Traveller 5 - With an update can it eclipse CT?
- Thread starter Spaceresearcher
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Spaceresearcher
SOC-12
First of all, T5 is brand new. Second of all, there are a lot of Traveller players out there. Thirdly, while not all Travellers will be using T5 rules, there are a lot that will want to use the new rules.
So I guess I have to ask the obvious question. "What's so hard about including T5 rules full stop?" Honestly, if you get in and read the rules, a lot of the material is similar to other editions and there's just lot's of expanded aspects to the game(be they loved or hated). Frankly I'm getting a little sick and tired of people poo hooing something just because it's not like there favourite rules set or made up rules set. I'd love there to be a standard beyond CT, because there's been a lot of great material since CT.
One of the flaws for me with CT, is that there's not nearly enough maps and support material for the adventures if you take just the classic adventures etc the overall ref support quality is a bit low when compared to(I hate to say it), AD&D material of the same time. This puts the hard yards on the referee which to me is a negative as getting 3 - 5 people together for an RPG these days is hard enough without the main organiser(normally the ref), giving a game of Traveller a back seat because it just looks like too much effort.
Well it's now 2013 and a lot has happened since 1977, T5 is really just a small inkling on just how much. When I received my copy of T5 I was really blown away with the level of detail and the overall expansion to the game. There was simply something for everyone in this treasure trove I thought.
Essentially if no one supports T5, it's going to go the way of T4, which would be a shame as Traveller will stand to slip back into other companies getting licensing and doing Traveller the way they want etc. Many people love CT, to me, T5 is simply CT with a lot more material added.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Before third parties can support it T5 need to be edited down to the core rules that the writer has to follow and it has to be updated with errata to correct the mistakes - no third party writer is going to go through an errata list as large as what is developing for T5.
That means FFE needs to do stuff first.
Including any T5 material in a third party supplement would be a mistake at this point since revisions and errata to fix T5 will make a mess of the supplement.
That means FFE needs to do stuff first.
Including any T5 material in a third party supplement would be a mistake at this point since revisions and errata to fix T5 will make a mess of the supplement.
Well said. I really disliked CT but when MT came along loved it for the detail, the gritty combat that sort of thing. T5 to my mind is a blending of MT and CT its a little simpler in places (the Makers) but on the whole a better rounded system for me. Hence why I'm dropping MT and just using it for reference material these days and adopting T5 as my main Traveller ruleset.
I would also love to see more supplements and adventures in the vein of the old MT ones, since they had loads of Ref material and back-up data ready for expansion beyond the original written adventure.
It should be noted as well, that one of my players was an avid CT fan and thought that nothing would ever better it for the Traveller Universe, but he has changed that and now considers T5 to be the worthy successor.
Yes i admit there are some issues but if you have played any of the previous incarnations of Traveller you should be able to figure out what was supposed to be going on they really aren't that much different. In fact I'm using the High Guard rules for Spinal weapons (Main Weapons) for T5 till they produce the official ones.
I would also love to see more supplements and adventures in the vein of the old MT ones, since they had loads of Ref material and back-up data ready for expansion beyond the original written adventure.
It should be noted as well, that one of my players was an avid CT fan and thought that nothing would ever better it for the Traveller Universe, but he has changed that and now considers T5 to be the worthy successor.
Yes i admit there are some issues but if you have played any of the previous incarnations of Traveller you should be able to figure out what was supposed to be going on they really aren't that much different. In fact I'm using the High Guard rules for Spinal weapons (Main Weapons) for T5 till they produce the official ones.
Spaceresearcher
SOC-12
I second that Licheking, MT had some of the finest Traveller products ever published, in particular the DGP books(Starship Operators Manual and the Aliens books for starters).
Avenger Enterprises
SOC-11
In order to include T5 rules in a product you need to:
1. Get a license. This can be more difficult than you might imagine.
2. Learn the rules to a standard where you can publish 'official' material using them correctly.. That means considerable investment in time eg gaming with the T5 rules because that's the only way to make sure you really understand them.
1. Get a license. This can be more difficult than you might imagine.
2. Learn the rules to a standard where you can publish 'official' material using them correctly.. That means considerable investment in time eg gaming with the T5 rules because that's the only way to make sure you really understand them.
Are T5 players posting any T5 adventures or add-ons on their sites? One would think that those that swear by the T5 rules would be gung ho about getting such things out there to promote T5 to new players and form a group to play.
