Transporters in Traveller

[Patron Zero]

Agreed a lot of ground was covered in the thread concerning Teleport Boarding but what I care to address concerns matter teleportation by means of a technological device-process than psionic ability.

What I'm wishing to discuss are restrictions on the general use of matter transporters aboard starships, specifically to outline which vessels can or cannot operate such devices.

Myself I see one critical issue being power consumption, just to 'warm-up' a transporter and actively send or receive persons or material objects should be a large enough demand as to require up-rated powerplants if not stand-alone generators for the task.

There should also be a need as well for an up-rated computer beyond a ship's 'standard' requirements. A safety measure might be a transporter having it's own separate computer, that might be a consideration enough to become a part of the device's own operational components.

Simply said, I'm not seeing Scout-Couriers having transporters, likely not found on ships of less than say 800 Tons, restricting use-placement to Mercenary Cruisers or Subsidized Liners.

A strike-force first establishing a 'foothold' of a stable receiving platform in a hostile environment could exclude the need for additional conventional troop delivery, as well as expedite moving wounded personnel to safe-haven aid stations or dedicated medical facilities in orbit.

High Passage travelers might enjoy the perks of direct boarding of a luxury vessel from a starport or like orbital facility, five-star hotels or resorts would offer such an amenity much to the chagrin of local 'taxi' service operators.

A few possible exceptions to displacement restrictions might be science vessels such as Lab Ships or Explorers specifically so outfitted, one extreme instance might be a yacht, either privately owned or corporate VIP where cost is no concern.

Again, all discussions-arguments about practicality of matter teleportation acknowledged and so duly noted, my concern is that availability of transporters. and their supporting technology. be uncommon enough not imbalance the game in general.

 

[whulorigan]

Customs & Starport Regulations

Just as an additional consideration:

As a practical matter, one thing that many people seem to overlook in discussions of matter transport are the ramifications to customs regulations and illegal immigration.

Such devices might require significant licensing fees for private ownership and/or operation.

 

[whulorigan]

MATTER TRANSPORT vs. TELEPORT

Also note that in T5.09, there is an important distinction:


T5.09, p.509:

MATTER TRANSPORT and TELEPORT
Matter Transport 19-20-21 is the ability to move matter from one location to another by converting it to energy, sending it across some distance, and reconverting it to matter.

Teleportation 25 is the ability to destructively scan an object in one location, transmit the information from that scan to another location, and there use it to recreate the object.

 

[rancke]

That's not my conception of teleportation. To me, teleportation is the ability to move an object from one spot to another without occupying the space in between, be it as a solid or as a signal. Without any destruction. And I've always assumed Traveller teleportation worked the same way.

So what is this form of movement called in T5?


Hans

 

[whulorigan]

Circumvention Teleportation

That's not my conception of teleportation. To me, teleportation is the ability to move an object from one spot to another without occupying the space in between, be it as a solid or as a signal. Without any destruction. And I've always assumed Traveller teleportation worked the same way.

So what is this form of movement called in T5?

I am not sure if it is specifically mentioned in T5, but historically in Traveller I believe it has been referred to as "circumvention". It used some type of advanced development of (or corollary to) Jumpspace (i.e. thru an "alternate dimension", IIRC).

 

[robject]

That's not my conception of teleportation. To me, teleportation is the ability to move an object from one spot to another without occupying the space in between, be it as a solid or as a signal. Without any destruction. And I've always assumed Traveller teleportation worked the same way.

So what is this form of movement called in T5?


Hans

That's my conception too, based on the way Traveller has portrayed it since the early days (e.g. AD03 and AD12):

(1) Transport via magic portals (AD12).
(2) Transport via magic pads (AD03).

I suppose the main argument in favor of circumvention is that portals can connect to Pocket Universes, which by definition are otherwise not reachable from The Universe, thus there is no distance energy can travel though normal space to get there: magic is required, and therefore there is no space-time tertium quid, and therefore transport is instant. (Of course any one point in that inference chain can be argued against)

However, based on T5's definitions, teleporting via machine is reduced to Star Trek, and the speed of light. I don't think that's an improvement.

