Traveller 5 - With an update can it eclipse CT?

[David Johansen]

My list of things that would bring in new players would include a good movie, TV show, computer game, board game, or series of novels or comics. The problem is that the rpg market is vanishingly small right now. Really, what Traveller needs more than anything is a good and accessible version of D&D that brings in new blood.

Sure I'd love for Traveller to take the number one spot in the industry and cause the industry to grow. I'd laugh myself senseless watching that happen. But yeah, T5 booster though I may be T5 won't be making that happen.

 

[KDLadage]

I disagree. What Traveller needs is a good, easily accessible set of rules that can be used to introduce new people to the hobby.

Something akin to the starter box D&D released with 3.0 -- a booklet of about a dozen related adventures that a fledgling game master can run some friends through using the pre-generated characters within the box and the merchant ship deck plans included which serve as the ship our intrepid adventurers are on.

The rules book should be small -- non-threatening. No more than 32 pages.

• Introduction
• Task Resolution (nothing fancy; just the basics)
• Combat Basics (including a snipped of starship combat)

Sell these. Have information on how to get more books for this game at the end. Hell, you could even have these as a loss leader is you think it would work to the eventual gain.

Just my thought.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

Dare I say it, a Customizable Card Game (CCG), could certainly be a possibility(alright I know, I know, I've said it now, go easy on me, it's just a suggestion). Having said that an example of a CCG that failed was the Cyberpunk CCG. Looked cool and everything but alas no one played it. But then BANG, along comes a great board game called: "Android" and boom, it's mega popular a spin off series of CCG's were pumped out and the company is now rolling in the cash and fame it's achieving. Traveller certainly has some great board games (Azhanti High Lightning springs instantly to mind, also the new Power Projection(but that's more of a miniatures space combat strategy game)). However a Fantasy Flight style affair to rival the now legendary Twilight Imperium would certainly do wonders to bring in the new fans. Just about everyone I've shown Twilight Imperium too has loved it and is amazed at what a great game it is. For some reason, board games have been making a terrific come back. I think at the end of the day, people are getting tired of not having other people to interact with in there games and get sick of looking at screens all day long. This is where the board game and if shown correctly, the RPG, can beat even the most fancy multi-million dollar computer game.

In the end it's all about marketing and I think Traveller should be commended for enduring the test of time largely just by fans like us alone. (When was the last time you saw a Traveller advertisement at your local game shop?).

As a few others have mentioned, the only way to really usher in more fans, is to promote it when an opportunity arrives. I've bought a few games just by word of mouth before. When you hear a real person hyping on about something and not just a half biased reviewer in a games magazine, you know there must be some magic there. That's can be a more powerful motivation than any media style promotion because it's real and right in front of you direct from a fellow person.

T5 does have explanations if your prepared to read them, sure there may not be enough for everyone, but it does give a brief run down on the Traveller universe and then dives into the system with detail. If you ignore 100+ pages of tables, charts and diagrams etc, the actual rules are not that much different to say CT and T4 combined in a lot of ways. Don't be fooled by the size of the book, rule wise it's not that taxing, there's just lot's in there. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you don't need to know the entire book cover to cover in order to play the game, simply character generation, combat, roles and not even all the starship rules are all that are required to have some great games if you think about it. Then when your ready for more, there's a lot more there to expand the game.

In short, for me personally with literally hundreds of Traveller books from the hey day through the legacy material to now, it's no longer a simple case of read one book and that's all you need. It's just so vast. However that doesn't mean you have to have it all now and that's were there's some possible issues. For a new player, you would tackle it bit by bit and expand outwards as you go.

It's no different to Travelling around and exploring. No one covers 20 sectors in one game session(if you do I'd love to hear about your game), heck a lot of people probably don't get off one planet in single session at times.

Concentrate on enjoying the actual game and then you will not find it hard to see the stars for the galaxy(or forest for the trees if you will).

The only real difference to me between say CT and T5 is that T5 has a lot all in the one book. If you grabbed all the main books and the supplements etc for CT and stuck them all into the one book, then I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people would look at that and find it daunting and scary because it's big. (I've already met some people who found just the original republished CT daunting all in the one book(that was only what 250 pages or something like that?).

