fleet to be able to defeat the defending fleet with twice the defending fleet's tonnage, but it was possible for an invading fleet to defeat the defending fleet of Defender class SDB's with an equal or even lesser tonnage in hulls.

The one class ship I created, was the Dominator class hull, tentatively labled as a cruiser because of its Type L spinal mount and its 48,000 dton hull. Stats wise, this is the Dominator:

CZ-N1368F3-090106-00L09-0 MCr 54,684.708 48 KTons
Weapons:
28 Factor 9 sandcaster batteries
10 Factor 6 Repulsor bays
6 Factor 9 Missile Bays
1 Factor 1 Nuclear Dampner field
1 backup Factor 1 Nuclear Dampner field

Batteries Bearing:
Sandcasters: 24x factor 9
Repulsor bays: 8x factor 6
Spinal Mount: 1x Type L spinal partical accelerator
Missile Bay: 5x Factor 9
Crew: 536 (271 staterooms)

Cargo: 18.000 Fuel: 18,240.000 EP: 3,840.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail: 48 Marines: 40
Craft: 2 x 40T Slow Pinnace
Backups: 1 x Factor 1 Nuclear Damper

A single Dominator can go up against 125 Defender class ships without too much difficulty. A single Dominator class ship SHOULD be able to handle up to 600 Defender class SDB's without too much difficulty.

In short? The adage "SDB's can handle up to twice their tonnage" when such SDB's are TL 12 Defender class 400 dton hulls - should be taken with a grain of salt. Had there been a fleet of

 

[far-trader]

...
A single Dominator can go up against 125 Defender class ships without too much difficulty. A single Dominator class ship SHOULD be able to handle up to 600 Defender class SDB's without too much difficulty.

Reminds me of a few D&D games. High Level character (let's say a single 12th level Paladin with all the magic kit he can carry and then some) is out for a walk in the woods minding his own business when suddenly he hears a snickering echoing around him from the darkness. Oh no! He is surround by hundreds of evil woodland denizens (let's say 200 Gnolls with their simple weapons of mayhem) bent on having their way with him. Is our Paladin doomed?! Certainly looks that way. I mean how could he possibly prevail...

...oh yeah. That's right. By the rules, the Gnolls can't hit him. By the rules he automatically hits them, and with multiple attacks and massive damage kills a few each round. The bodies pile up around him and without breaking a sweat (or taking the time to change his position) about an hour later of boring endless swinging of his great sword and constant clanging of harmless blows ringing off his platemail he stands atop a small hill of bodies as the last few Gnolls finally wise up and run off to tell the tale. The Paladin disdainfully climbs down from the pile of bodies and goes home to nurse his headache from the noise. His only injury of the day*.

In short? The rules do not handle superiority of number factor. The rules do not handle terrain advatage. The rules do not work for extremes. Not in D&D. Not in Traveller. It's not the kind of situation they were ever meant to be used to play out so they don't work.

The adage "SDB's can handle up to twice their tonnage" when such SDB's are TL 12 Defender class 400 dton hulls - should be taken as writer's embellishment, nothing more Though I do think there might be some truth to it if the situation were properly gamed. Certainly the rules could be adjusted to factor things such that it would be true. How broken the rules would be is another question.

* to be fair, in one of those games another character died when he slipped and fell in a dirty puddle, not from the fall, and no it wasn't a puddle of dirty acid or poison, just teeming with a nasty virus that gave him the sniffles of death, in a couple minutes o: ahh, those were the days :rofl:

...maybe the Dominator could succumb to a virus too

 

[RandyT0001]

So the 400 dton SDB can't really defend very well. Sound like to me there is a big need for a new design of an SDB.

It's late and I'll return tomorrow.

 

[far-trader]

A new SDB design is one possible answer. But we might need to "fix" the rules of engagement first

I hope you don't take my first reply above the wrong way Hal. Your interest in and working out of this is of interest to me as well, though from a different angle. Like Randy though, it's late so I'll have to save more thoughts for another day

 

[drnuncheon]

A single Dominator can go up against 125 Defender class ships without too much difficulty. A single Dominator class ship SHOULD be able to handle up to 600 Defender class SDB's without too much difficulty.

