RandyT0001
SOC-13
Hal how am I supposed to pit the Flash defenses ( 2x tonnage and equal cost scenarios) against your ship? Did you do you previous battles (vs 400 ton SDB's) by hand?
Traders and Gunboats Defender Class SDB
- Thread starter Hal
- Start date
Good catch, the 600 dton SDB doesn't need a power 9 plant, but can maintain an Agility 6 stance with a powerplant 8. As for the double occupancy issue for 6 month durations on station - I thought someone else had chimed in on these forums, or perhaps the traveller mailing list, that modern submarine space allocations are so stringent, that a 1/2 stateroom in Traveller is a luxury in comparison? Either way, once standards are adopted, they apply equally in your traveller universe
In any event, those upgraded SDB of 600 dtons are going to be a pain in that they can use their numbers to their advantage to some degree. A purely missile armed 600 dton craft can go as high as a factor 5 missile attack, which increases its odds of hitting by 1, as well as its penetration of defenses by 2 - over that of a comparable 400 dton hull with a missile attack factor of 3. I wonder how 80 purely missile armed defenders might fare against a missile attack factor of 5? Hmmmm.
Base 4 + 6 -1 = 9+
80 x .27778 = 22 hits.
Hmmm. I'd hate to have to see the Dominator go up against 22 missile hits in a single combat round. 22-8 (repulsors) = 14. 24-14 = 10. That means that I could double up on 10 of those 14 missiles, and 4 of them would only have to penetrate a factor 9 missile defense once. Rolls to penetrate a factor 9 sandcaster is 9+! Definitely more dicy for the Dominator class ship.
Actually, I started to do just that, roll all the "to hit" rolls by hand. That was over 250 die rolls for the Defense team for turn one at long range. Then I hit upon a different method...
Use Excel to make the rolls for me.
In order to get Excel to make a random die roll in a cell that simulates 2d6, you need to enter into the cell, the following:
=int(rand()*6+1)+int(rand()*6+1)
It will generate a 2d6 roll for you.
Cut and paste this into each cell for 125 shots for lasers, and 125 shots for missiles (in the sample battle between the SDB's versus the Dominators). Now you've got your computer doing the hard work for you - rolling the to hit die rolls on 2d6. But, you want to make this even snazzier?
Excel (office 97 version), allows you to get a little more creative. You can set it up so that the excel spreadsheet can make the die rolls for you, and tally up how many were hits, and how many were misses of the number of shots you wish to do...
How?
=if(int(rand()*6+1)+int(rand()*6+1>targetnumber-1,1,0)
Now, what that does above, is you need to have a cell where you've listed the target number required to have an attack roll be successful. For example, if you made it so that Cell A1 contained the words "Missile Target Number" and B1 contain the actual value of 11+, then your cells to roll hits would contain the following info:
=if(int(rand()*6+1)+int(rand()*6+1>$B$1-1,1,0)
So, if you placed that formula by cutting and pasting, into say, 125 cells, and then hit the key F9 (to refresh). It will fill in each cell with either 0's (for random rolls that were less than or equal to the target number -1, or fill the cell in with 1's every time the random roll was equal to or greater than the target number.
It is quick little shortcuts like that which let you make all the rolls quickly instead of tiring out your hand.
Alternatively? Just get a random number generator to print as many die rolls as you may need. As you use a die roll, cross it off after having printed it. Either way, unless you wish to make all the die rolls by hand, this is how I'd do it
If you want the spreadsheet (I didn't save it from when I used it last, but I can make one up for you quickly enough!), let me know by sending me an email or a private message with your email addy, and I'll send it to you.
RandyT0001
SOC-13
Well after taking a closer look at the Dominator I don't think 13 (tonnage) or 27 (cost) of my Flash ships would do very well after all.
Hmmmmm........
Now I'm thinking about a new 1000 dton yacht.
Hmmmmm........
Now I'm thinking about a new 1000 dton yacht.
I suspect that the use of atypical houserules renders any discussion of rules compliant ships a moot point
One of my points is that the only advantage of a "boat" over a "ship" is the cost savings of not having a jump drive. Everything you can put into a "ship" you can fit into a much smaller and cheaper "boat" -- except weapondry. I guess I see that as a flaw in all the starship design rules.