Could that be an answer, declaring. "Don't worry, it's big because Traveller is a big universe, but don't worry you don't need to read and know the entire book to play the game". So a small guide to what you need to get started, like those old free promotional mini-games that used to come out to promote a game a few years ago. What do fellow Travellers think about that idea?

Personally I think that could be a solution and a help for all those who are finding it hard to start. Something like that could promote and help players to focus on the important areas, so they don't get bogged down at the wrong sections etc before they have played a few games. Then they would eventually want to read the rest to expand there games. It may even help those who are declaring T5 a cop out and there shouldn't have to be another publication, because it would simply be a promotional publication and there's nothing wrong with that correct?

 

[Licheking]

I'm still not convinced that rules lite is the way to go, when my friends and i were getting into the hobby we were looking for full fat rules we always dismissed lite versions out of hand, although back then there was no such thing as rules lite, but any rulebook you could get in your pocket or read in an hour wasn't on our radar. If we had wanted simple we would have all stuck to the Fighting Fantasy books which had introduced us all to the idea of fantasy gaming.

My first game that i played in was Bushido, closely followed by D&D, the red box, and Tunnels and Trolls and we all thought Bushido was the better game. We started adapting it to create regular fantasy settings until Runequest came out.

 

[aramis]

I'm still not convinced that rules lite is the way to go, when my friends and i were getting into the hobby we were looking for full fat rules we always dismissed lite versions out of hand, although back then there was no such thing as rules lite, but any rulebook you could get in your pocket or read in an hour wasn't on our radar. If we had wanted simple we would have all stuck to the Fighting Fantasy books which had introduced us all to the idea of fantasy gaming.

My first game that i played in was Bushido, closely followed by D&D, the red box, and Tunnels and Trolls and we all thought Bushido was the better game. We started adapting it to create regular fantasy settings until Runequest came out.

What you wanted back then is immaterial, and probably based upon entirely different paradigms.

What the kids are playing at lunch in the high schools here is mostly white wolf and palladium, with some D&D 3.X and 4.X (but outnumbered 2:1 by Palladium or White Wolf).

I, too, was looking for "bigger-better" at that age - but my daughter (almost 14) doesn't like more detailed rules. As a player, she wants less mechanical, as if she wants detailed mechanical driven, she'll play something on the Wii or the Tablet.

I've seen the same with board games. The kids mostly think that if it won't play out in 2 hours, it's better as a videogame. SFB suffered for that - player demand led to Federation Commander, which plays faster and lighter, and has almost replaced its compatible sibling SFB. And its not 16mm hexes and 1/2" counters anymore, either, but 1.5" hexes and 1" color counters, so that using minis has no map-size issues.

 

[pennshome723]

I tell you I have gotten into space battles, table too rsin minis space fleets fighting one another. I personally collect Battle Star Galatica line of ships based off of the New Show...refer to this company that I buy many resin minis from....

http://ravenstarstudios.blogspot.com/2013/07/15-off-summer-sale-all-lines.html

There are many different models of Colonial fleet ships besides the BSG.

Next for the Cylons I like the Old Show Bay Stars with a mix of old Cylon raiders from the old show and the new show Cylon raiders.

 

[esampson]

I disagree. What Traveller needs is a good, easily accessible set of rules that can be used to introduce new people to the hobby.

Something akin to the starter box D&D released with 3.0 -- a booklet of about a dozen related adventures that a fledgling game master can run some friends through using the pre-generated characters within the box and the merchant ship deck plans included which serve as the ship our intrepid adventurers are on.

The rules book should be small -- non-threatening. No more than 32 pages.

• Introduction
• Task Resolution (nothing fancy; just the basics)
• Combat Basics (including a snipped of starship combat)

Sell these. Have information on how to get more books for this game at the end. Hell, you could even have these as a loss leader is you think it would work to the eventual gain.

Just my thought.

Given the economics of Traveller (I doubt it is making very much money) Marc probably couldn't really afford any kind of loss leader.

That said I believe Eclipse Phase has been fairly successful with their freely downloadable PDFs of their core rules. Since they are downloaded from torrents it doesn't even cost them anything in the way of bandwidth, once they are seeded.

Given that their rulebook is slimmer than T5 and that I agree, T5 needs a more streamlined version to encourage new players, I wouldn't propose just putting the T5 rules up as a free torrent and then hope people will buy the hard copy.