Here's a couple of things that I might consider, just from a thought experiment perspective from someone who is not all that familiar with the rules.

1) how much ammunition is the Dominator carrying for the missile bays? Does it have the endurance to actually strike back and eliminate those SDBs?

2) With 125:1 odds, the SDBs only have to get lucky a couple of times. The Dominator has to get lucky a lot.

 

[Gray Lensman]

A quote

"Because non-starships can allocate more tonnage to power plants and weaponry, they can usually defeat a starship of equal tonnage."
Supplement 7 Traders & Gunboats, page 35

This has always been my take, but I tend to 600 Dton SDBs so that I can include 2 triple Sandcaster turrets (Factor 5 in 1 battery or Factor 4 in 2).

Equal Tonnage to your Dominator would be 80 SDBs, hmm I wonder......

I think I will run these numbers thru Masconi's High Guard Dice Roller this afternoon.

 

[rancke]

"Because non-starships can allocate more tonnage to power plants and weaponry, they can usually defeat a starship of equal tonnage."
Supplement 7 Traders & Gunboats, page 35

This seems so obviously true to me that I've always taken it on faith. The question is, can they also defeat a starship of equal cost? At a guess, I think it can, because the starship includes a relatively expensive jump drive. But I also think the advantage is less than for the equal tonnage (Because non-starships costs more, ton-for-ton, than starships. And the equal cost starship probably has more hardpoints).

Note that all the above is guesswork. One of these days I hope that someone with a better handle on TCS than me will sit down and analyse this question.

This has always been my take, but I tend to 600 Dton SDBs so that I can include 2 triple Sandcaster turrets (Factor 5 in 1 battery or Factor 4 in 2).

And let's not forget that Fighting Ships introduced monitors, non-starships that are to SDBs as heavy cruisers are to Type Ts. System defenses have come a long way since T&G.


Hans

 

[Gray Lensman]

ouch

80 factor 3 missile batteries
3 hit 0 pen :nonono:
80 factor 4 laser batteries
2 hit 0 pen :nonono:
Then the big boy gets to shoot back:rofl:
toast: x 80)
I didn't go any further that, why bother
or maybe I did it wrong I'm not a big battles guy.

 

[Hal]

A new SDB design is one possible answer. But we might need to "fix" the rules of engagement first

I hope you don't take my first reply above the wrong way Hal. Your interest in and working out of this is of interest to me as well, though from a different angle. Like Randy though, it's late so I'll have to save more thoughts for another day

Hi Dan,
For what it is worth? You've been quite the gentleman in all the years I've ever interacted with you - so you've built up a healthy credit of "Dan's not the type to insult people needlessly". Even so, what you wrote didn't even remotely come across poorly, or as an insult to me.

There are some issues I have with the CT material present in the JTAS publications as well as the CT rules as presented in both High Guard and Book 2: Starships. That having been said, I am looking at material today in new light simply because I have access to a nice computer that can crank out calculations for me, as well as a nice handy HGS program to design ships.

That being said, there is also one other factor to consider. Today, I possess something that I didn't have before - and that is an actual copy of the first edition rules of High Guard (courtesy of the internet). For that one facet alone, I can now compare/contrast designs between both versions of High Guard, and compare them against those ships that were published in JTAS or other subsequent designs in the supplements.

In any event, I agree that there are some "holes" in the High Guard rules that need to be fleshed out - which sadly, can only be fleshed out as "house rules" by enterprising GM's who desire to put the work into it. For instance, High Guard mentions that there is a vulnerability to ships attempting to refuel, and that the High Guard was named in honor of the formation required to protect ships engaging in refueling. Is it not interesting however, that High Guard itself, does not provide rules for what happens when ships attempt to refuel and are attacked during this period of vulnerability? What kind of effects are involved when a ship becomes "vulnerable"?