Are there active T5 gaming groups playing sessions right now that are enjoying the hell out of the game enough to create a demand for and be purchasers of T5 adventures and add-ons?
Are there active T5 gaming groups playing sessions right now that are enjoying the hell out of the game enough to create a demand for and be purchasers of T5 adventures and add-ons?
Spaceresearcher
SOC-12
Well on those two points
1. Understand, but it might be a great step for the future.
2. So the problem on 'having' to play Traveller with the awesome new T5 rules is? Gosh, I feel your pain in having to have fun and excitement playing one of the greatest Sci-Fi RPG games ever made, but someones gotta do it right?
Avenger Enterprises
SOC-11
Sarcasm like that doesn't really deserve an answer, but here's what I mean.
Setting up gaming situations to test out the rules you want to test can be quite a pain at times. As is swapping from the set of rules you like to an unfamilar one, and dragging players along with you. There may be those who don't find T5 quite as awesome as you do, and persuading them to swap rules sets mid campaign might be a bit of an undertaking.
The sheer amount of T5 that there is makes fun and excitement possibly difficult to obtain, due to the need to stop and look up unfamilar rules a lot. There's quite a big learning curve there, and doing that learning really isn't necessary for a lot of players - they already have a rules set they're happy with.
So, I can be having fun and excitement playing Traveller with the rules I'm comfortable with and my players like, or I can be working at learning a new rules set. One of those is easy and fun, and the other requires a lot of invested time before fun can happen.
Getting a license, well, that's only a 'great step' if it is financially viable. That's what I was trying to find out.
Setting up gaming situations to test out the rules you want to test can be quite a pain at times. As is swapping from the set of rules you like to an unfamilar one, and dragging players along with you. There may be those who don't find T5 quite as awesome as you do, and persuading them to swap rules sets mid campaign might be a bit of an undertaking.
The sheer amount of T5 that there is makes fun and excitement possibly difficult to obtain, due to the need to stop and look up unfamilar rules a lot. There's quite a big learning curve there, and doing that learning really isn't necessary for a lot of players - they already have a rules set they're happy with.
So, I can be having fun and excitement playing Traveller with the rules I'm comfortable with and my players like, or I can be working at learning a new rules set. One of those is easy and fun, and the other requires a lot of invested time before fun can happen.
Getting a license, well, that's only a 'great step' if it is financially viable. That's what I was trying to find out.
daltoncalford
SOC-12
T5 in it's current format, will die a slow and painful death. Full stop.
It is not what I want, but, the truth is, that is what will happen.
FLGS will not carry it - only special order, and the number of FLGS is dwindling.
The book is too big, too expensive and it has alot of existing competitors such as MGT that has more support and a wide variety of games using the same system.
So, only the existing traveller players will buy it - and we are getting old. Families, work, other hobbies, all take away from our gaming.
New players want flash, style, pizazz. Traveller is a book with a whole section on probability ratios.
If avenger or some other company wanted to make money and turn T5 into a new standard, it can do so simply and quickly.
1.) go back to the booklet - take the current rules, grab each chapter and put it into a 64 page booklet. This was CT's greatest strength. Small, portable, easy to use and hand out. Easy to read. Not intimidating to new players.
2.) get rid of the C1, C2 references and use STR etc. When you have a race that uses a different attribute, talk about it then. KISS. it is an extension to the MOAR (map only as required) concept - don't talk about millions of rules variations when someone is just trying to learn how to role-play.
3.) Do up equipment guides that are more than just lists of stats. Make equipment, ship, weapon and universe feel like there is a marketing company behind it. This is material that the players are going to be looking through and you want them to actually picture themselves wanting every item listed. This presentation with the small to task books, will go along way in aiding the referee in preparing for a gaming session.
So, smaller (less intimidating and less cost for the retailer to keep a few copies on hand) easier to understand and sexier.
To hand out a 64 page 'Introduction to Traveller' booklet that is staple bound to a gaming group makes it really easy for a referee to get a game going.
To show someone a 600 page hardcover book is a quick way to make any potential player run for the hills.
This is all without addressing the biggest problems with the T5 system - the die mechanics and the skill inflation. Because of this, T5 will never have the in-game feel of CT and it will not have the same draw to new players.