 

[whulorigan]

That's my conception too, based on the way Traveller has portrayed it since the early days (e.g. AD03 and AD12):

(1) Transport via magic portals (AD12).
(2) Transport via magic pads (AD03).

I suppose the main argument in favor of circumvention is that portals can connect to Pocket Universes, which by definition are otherwise not reachable from The Universe, thus there is no distance energy can travel though normal space to get there: magic is required, and therefore there is no space-time tertium quid, and therefore transport is instant. (Of course any one point in that inference chain can be argued against)

However, based on T5's definitions, teleporting via machine is reduced to Star Trek, and the speed of light. I don't think that's an improvement.

There is no reason that both technologies might not be possible. One species might discover one technique whereas another might discover the other (or one might completely outclass the other based on TL of introduction and/or other technical constraints). Perhaps one method is superior to the other depending on a given particular situation.

Of course, for the T5 ruleset, since T5 doesn't mention circumvention, you would be on your own (based on earlier iterations of Traveller) to decide on a TL of introduction.

 

[whartung]

Simply said, I'm not seeing Scout-Couriers having transporters, likely not found on ships of less than say 800 Tons, restricting use-placement to Mercenary Cruisers or Subsidized Liners.

Simply put, you'll need to come up with some MW rating and/or minimum size for your device. You can certainly design it with some expectation of it not fitting on a Scout (because a power plant with XXX MW extra capacity simply wouldn't fit in a scout), but later on there may well be very high power power plants that do fit on a Scout, making the device practical.

That's the nature of having orthogonal components. You can't simply say "Scouts shouldn't have them", you should say they're "this" big and take "that" much power, place them where you will.

Remember, we've bolted 105mm guns to aircraft...

 

[robject]

Ah, we have several potential transportation technologies in Traveller, which develop more or less in parallel.

First comes elemental or raw matter transport at TL 19-20-21. By TL 21, there is system-wide (elemental/raw) matter transport.

Then there are three more technologies, each with plusses and minuses:

Portals. TL 24 construction, but requires a Pocket Universe. So you either have to use one some extinct culture already invented, or wait until TL 31 to create your own. Transportation is instantaneous, but there are some reasonable caveats. Max distance from a portal to the prime portal is 36 light-minutes (4.5 AU). The portals in SOTA are examples of these.

Psionic Engineering. TL 25. Psionic engineering implies mechanical teleportation (i.e. stepping disks, as well as a kind of stutterwarp drive). The psionic skill Teleport is instantaneous, and limited to world ranges. The "teleport platforms" from Twilight's Peak (TP) is a paired example of this. The reason the TP platforms are not basic raw matter transporters is because they can transport people without harming them.

Teleporters. TL 25. Teleporters are Star Trek-like, and follow the speed of light rule. Perhaps they have no range limit (but is that SAFE?)? An example of this is found in Knightfall, with the "Transporter" artifact.

 

[rancke]

SF (and fantasy) also have gates, which juxtapositions two separate points in space/time. This would be a way to cross dimensional borders and ought to be how Grandfather passes between universes.


Hans

 

[esampson]

If a power plant is strong enough to throw a 100+ dton object into jspace and transport it half a dozen light years it seems like the power plant should be strong enough to project a couple of hundred kilograms a few million meters. Obviously jspace isn't the same as direct teleportation but it seems unlikely that the power requirements of the two methods would be that radically off from one another.

 

[rancke]

If a power plant is strong enough to throw a 100+ dton object into jspace and transport it half a dozen light years it seems like the power plant should be strong enough to project a couple of hundred kilograms a few million meters. Obviously jspace isn't the same as direct teleportation but it seems unlikely that the power requirements of the two methods would be that radically off from one another.