For example - one could rule as GM, that sandcasters become totally useless in a gas giant atmosphere of sufficient depth, and that standard atmospheres for ordinary worlds will also render sandcasters ineffective. Ok, that makes sense to a degree. What about Agility? What if someone implemented the rule that Unstreamlined ships can't enter the atmosphere (Oops! THAT rule does exist <g>) and that semi-streamlined ships lose ALL agility while in an atmosphere, and that wedge shaped ships retain all their agility? All others lose 1 or 2 points worth of agility while in an atmosphere. What if, size modifiers also lower agility while in an atmosphere? As you can see, there are some options worth exploring.

As for munitions depletion in High Guard? Unfortunately, that is a major glaring weakness in the game. However, we do have some "hope" when it comes to adapting already existing rules in Book 2: Starships for use with High Guard. Theoretically speaking, there is no difference between a turret weapon system in High Guard, and in Book 2: Starships right? Note that on page 32 of Book 2: Starships, it has a small paragraph listing reloading times for...

Turrets <g>

In a nutshell, each turret holds enough munitions to discharge 3 salvos before needing to be reloaded. Each munitions system (sand and missile) requires 1 turn to reload, which means that a triple turret containing 3 missile launchers, would require 1 turn to reload all three launchers with only 1 missile salvo each, or it would take 3 turns to reload missile salvos to be able to fire 3 successive salvos. But take this to an extreme...

High Guard states that you only need one gunner per battery. A battery of say, 30 sand casters, would require 30 turns to reload for another 3 successive battery uses, or, it would take 10 turns to reload ALL 30 sandcasters with ONE load of munitions! Either that, or 30 sandcasters in 10 turrets, would require 10 men to reload for one salvo's worth of defensive sand caster use in 1 turn.

In short? We would have to redo the entire High Guard design strategy as far as crewing, unless you consider the prospect that the reloading process is done via auto-loaders. (When you get down to it, that makes the most sense - especially in light of the naval design strategy of wet naval ships back in the late 70's and early 80's).

What should be the real limiting factor then, is how much munitions can any given ship carry for any given battle? Well, we do have the following information:

Measure of Volume per dton
Measure of volume for a missile
Measure of volume for a weapon system that fires a missile
Measure of volume for a sand caster
Measure of volume for a cannister of sand

All that is lacking then, are rules for the storage of munitions within a ship.

In any event? What might prove to be interesting is for two people to design ships without too much worry about cost being involved. Team A designs Starships, with a tonnage limit of say, 200,000 dtons, while team B designs System Defense ships, with a limit of 100,000 dtons of hull space. Utilize a common TL (I suggest 12 just cuz), and see what happens. Can a large scale small hull tonnage fleet take on a larger (twice the tonnage) invading fleet of the same tech level?

Try it out and see what happens. A single Dominator class warship against a fleet of Defenders augumented by a few "capital class" defense ships utilizing say, Meson spinal mounts, might make all the difference in whether or not the Dominator class ship will be useful for clearing out the System Defense Boats. A Single Dominator class craft pitted against say, 48 1,000 dton hulls might prove to be interesting if said 1,000 dton hulls were to be armed with a single Missile Bay. In checking the numbers, I found that a Factor 9 nuclear missile strike will render a Nuclear Dampner useless against the factor 9 missiles, and can even possibly penetrate a factor 6 repulsor defense (on a roll of a 12+). This in addition to utilizing a model 6 computer, will cut down a little of the advantages that the Dominator class ship enjoys against the Defender class SDB. The thing is? Once the defensive team begins to build 1,000 dton hulls, the next stage of the "evolution" design of the attacking fleet is to build ships capable of withstanding a large number of 1,000 dtons worth of SDB's. (As it is, against strictly 1,000 dton hulls armed with 1 missile bay, the Dominator class hull handles itself pretty well. It isn't as "impervious" as it was against the 400 dton hulls).

 

[Hal]

Here's a couple of things that I might consider, just from a thought experiment perspective from someone who is not all that familiar with the rules.

1) how much ammunition is the Dominator carrying for the missile bays? Does it have the endurance to actually strike back and eliminate those SDBs?

2) With 125:1 odds, the SDBs only have to get lucky a couple of times. The Dominator has to get lucky a lot.