Think of WWII PT boats. They were small, fast, and carried 4 full size torpedos. Now you can't send them from Hawaii to Japan on a raid, but they were a boat, not a ship.
Now it would be great if we could come up with a reasonable house rule for the number of hardpoints on a boat vs. a ship. Then the Dragon could carry an extra punch and your fighter could carry external missiles too. But that's another tread ....
-Swiftbrook
For what it is worth, there is one thing I think a lot of people need to keep in mind when it comes to combat in High Guard.
Once the total number of ships present can overwhelm a single ship's defenses, then the single ship's of a given class will begin to die out.
For example? Four Dominator class ships against 250 Defender class ships, will result in 250 missile attacks against 1 Defender class ship. Generally speaking, statistically speaking, we're looking at roughly 20 hits per turn.
Now all that built in redundancy the Dominator class hull enjoys against missiles is being put to the test!
24 sandcaster batteries against 12 incoming missiles allows for 2 sandcasters to be allocated to each missile, plus 1 repulsor system for 8 missile each. But what happens when an atypical combat round results in not 20 hits, but 30 hits?
Now, we're looking at 8 repulsors on 8 missiles, and a remaining 24 missiles each facing a penetration roll against 1 sandcaster each.
A "hot roller" might be able to swing the battle that way
But...
And here's the fun part of the mental exercise...
What if there had been not 125 Missile boats against 1 Dominator class ship, but 500 missile boats against 4 Dominator class ships?
All of the SDB's concentrate on a single Dominator class craft, and Badda Boom, Badda Bing - the point defense systems of the Dominator are overwhelmed. 500 missile attacks at 11+ to hit, will inflict on average, some 41 hits. That Dominator is going to go DOWN and quickly. With only 8 repulsors and 24 sandcasters, we can only handle up to 32 missile hits. That will be 9 hits that get through (assuming convention missiles). Once that begins to happen, the pristine Dominator begins to fail and fail quickly.
Balance this fact with the fact that the Dominator on average, will only inflict a kill on one SDB per turn with its L partical accelerators, and perhaps 1 SDB with its missile bays. Call it 2 SDB's per turn versus 1 Dominator class ship per turn. Hardly a fair trade at this point in time
Oh, by the way? I've saved my "Combat roller" in excel 2003. If you would like a copy of it, email me and let me know. What it does is it will roll up to 500 batteries at a time for missile hits, and for 500 batteries of laser hits. It only tallies those which equal to or exceed the target number you set for each weapon category. From there, you roll the "to penetrate" rolls by hand on 2d6, and you roll the surface damage and radiation damage by hand using the combat tables in High Guard.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Is that a suggestion? As in an alternate rule idea?
The only (CT) fixed mount rule I'm aware of is the one in the Solomani Aliens book. It requires 1 hardpoint with a maximum of 1 fixed hardpoint per computer model number, no turret weight/space or cost, requires the Pilot to make the to hit roll at -2 (no gunner needed) and only allows 2 weapons (missile, sand, laser) instead of 3. The rule actually reduces the total firepower available and it's effectiveness, as a trade off for cost, space and crew. An advantage for a merchant but not a combat craft.
It is not exactly clear who pulls the trigger other than "a Gunner on the bridge", so although the Pilot is the logical choice (as per small craft, which technically use fixed mounts anyway), I have been known to let the Navigator do it if he/she is a better shot or has nothing else to do that turn. It is not a bad pastime for an otherwise-unassigned Owner Aboard to engage in either -- since it is that person's money that is being dumped overboard at a prodigious rate anyway.
It comes in handy on merchants especially when you can replace one or more Gunners with a Loader. The Loader can run around restocking up to three dual fixed mounts (typically sand and missile) during combat, while one person on the bridge is launching all the ordinance. Not a bad task to assign a Medic or Steward if they're otherwise idle... and a pair of dual sandcaster mounts are as good as a pair of triple sandcaster turrets in most non-HG2 situations, while the ability to keep them continually restocked may well be worth the modest reduction in firepower. Missiles, OTOH, may be another story...