It is not what I want, but, the truth is, that is what will happen.
FLGS will not carry it - only special order, and the number of FLGS is dwindling.
The book is too big, too expensive and it has alot of existing competitors such as MGT that has more support and a wide variety of games using the same system.
So, only the existing traveller players will buy it - and we are getting old. Families, work, other hobbies, all take away from our gaming.
New players want flash, style, pizazz. Traveller is a book with a whole section on probability ratios.
If avenger or some other company wanted to make money and turn T5 into a new standard, it can do so simply and quickly.
1.) go back to the booklet - take the current rules, grab each chapter and put it into a 64 page booklet. This was CT's greatest strength. Small, portable, easy to use and hand out. Easy to read. Not intimidating to new players.
2.) get rid of the C1, C2 references and use STR etc. When you have a race that uses a different attribute, talk about it then. KISS. it is an extension to the MOAR (map only as required) concept - don't talk about millions of rules variations when someone is just trying to learn how to role-play.
3.) Do up equipment guides that are more than just lists of stats. Make equipment, ship, weapon and universe feel like there is a marketing company behind it. This is material that the players are going to be looking through and you want them to actually picture themselves wanting every item listed. This presentation with the small to task books, will go along way in aiding the referee in preparing for a gaming session.
So, smaller (less intimidating and less cost for the retailer to keep a few copies on hand) easier to understand and sexier.
To hand out a 64 page 'Introduction to Traveller' booklet that is staple bound to a gaming group makes it really easy for a referee to get a game going.
To show someone a 600 page hardcover book is a quick way to make any potential player run for the hills.
This is all without addressing the biggest problems with the T5 system - the die mechanics and the skill inflation. Because of this, T5 will never have the in-game feel of CT and it will not have the same draw to new players.
Avenger Enterprises
SOC-11
Points 1-3 are all good ones. Especially point 3, which we're already doing.
Take a look at the Kitbag series to see what I mean.
Take a look at the Kitbag series to see what I mean.
Based on what marketing data?
Based on ~15 out of 17 "reviews" from people who have purchased T5 that I've read, PAIN is operative word here. :rofl:
Some info on Kitbags available in the Kitbag topic over HERE.
esampson
SOC-13
Not sure why people find the system so painful. It seems to be extremely similar to the UTP system from Megatraveller. You get a target and you want to roll under it on X dice. Modifiers increase and decrease the amount of dice you roll in most cases.
It could use some cleanup and organizing along with some more pre-generated equipment (there are some inconsistencies where difficulty affects the target rather than the number of dice and there are details that are either out of date or missing) but the overall systems hardly seems what I would call 'painful'.
I think the core rule's greatest sin is simply in presentation (although lack of index is a close second).
English may not be his/her first language (or second). Could be a Google translate fail somewhere? Or simply just posted to the wrong forum entirely.
Read reviews. I'm sure some idea of why will come to you...
esampson
SOC-13
Well.... having searched through quite a few reviews it seems to be that the major complaint is that the book is painful. There are typos, the organization needs improvement, and there's a lot of systems (so many that it is overwhelming if you think that you have to use every single system such as the genetics system when you are first creating your character).
That's not the same thing as saying the system is painful. Saying the system is painful would be things like 'combat is extremely difficult because you have to use the quadratic formula' or 'character creation requires over 70 different charts'.
Now I'm not saying the system is perfect. There certainly are some inconsistencies such as the fact that in most cases more difficult tasks mean you roll more dice but in a few cases it means the target gets lower. There's also things such as the fact that starship energy weapons all do damage purely based on their mounts, so a beam laser does the same damage as a pulse laser does the same damage as a fusion weapon does the same damage as a meson cannon (assuming all the weapons have identical mounts).
But is T5 on par with CT back when it was the 3 LLBs (i.e. when CT was very first released)? I think so. We had rules errors back then, starship design that needed a lot more fleshing out, no stats for aliens, and a host of other conditions that this current book has.
I'm I happy about that? No, not really, but I'm not willing to throw my hands up in the air and declare T5 dead on arrival.
You ain't been reading same reviews I have, then. About half dislike the system. Most dislike the book itself.
Mind you, TNE and T4 had about the same general approval rate of the mechanics when they came out. TNE's was mostly on WWIVnet. But not the comorbid hate of the look.
Me, I like the look of the book, but not the system.