As it turns out, I ran the numbers using the High Guard rules. First, in response to your question regarding how much ammunition is the Dominator carrying? High Guard rules never addressed the issue, assuming it seems, unlimited munitions. That is one thing that should have been fixed in 1985 or so <g>.

As for item #2...

Doing the math and using the rules as written, this is what happens:

The attacking ship's computer size is 5 versus the defending ship's computer size of 6, becoming a -1 penalty overall not only to the "to hit" value, but also to the "to penetrate value". Keep this in mind as it is very important.

The Defender's agility of 6 shifts the require roll from a base 5+ to hit, to a base 11+ to hit. When you add in the fact that the target ship has a size modifier of +1, this lowers the to hit value from 11+ to 10+. But the computer size modifier changes it yet again, from 10+ back to 11+

Now, that is if the missiles are being fired at the target while it is at long range. If the range closes to "close range", there is a further penalty of -1, which means that the to hit roll changes from 11+ to 12+

With 125 missiles, the odds of securing a hit with a 11+ is 8%, or roughly 10.4 hits at long range, or only 3.4 hits with a roll of 12+ (ie 2% chance of probability).

Lasers on the other hand, have the following issues: The base to hit for a factor 4 laser is 6+ at short range. At long range, this becomes 7+. The same modifiers that applied to the missile attack, applies to the laser attack, so:

6+ (for factor 4 attack) + 6 (target's agility) -1 (Target hull size) +1 (computer size difference) = 12+

At long range, the additional penalty of +1 makes the to hit for lasers equal 13+ (ie, not possible).

So, long range: The Defender class SDB can only hit with, on average, 10.4 hits (Lets call it 14 just to adjust for some lucky hits). At long range, none of the lasers can hit, so the odds of hitting with lasers is 0.

Now, lets allocate the 8 repulsor factor 6 defenses and the 24 factor 9 sand defenses against 14 hits.

The roll to penetrate a factor 6 repulsor screen with a factor 3 attack is...18+. Remember that computer size penalty also applies to penetration rolls, so that 18+ actually becomes 19+ on 2d6. Not possible, so any repuslor defense allocated automatically will stop a single hit. We know as the defender, that any of those missiles we allocate a repulsor defense against, will be stopped. So we decide to allocate 1 defense measure against 8 missiles, and allocate the remaining 24 sand casters against 6 missiles. That's 4 sand casters per missile.

The odds of penetrating a factor 9 sandcaster defense with a factor 3 missile attack is... 11+. Remember, the computer size modifier affects penetration as well, so the factor 3 missile attack roll to penetrate becomes 12+. What are the odds of a single missile penetrating 4 sandcaster defenses with rolls of 12+? Pretty slim actually. I calculate it to be .00006% chance of happening.

So, even with ELEVATED chances of success (14 hits instead of 10.4), the Dominator class ship can take everything that 125 Defender class SDB can throw at it. Even if you DOUBLED the number of successful hits, from a base 10.4 to 21 hits, the Dominator's defenses would be:

8 Repulsor bays against 8 missiles = 0 hits from 8 missiles
21-8 leaves 13 missiles to defend against:

Allocate 2 sandcaster defenses against 11 missiles
Allocate 1 sandcaster defense against the remaining 2 missiles.

Odds of penetrating 2 sandcaster defenses for 11 missiles is only .08% (not .08 or 8%, but .00077 rounded to .0008). Not a likely event, but possible none the less.

Odds of penetrating 1 sandcaster is only 2% - the "lucky hit" you mentioned.

Now, if one utilizes Nuclear missile strikes, the ship's Nuclear Dampner at factor 1 means that all nuclear attacks have to undergo on further "penetration" roll. The odds of a factor 3 missile strike penetrating a factor 1 Nuclear dampner is on a roll of an 8+. As ever, computer size modifier affects the penetration value, raising it from 8+ to 9+.

In short? With the rules as written for High Guard, and with the numbers of "average statistical hits", the Dominator class ship can handle not only the average hits, but also the statistically unlikely "double the normal expected hits". Only if DOUBLE the expected statistical norm impact on the Dominator, are we ever likely to see the potential for a really lucky strike.