Gray Lensman
SOC-13
80 Missile Armed Chulaks vs Dominator
At Least I think I did this right
80 factor 5 nuclear missile attacks @ 9+ to hit
(to hit 4 + 6 agility = 10 - 1 for target size = 9)
*****computers both being level six cancel out*****
to pen against factor 8 repulsors (8 each) = 18
no DMs
to pen against factor 9 sandcasters (24 each) = 9
no DMs
to Pen against factor 1 nuclear damper (1 each) = 6
no DMS
1st round 25 batteries hit
- 8 for repuslor stopped (18+ to pen) = 17
7 get double rolls against sandcasters
okay 1st roll no pen
leaves 10 to pen single rolls against sandcasters
2 penentrate
2 to pen against nuke damp @ 6+ = 2 (success)
2 Damage on surface explosion table = 1 Critical(Power Plant Disabled)
1 Manuever -2
2 Damage on Radiation table = 1 Computer -3 Ignored because Comp is
6fib
1 Computer -2 Ignored because Comp is
6fib
Power Plant Disabled =agility 0 = model 6 comps have no power = repulsors have no power = nuc damper as no power = no manuever/no jump no nothing.
Manuever-2 Cannot withdraw successfully
1st Round Dominator has the spinal mount and 5 bearing factor nine missile bays which means at most (and Most Likely Will) it can take out 6 Chulak Missile Boats in 1st round. We will gladly give up those 6 ships
For second round Dominator is Comp 0 agility 0 and as no nuke damp or
repulsor bays
74 factor 5 missile shots against 24 bearing sandcasters
to hit 4 - 0 agility -1 for target size =3
(should my computer lower this to 0? I am unclear on this, hehe, said I was not a big battles guy)
I will just roll it at three.
73 out of 74 hit (YEAH!)
24 to pen against sandcasters = 7 Penetrate + 49 that have nothing to
pen against = 56 rolls on both Surface and Radiation Tables
Surface Table(56) Radiation Table(56) Interior Table(16)
1 Critical 2 Critical 5 Critical
16 Interior Explosions 21 Crew -1 1 Computer-2
8 Manuever-2 5 Computer-4 3 Screens-3
12 Manuever-1 11 Computer-3 4 Jump-2
6 Weapon-3 14 Computer-2 3 Power Plant-2
3 Weapon-2 3 Weapon-4
6 Fuel-3
4 Fuel-2
Critical Table(6)
1 Power Plant Disabled
1 Jump Drive Disabled
3 One Screen Disabled
2 Computer Destroyed
1 Ship Vaporized
All rolls were made using Masconi's High Guard Dice Roller v1.01
As the remaining 74 Chulak Missile Boats head to Base for refit and the
big celebration a slowly expanding cloud of debris, air, fuel and
radiation is the only thing remaining in the battle area:rofl:.
Will this hold the formatting if I use MS Word?
At Least I think I did this right
80 factor 5 nuclear missile attacks @ 9+ to hit
(to hit 4 + 6 agility = 10 - 1 for target size = 9)
*****computers both being level six cancel out*****
to pen against factor 8 repulsors (8 each) = 18
no DMs
to pen against factor 9 sandcasters (24 each) = 9
no DMs
to Pen against factor 1 nuclear damper (1 each) = 6
no DMS
1st round 25 batteries hit
- 8 for repuslor stopped (18+ to pen) = 17
7 get double rolls against sandcasters
okay 1st roll no pen
leaves 10 to pen single rolls against sandcasters
2 penentrate
2 to pen against nuke damp @ 6+ = 2 (success)
2 Damage on surface explosion table = 1 Critical(Power Plant Disabled)
1 Manuever -2
2 Damage on Radiation table = 1 Computer -3 Ignored because Comp is
6fib
1 Computer -2 Ignored because Comp is
6fib
Power Plant Disabled =agility 0 = model 6 comps have no power = repulsors have no power = nuc damper as no power = no manuever/no jump no nothing.