I wouldn't worry so much about keeping it down to 32 pages, however. One of the wonderful things about Traveller is its universe, so that certainly shouldn't be skimped. There should be a section that details the history of the Imperium, including the Third Imperium, the Rebellion, and the Virus. There should be sections providing some basic information about the Vargar, Droyne, Aslan, K'kree, Hivers, Zhodani, Solomani, and Darrians. Mention should be made of pocket empires like the Sword Worlds.

I'm not saying each of these should have a full chapter. Simply a page or two that are almost entirely color with a scattering of light rules such as the characteristic ranges for the non-human sophonts.

I would strip out all of the makers (even though I love them) and the tech staging charts and provide a short list of equipment built with them similar to what you had in the first 3 or 4 LBB's (body pistol, auto pistol, magnum, ACR, laser carbine, etc.), more fully developed stats for a couple of ships that players might be involved with early on (Scouts, Traders, etc.), possibly with a deckplan or two (I even offer the Scout deckplan I've already drawn up, gratis).

Include an interesting subsector (Querion, Regina, Jewell, and Glisten seem good choices) along with data for reading the UWPs and a healthy dose of color (don't just give the UWPs but talk about how Glisten, a subsector capital, is a system of three belts with no planets and a huge population with some of the best shipyards in the Imperium or how Esalin is a small non-aligned planet a single jump away from both the Imperium and Zhodani Consulates).

Include a small bestiary which is not simply a collection of stats (Vormor are large carnivorous cats found on X. Much like Terran tigers they have an alternating stripe pattern to camouflage themselves as they stalk their prey. Due to the sun of X's system emitting large amounts of ultraviolet, however, the plants of X use a red pigment in photosynthesis giving the vormor a bright red pelt with deep purple stripes).

Provide a stripped down CG. Remove college, trade schools, and the like. Provide only a handful of the career choices (Scouts, Army, Marines, Spacers, Merchants, Nobles, and Criminals, perhaps). That will probably require some tweaks to their charts since no one will have a major or a minor but otherwise leave most of their charts alone. Then go through and remove any skill that can't be obtained from those charts. There's no reason for the introductory rules to list skills characters can't get.

The idea should be a set of rules that are simple but complete in and of themselves with lots of color to show that there is a great deal more out there. That way it is easy (and cheap) for new players to get into, but the color should hopefully draw them further in where they will pick up the T5 Core Rulebook and supplements.

 

[esampson]

One quick addendum;

While I would design that with the intent of being a freely downloadable PDF I would still lay it out exactly like a good print book (classic Traveller black cover, table of contents, index, etc.). In theory it should be capable of being sent to the printers and turned into a hardcover (or softcover) that could be put on the shelf.

There are two reasons for this. The second (yes, second one first) is that perhaps someday in the future it will turn out there is enough demand to justify a print run (although Eclipse Phase offers their PDFs for free a lot of people shell out for the hard cover of the exact same material to support the company) and properly laying out the book will mean that people with the PDF will have the same thing as the people buying the hard copy. Books on shelves are still important because they get seen (though as I said, given the current economics of Traveller I probably wouldn't suggest running them right now).

The first reason is simply that laying out the book as though it is intended to be printed will produce a more polished product, and as this is an enticement to draw in new players that is quite important.

 

[Hesperos]

That is: If CT is so great, then why have Travellers felt the need to adopt not just 1, not 2, no 6+ and growing alternative add on rule systems? If it's so great then why must it be constantly updated in the rules department?

I may be an anomaly, but I've found myself going backward. I started with Mongoose, read through TNE and Megatraveller then settled on CT. The adoption of rules systems, at least from my POV, are simply GMs finding rulings and house rulings they happen to agree with. 68A, UGM, dice pool, 2d6 or whatever: It's whatever makes Traveller your Traveller, much like how some DMs will hack D&D incessantly.

Personally I think the answer is simple. It's just too archaic to accomodate all a Travellers needs.

Much as I feel T5 is too bloated to accommodate my needs. I want quick, simple and concise in my RPGs.

I find using system 68A or the UGM or whatever on top(which is not official in any way) totally annoying. In short, you shouldn't have to.