 

[Hal]

"Because non-starships can allocate more tonnage to power plants and weaponry, they can usually defeat a starship of equal tonnage."
Supplement 7 Traders & Gunboats, page 35

This has always been my take, but I tend to 600 Dton SDBs so that I can include 2 triple Sandcaster turrets (Factor 5 in 1 battery or Factor 4 in 2).

Equal Tonnage to your Dominator would be 80 SDBs, hmm I wonder......

I think I will run these numbers thru Masconi's High Guard Dice Roller this afternoon.

With the rules as written in HG 2nd edition, a factor 9 missile strike needs to roll a 2+ to hit its target. If it does manage to secure a hit despite the target's size modifier and its agility, it needs to then roll to penetrate the target ship's defenses, which in the case above, would be a factor 5 sandcaster defense. The roll required to penetrate a sandcaster screen 5 with a factor 9 missile is 1+. In short, a factor 9 missile that impacts on a 600 dton hull as give above, will succeed 100% of the time in penetrating its defenses.

 

[Hal]

This seems so obviously true to me that I've always taken it on faith. The question is, can they also defeat a starship of equal cost? At a guess, I think it can, because the starship includes a relatively expensive jump drive. But I also think the advantage is less than for the equal tonnage (Because non-starships costs more, ton-for-ton, than starships. And the equal cost starship probably has more hardpoints).

Note that all the above is guesswork. One of these days I hope that someone with a better handle on TCS than me will sit down and analyse this question.


And let's not forget that Fighting Ships introduced monitors, non-starships that are to SDBs as heavy cruisers are to Type Ts. System defenses have come a long way since T&G.


Hans

In responding to Han's question of whether or not the Dominator can handle a fleet of Defender class ships of equal cost - the answer is yes.

By using the HGS program to recreate the Defender class ship based on its USP given in Traders and Gunboats, I get the following information:

Ship: SB-98076
Class: Defender
Type: System Defense
Architect: GDW
Tech Level: 12

USP
SB-41069E2-900000-40003-0 MCr 585.932 400 Tons
Batteries Bearing:
1 Missile factor 3
1 Laser factor 4

Crew: 11


Cargo: 44.000 Fuel: 36.000 EP: 36.000 Agility: 6
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 5.859 Cost in Quantity: MCr 468.746

This means then, that to equal the cost of the Dominator at its 54,684.708 original prototype cost, we'd need a total of...

54,684.71 MCr (cost of prototype Dominator) / 468.746 MCr (cost of Defender in quantity) or 116.6617059 Defender class SDB hulls to equal the cost of 1 Dominator.

That means then, that tonnage wise, if the Dominator class ship can handle 125 without breaking a sweat, then it can just as easily handle less Defender SDB's for an equal value of budgets.

Edit (Afterthought): To be fair, a more reasonable test of the adage of SDB fleets being able to beat up to 2x its tonnage, should permit for Monitor style hulls. Pick a hull size total for the defense fleet, and I'll design a fleet (at TL 12 of course) at double its tonnage, to see if it holds equally true for Monitor based fleets versus just SDB based fleets of 400, 600, or even 1,000 dton SDB's.

 

[Gray Lensman]

Okay, I'll Bite

Ship: North Pole
Class: Polar Class Defense Monitors
Type: Orbital Defense Monitor
Architect: Gray Lensman
Tech Level: 12
USP
SM-R1069F3-C91106-80L09-0 MCr 145,401.440 100 KTons
Bat Bear F F F 1 F Crew: 965
Bat M M M 1 M TL: 12
Cargo: 5,829.000 Fuel: 9,000.000 EP: 9,000.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail: 100
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/6 Computer 1 x Factor 1 Nuclear Damper 1 x Factor 1 Meson Screen
Architects Fee: MCr 1,454.014 Cost in Quantity: MCr 116,321.152