Manuever-2 Cannot withdraw successfully
1st Round Dominator has the spinal mount and 5 bearing factor nine missile bays which means at most (and Most Likely Will) it can take out 6 Chulak Missile Boats in 1st round. We will gladly give up those 6 ships
For second round Dominator is Comp 0 agility 0 and as no nuke damp or
repulsor bays
74 factor 5 missile shots against 24 bearing sandcasters
to hit 4 - 0 agility -1 for target size =3
(should my computer lower this to 0? I am unclear on this, hehe, said I was not a big battles guy)
I will just roll it at three.
73 out of 74 hit (YEAH!)
24 to pen against sandcasters = 7 Penetrate + 49 that have nothing to
pen against = 56 rolls on both Surface and Radiation Tables
Surface Table(56) Radiation Table(56) Interior Table(16)
1 Critical 2 Critical 5 Critical
16 Interior Explosions 21 Crew -1 1 Computer-2
8 Manuever-2 5 Computer-4 3 Screens-3
12 Manuever-1 11 Computer-3 4 Jump-2
6 Weapon-3 14 Computer-2 3 Power Plant-2
3 Weapon-2 3 Weapon-4
6 Fuel-3
4 Fuel-2
Critical Table(6)
1 Power Plant Disabled
1 Jump Drive Disabled
3 One Screen Disabled
2 Computer Destroyed
1 Ship Vaporized
All rolls were made using Masconi's High Guard Dice Roller v1.01
As the remaining 74 Chulak Missile Boats head to Base for refit and the
big celebration a slowly expanding cloud of debris, air, fuel and
radiation is the only thing remaining in the battle area:rofl:.
Will this hold the formatting if I use MS Word?
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Gray Lensman
SOC-13
Double tonnage test
I later ran this with 40 Chulaks vs 1 Dominator and did absolutely no damage the the Dominator while losing all forty Chulaks:rofl:
So the "lucky" hit of disabling the Dominator's power plant made all the difference. So superiority of numbers does change things more batteries, greater chance of getting one through.
Been fun playing with too!
I later ran this with 40 Chulaks vs 1 Dominator and did absolutely no damage the the Dominator while losing all forty Chulaks:rofl:
So the "lucky" hit of disabling the Dominator's power plant made all the difference. So superiority of numbers does change things more batteries, greater chance of getting one through.
Been fun playing with too!
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Reminds me of a few D&D games. High Level character (let's say a single 12th level Paladin with all the magic kit he can carry and then some) is out for a walk in the woods minding his own business when suddenly he hears a snickering echoing around him from the darkness. Oh no! He is surround by hundreds of evil woodland denizens (let's say 200 Gnolls with their simple weapons of mayhem) bent on having their way with him. Is our Paladin doomed?! Certainly looks that way. I mean how could he possibly prevail...
* to be fair, in one of those games another character died when he slipped and fell in a dirty puddle, not from the fall, and no it wasn't a puddle of dirty acid or poison, just teeming with a nasty virus that gave him the sniffles of death, in a couple minuteso: ahh, those were the days :rofl:
...maybe the Dominator could succumb to a virus too
Forgive the slight threadjack (it's sort of relevant), but Dan's D&D example might work in 'real life' if you had say, 50 Panzer IIs up against a single M1A1 Abrams. I don't believe the Panzers shells have enough penetration to scratch the paint on the Abrams even with a point blank, rear armour shot. The only limitation on the Abrams brewing up the whole lot of Panzers is its ammo load. Heck It wouldn't surprise me if the M1s machine gun could wreck a Panzer II, so it's probably not just the main gun which will be dishing out the punishment.
So I guess it is possible for a ship to be 'invincible' regardless of the numbers of other ships thrown at it, if those other ships are unable to deal out any damage regardless of what they throw at the big ship....
Reminds me of the board game 'Ogre'.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Thanks for the clarification Dave, and the outline.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Ah, right you are, I think I've so long used Pilot (and it's probably a house rule thinking about it now) that I tend to think it was that way in the rule.