A jump drive usess the same amount of fuel to make a 0 meter jump as to make a 1-parsec jump. The usual analogy is throwing something up in the air. If you throw it straigtht up, it comes down right next to you. If you throw it at an angle, the distance from you depends on the angle. But you throw equally hard no matter what angle you throw at.


Hans

 

[Patron Zero]

If memory serves, I believe the first mention of transporters as such was in a Paranoia Press supplement, Merchants & Merchandise, so will need to dig around for my copy to see what was said there.

Not outright dismissing a 100 Ton ship from possessing a transporter, I just feel having the components be somewhat bulky and consumptive of power would a factor to make such less common.

And there has to be range restrictions as well as modifiers that would apply to how the device operates, things like interference of signal-acquisition from different outside sources (solar-stellar radiation, intentional jamming, etc) and improved performance from enhanced receivers or station-to-station travel.

Should use of a matter transporter device unbalance Traveller as a game, no, not if like any other piece of hardware it's not allowed to be exploited or abused for reasons of just such actions. It could be a tool of convenience as well as expedience if so applied for those choosing to employ such aboard their vessels with reasonable care and cautions so observed.

I can see though some freight, and likely passengers, opting to prefer-request handling and movement by more 'conventional' means for reasons of personal choice or 'fragility', whether actual or assumed.

Not to mention cargo-handler unions and other related factions protesting the use of matter transporters, possible incurring fines and penalties on persons-parties using such in 'hands-on-only' zones. That a bit reminiscent of the dockworkers organizing protests and rallies against robot steward-stevedore at various starports ages back.

 

[whulorigan]

If memory serves, I believe the first mention of transporters as such was in a Paranoia Press supplement, Merchants & Merchandise, so will need to dig around for my copy to see what was said there.

Actually, the first mention was on the TL Chart in the CT Core Rules (I know it was listed in TTB as a TL16 innovation).

Paranoia Press: Merchants & Merchandise lists several different models spanning TL16 - TL18 (all heavily influenced by Star Trek, including 6-person, 22-person, and cargo-only versions). It also mentions how these new HeurAd Transporters were more sophisticated than earlier "Transfer Booths", in that they did not require a receiving station. IIRC, operators required both Computer and Navigation as skill prerequisites to get the "Transporter" skill.

 

[wbyrd]

I seem to remember that a scientist did the math on creating a stable means of teleportation. This was achieved by creating a wormhole between to objects with the exact same magnetic field, and entangled at the quantum level.

a wormhole was formed between the objects and then you traveled through that wormhole to arrive intact at the other end, no deconstruction needed. In theory if you knew the particulars , magnetic charge, quantum state of an object you could artificially create it's matched pair in your teleport pad, then allow the wormhole to form from one Pad/booth to another at a distance.

don't ask me how,...Dammit Jim I'm a game hack, not a Quantum engineer..... .Being able to dial up the field signature, and quantum state of the target booth/pad, would allow a wormhole to form and zip the contents of the booth/pad to be transferred intact at the target sight.Assuming the energy levels of the wormhole didn't cook them into near fusion plasma along the way.

the practical limitation to keep us from pulling off this feat was that at current Tech level you would have to blow up a star to generate the energies needed to form the wormhole....by the time we get to TL-15 or so I am sure that sort of brute force approach becomes a bit more doable.

 

[whartung]

Not outright dismissing a 100 Ton ship from possessing a transporter, I just feel having the components be somewhat bulky and consumptive of power would a factor to make such less common.

I'm simply saying that if you don't want a transporter on a 100 ton ship, then make the machine large and power hungry. But don't be surprised when someone build the smallest ship possible in order to carry one if there is value in that.

Should use of a matter transporter device unbalance Traveller as a game, no, not if like any other piece of hardware it's not allowed to be exploited or abused for reasons of just such actions.

If something can be exploited, it will be. The way to keep them from being exploited is to have practical mechanisms in place to prevent it. Mechanisms that makes sense.