Detailed Description
HULL
100,000.000 tons standard, 1,400,000.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge Configuration
CREW
89 Officers, 876 Ratings
ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-9, 9,000.000 EP, Agility 6
AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/6fib Computer
1 Model/6 Backup Computer
HARDPOINTS
Spinal Mount, 42 100-ton bays, 540 Hardpoints
ARMAMENT
Particle Accelerator Spinal Mount (Factor-L), 21 100-ton Missile Bays (Factor-9), 330 Triple Beam Laser Turrets organised into 21 Batteries (Factor-8)
DEFENCES
21 100-ton Repulsor Bays (Factor-6), 210 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organised into 21 Batteries (Factor-9), Nuclear Damper (Factor-1), Meson Screen (Factor-1), Armoured Hull (Factor-12)
1 Nuclear Damper Backup (Factor-1), 1 Meson Screen Backup (Factor-1)
CRAFT
None
FUEL
9,000.000 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant
MISCELLANEOUS
965.0 Staterooms, 5,829.000 Tons Cargo
USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None
COST
MCr 146,855.454 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 1,454.014), MCr 116,321.152 in Quantity
CONSTRUCTION TIME
200 Weeks Singly, 160 Weeks in Quantity
COMMENT
please, nobody ask for deckplans:rofl:

 

[Hal]

80 factor 3 missile batteries
3 hit 0 pen :nonono:
80 factor 4 laser batteries
2 hit 0 pen :nonono:
Then the big boy gets to shoot back:rofl:
toast: x 80)
I didn't go any further that, why bother
or maybe I did it wrong I'm not a big battles guy.

Ok, I'm going to assume the following:

1) You built your 600 dton hulls to be more or less equivalent to the 400 dton hulls
2) That you built your hulls to contain a model 6 computer instead of a model 5 computer
3) That your ship utilizes an agility 6 design philosophy, 9 armor levels, etc.

Base to hit with a factor 3 missile at long range is:

5 (Factor 3 missile attack) + 6 (Target agility) - 1 (Target size modifier)... net 10+


Base to hit with factor 4 laser at long range:

6 (Factor 4 beam attack) + 6 (target agility - 1 (Target size modifier)... Net 11+

Odds of rolling a 10+ = .167 or 16.7%
Odds of rolling an 11+ = .083 or 8.3%

80 attacks at Long range with missiles x .167 = 13.33
80 attacks at long range with lasers = 6.67

Defense Allocations:

8 repulsors - one each on a missile
14 sandcasters against 7 laser attacks
10 sandcasters against 6 missiles (2 each on 4, and 1 each on two)

net result:
8 repulsor missiles automatically defeated.
7 laser hits must penetrate twice rolling an 11+ to succeed
4 missile hits must penetrate twice rolling an 11+ to succeed
2 missile hits must penetrate once rolling an 11+ to succeed.

Total hits: 21
Total defense allocations: 32

If any of those missiles were nuclear attacks, then the Nuclear Dampner has to be penetrated on a roll of an 8+

Oddly enough, that +1 computer model size makes a BIG difference overall.

In any event, that's after the first round of combat against the Dominator. In return, the Dominator's attacks are:

Type L spinal mount against a 600 dton hull:

2 (attack required) + 6 (target agility) +1 (Target size) = 9+ to hit: This means that roughly only 1 attack per 4 attempts will ever hit.

When it hits, it is going to be hitting a target that is (with 9 levels of armor) functionally equivalent to a size 6+4 or size 10 hull. 10 Critical Hits will be delivered in addition to one surface hit and one radiation hit. When rolling on the damage table, it will be rolling 2d6+9, for a range between 11 to 21 (all rolls will inflict some damage). Only rolls of 2 thru 5 and 9 thru 11 will affect the 600 dton defense boat (all other results do not apply and are wasted).

Factor 9 missile attack versus Size 6 hull, agility 6 target:
2 (to hit) + 6 + 1 (size modifier) or a 9+ to hit. With a 27% chance of hitting, 1 will generally hit per turn.

To penetrate size 5 sandcasters, I need to roll a 1+, which is automatic on 2d6.

Where this to be a nuclear attack, it would attack once on the surface table and once on the radiation table, for a modified roll on the damage tables of 11-21 (all inflicting damage).

Net analysis?