I could have sworn there was a "using Piloting skill in place of Gunnery" component of it too, officially, but I guess that was also the same house ruling
Back then I took "fixed" to mean fixed. As in no independent movement at all. So the only logical way to shoot was for the pilot to jink the ship and aim the whole ship (nose or tail) at the target and fire the weapon(s).
Regards to the battle between 80 Chulaks and the Dominator. Looking at the actual numers to hit, etc - and the fact that 25 missiles hit when average probability indicates that it should be around 22, indicates that the 25 hits is within parameters
Looking at the "crit hit" on the first round of powerplant inoperative, that is definitely within parameters, as a nuke hit with a -6 DM on the surface/radiation damage table is offset by the +6 for an Attack factor 9 or less. Snake eyes is always possible, and such a hit is truly a lucky hit
Therein lies the big advantage of utilizing the best possible computer you can on your ships, as it offsets the advantages to be had with "to hit" modifiers and "to penetrate" modifiers in the battle. 80 Chulaks against 1 Dominator is NOT an exercise in "relative ineffectiveness" where attacks are concerned. However, note that in order to secure this, we're looking at specialized missile boat like craft that have nothing but missile turrets (all 6 triple turrets). In my opinion, the Chulaks are a good design
About the only way the Dominator can compete against the Chulaks is to carry 1 level of armor, making the crit hit chance impossible - but at the expense of agility 6 being reduced to agility 5, or, it has to just take the risk that such things do in fact, happen The fortunes of war being what they are, one can only take calcualted risks and hope that the worst doesn't happen.
Edit: After thought...
While I'm thinking about it, the Dominator was originally designed to handle the incoming attacks of a factor 3 missile attack. Where the Chulaks improve on the situation is that it increased the "to hit" by +2, and increased the to penetrate by +2 as well. Whereas the 400 dton hull is obviously limited in the attack factor it can have, either way, its best attack to hit will be rolls of 10+ when using a complexity 6 computer, the Chulak's better odds of hitting of 9+ change the number of average impacts from 13 hits to 22 hits (nearly double). This alone renders the Dominator's sandcaster defense less impenetrable. Couple this with the better penetration capabilities, and the Dominator's designers would conclude that against the Chulak defended system, there is a stronger need for lesser sized hulls capable of handling the Chulaks, and the Dominator would be rendered "Obsolete" by the Chulaks.
Looking at the "crit hit" on the first round of powerplant inoperative, that is definitely within parameters, as a nuke hit with a -6 DM on the surface/radiation damage table is offset by the +6 for an Attack factor 9 or less. Snake eyes is always possible, and such a hit is truly a lucky hit
Therein lies the big advantage of utilizing the best possible computer you can on your ships, as it offsets the advantages to be had with "to hit" modifiers and "to penetrate" modifiers in the battle. 80 Chulaks against 1 Dominator is NOT an exercise in "relative ineffectiveness" where attacks are concerned. However, note that in order to secure this, we're looking at specialized missile boat like craft that have nothing but missile turrets (all 6 triple turrets). In my opinion, the Chulaks are a good design
About the only way the Dominator can compete against the Chulaks is to carry 1 level of armor, making the crit hit chance impossible - but at the expense of agility 6 being reduced to agility 5, or, it has to just take the risk that such things do in fact, happen
The fortunes of war being what they are, one can only take calcualted risks and hope that the worst doesn't happen.Edit: After thought...
While I'm thinking about it, the Dominator was originally designed to handle the incoming attacks of a factor 3 missile attack. Where the Chulaks improve on the situation is that it increased the "to hit" by +2, and increased the to penetrate by +2 as well. Whereas the 400 dton hull is obviously limited in the attack factor it can have, either way, its best attack to hit will be rolls of 10+ when using a complexity 6 computer, the Chulak's better odds of hitting of 9+ change the number of average impacts from 13 hits to 22 hits (nearly double). This alone renders the Dominator's sandcaster defense less impenetrable. Couple this with the better penetration capabilities, and the Dominator's designers would conclude that against the Chulak defended system, there is a stronger need for lesser sized hulls capable of handling the Chulaks, and the Dominator would be rendered "Obsolete" by the Chulaks.
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