You don't. You can play straight Traveller; you can play 68A; you can import any resolution mechanic you want into Traveller.

So I'd propose that with a fix for the rules that are bugging people in some way or an update to incorporate a method to adequately explain it further, could we all be happy and finally have a rules set that the majority could all agree on?

I doubt there'd be a majority. The reason being, and this is addressed earlier in the thread, there's almost 40 years of history behind this game. For me, I'd say keeping it CT would be the better choice because I hate dice pools. I also dislike roll under. Just from those two sentences alone, there could be entire debates about which would be better for Traveller; follow that with the inclusion of any option, and the debate will probably never end.

I take T5 for what it is: It's Marc Miller's Traveller. Emphasis on Marc Miller's. It's his vision of where he wanted it to go; I am free to take resources from T5 and use it in my games, but I won't be using a dice pool or a roll under resolution mechanic.

In some ways Traveller has an underground movement a bit like the Linux computer operating system. It's a great operating system, but overall it's open source chaos, where there's so many varieties you end up with a lot of software that will not run on your version without recompiling source etc.

That's actually why they wrote alien. It repackages from one package format to another.

No 2 users may have the same setup or even be able to use all the features of anothers system for example.

Which is no different from Windows or Mac, actually.

Essentially it would be comforting to know there could be a system that all Traveller players the world over could at the very least agree that's the universal standard...

Personally I think T5 could very well present that system once refined and only Traveller players can make that happen.

What do you think?

I think it's unlikely, but it'd be interesting to see.

My "universal standard" would be 2d6, 68A for task resolution. Armor is not damage reducing but modifies hit rolls (to represent penetration, etc.) by energy weapon, slug thrower, edged, blunt and piercing weapons; the modifier is -2, -1, 0, +1 or +2. A character doesn't get a lot of skills during generation like Book 1, though I like Homeworld skills. I like the Life Events of T5, so I'd keep those, and I'd use range bands for starship combat. I can't speak to personal combat yet because I'm still debating if I like MT's version over CT yet.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

I may be an anomaly, but I've found myself going backward. I started with Mongoose, read through TNE and Megatraveller then settled on CT. The adoption of rules systems, at least from my POV, are simply GMs finding rulings and house rulings they happen to agree with. 68A, UGM, dice pool, 2d6 or whatever: It's whatever makes Traveller your Traveller, much like how some DMs will hack D&D incessantly.

Much as I feel T5 is too bloated to accommodate my needs. I want quick, simple and concise in my RPGs.

Well there you are fellow Travellers, one Traveller who actually wants simple rules again. That sounds like a Traveller lite requirement for T5 to me.

You don't. You can play straight Traveller; you can play 68A; you can import any resolution mechanic you want into Traveller.

You can, however what you tend to find is that most players will suddenly want rule X, Y and Z on top of the standard rules your playing. Yes it as your the ref it can be enforced but that's not always in the best interest of peace and keeping the game going.

I doubt there'd be a majority. The reason being, and this is addressed earlier in the thread, there's almost 40 years of history behind this game. For me, I'd say keeping it CT would be the better choice because I hate dice pools. I also dislike roll under. Just from those two sentences alone, there could be entire debates about which would be better for Traveller; follow that with the inclusion of any option, and the debate will probably never end.

I take T5 for what it is: It's Marc Miller's Traveller. Emphasis on Marc Miller's. It's his vision of where he wanted it to go; I am free to take resources from T5 and use it in my games, but I won't be using a dice pool or a roll under resolution mechanic.

Well Marc is the creator of Traveller so this really shouldn't be a problem.

That's actually why they wrote alien. It repackages from one package format to another.

The trouble with it is that once again you have a command line blurt to issue when you want to convert a software. My point on the Windows/Mac side, is that if your computer will run the software and you are running that operating system, it will work out of the box(occasionally there's a dodgy early release that thwarts the plan but I'm seeing less and less of that these days). With Linux this isn't the case and your hinging the argument on assuming that Alien will actually work(which it doesn't all the time going off other Linux users).

Which is no different from Windows or Mac, actually.

It's completely different. Software for Windows, will run on any system that has the requirements listed by the software. Not so with linux if your not using all the packages required to use that software and some of the necessary packages can be custom to a particular user, then no cigar. Not so with Win or Mac. As much as a lot of users may not like Windows or Mac(I for one don't like Mac's), at least they do keep to a standard for a particular version. Linux can change with just one package update.