At long range, we can expect a total of 13 hits with missiles, and 7 hits with lasers. At short range, the results mirror long range except we can expect 13 laser hits and 7 missile hits. Either way? The Dominator's defenses are sufficiently high against the weak attacks, that most attacks will be defeated. The really LUCKY hits such as an unexpected number of 12's rolled to hit with lasers at long range, or a higher than average number of 11's and 12's hitting with missile strikes only reduce the built in redundancy of the Dominator's sandcaster defense system. Can a Dominator be taken out by 80 600 dton hulls? It is possible (unlike what the Defender class 400 dton hulls can accomplish).

 

[Hal]

By the by? I whipped up a quick SDB based upon Gray Lensman's suggestions, and optimized the craft (no expense spared). This is what it looks like. As ever, if anyone wants the HGS file for any of the ships that I discuss, merely email me at hal ATT roadrunner dott com and I'll send the file(s) as an attachment in response.

Ship: SB-113498
Class: Gray Lensman
Type: System Defense
Architect: Hal (inspired by Gray Lensman)
Tech Level: 12

USP
SB-61069F2-C50000-40003-0 MCr 945.132 600 Tons
Bat Bear:
1 factor 3 Missile
1 factor 4 laser
1 factor 5 sandcaster

Crew: 14


Cargo: 25.000 Fuel: 81.000 EP: 54.000 Agility: 6
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 9.451 Cost in Quantity: MCr 756.106


Detailed Description

HULL
600.000 tons standard, 8,400.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Navigator, 8 Engineers, Medic, 3 Gunners (note: this uses the Book two crewing rules instead of the High Guard crewing rules)

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-9, 54.000 EP, Agility 6

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/6fib Computer

HARDPOINTS
6 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
2 Triple Missile Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-3), 2 Triple Beam Laser Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-4)

DEFENCES
2 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-5), Armoured Hull (Factor-12)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
81.000 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance, plus 27.000 tons of additional fuel)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
7.0 Staterooms, 25.000 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 954.583 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 9.451), MCr 756.106 in Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
99 Weeks Singly, 79 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
SB-41069E2-900000-40003

 

[Gray Lensman]

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By the by? I whipped up a quick SDB based upon Gray Lensman's suggestions, and optimized the craft (no expense spared). This is what it looks like. As ever, if anyone wants the HGS file for any of the ships that I discuss, merely email me at hal ATT roadrunner dott com and I'll send the file(s) as an attachment in response.

Ship: SB-113498
Class: Gray Lensman
Type: System Defense
Architect: Hal (inspired by Gray Lensman)
Tech Level: 12

USP
SB-61069F2-C50000-40003-0 MCr 945.132 600 Tons
Bat Bear:
1 factor 3 Missile
1 factor 4 laser
1 factor 5 sandcaster

Crew: 14


Cargo: 25.000 Fuel: 81.000 EP: 54.000 Agility: 6
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 9.451 Cost in Quantity: MCr 756.106

Ship: SDB 600
Class: Chulak
Type: System Defense Boat
Architect: Gray Lensman
Tech Level: 12
USP
SB-61068F2-950000-40003-0 MCr 887.632 600 Tons
Bat Bear 1 1 1 Crew: 14
Bat 1 1 1 TL: 12
Cargo: 70.000 Fuel: 48.000 EP: 48.000 Agility: 6
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/6fib Computer
Architects Fee: MCr 8.876 Cost in Quantity: MCr 710.106


I didn't create this one just for that. It's an old design.
Only had Armor 9 and I always include back up computers on my combat designs.
Edit: I also never do Double Occupancy on System Defense Assets (just seems a little cruel to the crews I have doing a six month stint in a gas giant atmosphere):devil:

 

[Swiftbrook]

I wonder ....

Hijacking an idea from another thread ... what if non-starships, like SDBs, were allowed one hardpoint per 75t instead of 100t ? Or even one hardpoint per 50t. My justifications, punching more and more holes in a jump grid make it harder and harder to get it to work so jump capable ships can only have one hard point per 100t. But you don't have a jump grid on an SDB, or a battle rider, so you have more surface area for hardpoints, hence one hardpoint per 50t or 75t.