A simple example, in Star Trek, they had (barring a shorted fuse, some kind of shield, or an inconvenient ion storm) almost unlimited transport capability. The story tellers chose not to abuse them because they make silly stories. But the potential was always there for abuse. There was nothing stopping the abuse but the storytellers.

Then consider the game Star Fleet Battles, a game based on Star Trek. They too had transporters. You could use the transporters to send over boarding parties, or plop mines in front of enemy ships. The primary limitation of the transporter was that you had to have a shield down to use it, and as a general guideline its better for a ship to keep their shields up than not. But enemy fire has a different story, they have a tendency to lower shields. Plus there may well be safe opportunities to lower them.

The nut, though, is do you know what you couldn't do? You couldn't beam a Photon Torpedo in to the enemies engineering section. Or place a transporter bomb in to the enemy shuttle bay. You couldn't "beam out" the fire control computers from your enemy, or steal their navigators or commanders. Why not? Because the rule makers simply said "that's a silly thing, and we're not going to even explore it as a game mechanic".

But in a game like Traveller, you need "physics" to stop these kinds of things. If you have a device that can send matter to someplace arbitrary, or retrieve it, your players are going to be running around to low level worlds and stealing artifacts, guns, explosives, women, cash and jewels without firing a shot. They'll be doing remote assassinations. Beam the assassin in to the sleeping chamber, do the deed, beam them out. Kidnapping, industrial espionage, you name it. Beam in, hack the local stock market trading system, beam out. All sort of malfeasance.

You can not rely on the morals of the players to limit the abuses possible. You can try, but, you can't really enforce it.

Now, if the transporters can only exchange with other transporters and you need, say, a "password" to use any particular transporter, then, boom, abuse goes way down.

So, the point being, you can't "rule" "don't abuse it". If you don't want it abused, you need to physically prevent it somehow. That's my point about the Scout ship. You can't just say "it doesn't belong in a Scout ship", you have to manifest the physical reasons why it wouldn't work.

 

[SanDragon]

Beam an assassin in??!

No-no-no. that leaves a body.

Beam the target OUT, and them beam them into space, re-assembly optional.

No body, no evidence of someone else being there. Nice and neat.

"CFO of Naasirka disappears!"
"Police baffled."

 

[whartung]

Beam an assassin in??!

No-no-no. that leaves a body.

Beam the target OUT, and them beam them into space, re-assembly optional.

No body, no evidence of someone else being there. Nice and neat.

"CFO of Naasirka disappears!"
"Police baffled."

Sometimes, you want to send a message.

"CFO of Naasirka found crushed by dead elephant in his pajamas. How the elephant got in to the room, much less Nassirka's pajamas, are unknown at this time."

 

[esampson]

A jump drive usess the same amount of fuel to make a 0 meter jump as to make a 1-parsec jump. The usual analogy is throwing something up in the air. If you throw it straigtht up, it comes down right next to you. If you throw it at an angle, the distance from you depends on the angle. But you throw equally hard no matter what angle you throw at.


Hans

Yes, but that same amount of fuel is 10% of the volume. 10% of the volume of a person is .0007 dtons, so if you want to try and use the argument that the fuel requirements need to be equivalent it really isn't that great.

Of course no one wants to be stuck in jspace for a week outside of a ship so the processes won't be identical. Still, even if the process requires 3 orders of magnitude more energy for the instantaneous teleportation you are only looking at about 1 dton.

All of which is really beside the point. The question wasn't whether it would be efficient to teleport a person. It doesn't address the tonnage of the equipment required in the transporter system or the tech level or anything else. The question was whether the power plant could generate enough energy. Since a scout ship generates 27,000x the energy required to project a person over 3 light years I think we can safely say that energy generation isn't the problem.

 

[robject]

All of which is really beside the point. [...] The question was whether the power plant could generate enough energy [to power a teleportation device].

Completely up in the air. But no, I don't think power is a necessary obstacle.