Also, the "it has more space for a larger power plant" doesn't hold a lot of water when the 50% of the weapons are missles. The Dragon doesn't even have any high energy weapons, just two laser turrets. The original discussion of an SDB can handle twice the tonage of a jump ship might work a litte better with a better designed SDB.

-Swiftbrook

 

[RandyT0001]

They're not 600 or 400 ton boats but I (quickly) designed these system defense missile boats for consideration:
Ship: Flash
Class: 1950tonMissileBoatTL12
Type: 1950tonMissileBoat
Architect: TylersTools
Tech Level: 12
USP
MB-A6067F2-C80000-30009-0 MCr 2,495.506 1.95 KTons
Bat Bear 1 2 1 Crew: 49
Bat 1 2 1 TL: 12
Cargo: 0.000 Fuel: 277.000 EP: 136.500 Agility: 6 Marines: 9
Craft: 2 x 30T Armed Ship's Boat
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops
Architects Fee: MCr 24.615 Cost in Quantity: MCr 2,003.205

Detailed Description
HULL
1,950.000 tons standard, 27,300.000 cubic meters, Flattened Sphere Configuration
CREW
11 Officers, 29 Ratings, 9 Marines
ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-7, 136.500 EP, Agility 6
AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/6fib Computer
HARDPOINTS
1 100-ton bay, 9 Hardpoints
ARMAMENT
1 100-ton Missile Bay (Factor-9), 2 Triple Beam Laser Turrets organised into 2
Batteries (Factor-3)
DEFENCES
7 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-8), Armoured Hull
(Factor-12)
CRAFT
2 30.000 ton Armed Ship's Boats (Crew of 2, Cost of MCr 17.000)
FUEL
277.000 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 56 days endurance, plus 4.000 tons of
additional fuel)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant
MISCELLANEOUS
27.5 Staterooms, 0.000 Ton Cargo
USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
1 Missile Magazine (50.000 tons, Crew 0, Cost MCr 0.000), 1 Sandcaster Magazine
(25.000 tons, Crew 0, Cost MCr 0.000)
COST
MCr 2,486.121 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 24.615), MCr 1,969.205 in
Quantity, plus MCr 34.000 of Carried Craft
CONSTRUCTION TIME
132 Weeks Singly, 105 Weeks in Quantity
COMMENTS
Four extra crewmen for reloading missles and sand-canisters from magazines.
Marines and armed ship's boats for mercantile/customs inspections and additional firesupport.

 

[Hal]

They're not 600 or 400 ton boats but I (quickly) designed these system defense missile boats for consideration:
Ship: Flash
Class: 1950tonMissileBoatTL12
Type: 1950tonMissileBoat
Architect: TylersTools
Tech Level: 12
USP
MB-A6067F2-C80000-30009-0 MCr 2,495.506 1.95 KTons

Try out the Flash against a Dominator using two separate critera to see how the Flash and the Dominator stack up against each other.

First - do the 2x attacking tonnage against 1x defending tonnage contest and see how it fares.

Second - do a strict budget to budget comparison, Ie, both attackers and defenders utilze the same budget and see how well the two fleets do against each other.

 

[Hal]

I wonder ....

Hijacking an idea from another thread ... what if non-starships, like SDBs, were allowed one hardpoint per 75t instead of 100t ? Or even one hardpoint per 50t. My justifications, punching more and more holes in a jump grid make it harder and harder to get it to work so jump capable ships can only have one hard point per 100t. But you don't have a jump grid on an SDB, or a battle rider, so you have more surface area for hardpoints, hence one hardpoint per 50t or 75t.

Also, the "it has more space for a larger power plant" doesn't hold a lot of water when the 50% of the weapons are missles. The Dragon doesn't even have any high energy weapons, just two laser turrets. The original discussion of an SDB can handle twice the tonage of a jump ship might work a litte better with a better designed SDB.

-Swiftbrook

I suspect that the use of atypical houserules renders any discussion of rules compliant ships a moot point However, nothing says you can't test the idea out and see how well it works. I've always thought it was passing odd, that a single fighter couldn't carry externally mounted missiles on wing like pylons, and get an extra salvo of missiles on target that way.