I think it's unlikely, but it'd be interesting to see.

My "universal standard" would be 2d6, 68A for task resolution. Armor is not damage reducing but modifies hit rolls (to represent penetration, etc.) by energy weapon, slug thrower, edged, blunt and piercing weapons; the modifier is -2, -1, 0, +1 or +2. A character doesn't get a lot of skills during generation like Book 1, though I like Homeworld skills. I like the Life Events of T5, so I'd keep those, and I'd use range bands for starship combat. I can't speak to personal combat yet because I'm still debating if I like MT's version over CT yet.

Fair enough and thank you for your feedback.

 

[Hesperos]

Well there you are fellow Travellers, one Traveller who actually wants simple rules again. That sounds like a Traveller lite requirement for T5 to me.

I didn't order this! Do I get free shipping?

Actually, CT is simple enough for me right now; a T5 Lite would have to be comparable to that to get my attention. However, I appreciate robject's [Basic T5] posts. When I get to actually run T5, currently doing a MgT based game, I will probably reference that more than a few times.

It's completely different. Software for Windows, will run on any system that has the requirements listed by the software.

Ah. No, I misread your OP: No 2 users may have the same setup or even be able to use all the features of anothers system for example.

Hence my response: Windows and Mac users don't have the same setup either; while they can run software they meet requirements for, it doesn't mean they do. I get a few questioning looks at my bare bones desktop that doesn't have iTunes, Winamp, Photoshop or a Microsoft Office product.

Which is kind of the analogy to Traveller and gaming previously made; everyone has their own thing.

In spite of that, if I had to streamline T5 and be drawn, grumbling, into using a dice pool and roll under mechanic, I think the [Basic T5] posts make a good start. I'd also suggest refining combat to have less armor resistance types and authoritatively determine how damage is handled.

 

[Licheking]

What the kids are playing at lunch in the high schools here is mostly white wolf and palladium, with some D&D 3.X and 4.X (but outnumbered 2:1 by Palladium or White Wolf).

I have asked around my friends with kids in the young teenage market and the stores that do gaming as well, and they all agree with me at the moment the kids here are looking for more complex.

They have all been introduced to gaming through Warhammer and other games workshop products and have found them, after a time, to be too simply and lite on detail, but they have liked the settings. They are now looking around for something with more depth to play but with similar depth to the setting and with a more adult feel to it.

As i have said before its obviously an area/county/country thing.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

Striker T5 Style?

Fellow Travellers,
Incidentally, what are your thoughts on a new Striker to accompany T5? Someone mentioned Warhammer so with all the combat talk going on and a possible miniatures interest, could a detailed new Striker be an answer to combat system concerns?

 

[cuTTer]

Fellow Travellers,
Incidentally, what are your thoughts on a new Striker to accompany T5? Someone mentioned Warhammer so with all the combat talk going on and a possible miniatures interest, could a detailed new Striker be an answer to combat system concerns?

I wouldn't be against the idea, but I wouldn't be funding it up front.

 

[thalassogen]

Don't know Striker. Is it a dedicated miniature combat system? Small-unit skirmisch rules?

That would be of no interest to me. I like to roleplay (with good and believable subsystems). Skirmish gaming is not my cup of tea.

 

[SpaceBadger]

Don't know Striker. Is it a dedicated miniature combat system?

Yes, miniatures rules set in the universe of the Third Imperium.

However, many find it useful for designing weapons and vehicles for roleplay Traveller, and also as an alternative combat system for when things get out of hand during a roleplay session.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

For Striker, consult the CT books, available on a CDROM with the entire canon from FFE and then Striker 2(an update) became available with TNE(also available with the complete canon on 2 CDROM's from FFE).

 

[aramis]

For Striker, consult the CT books, available on a CDROM with the entire canon from FFE and then Striker 2(an update) became available with TNE(also available with the complete canon on 2 CDROM's from FFE).

Striker II is mechanically only very distantly related to Striker; it's actually the same as GDW's minis game for use with T2K 2E. ISTR it being Command Decision.

The link to striker looks convoluted...
MT borrowed from Striker.
TNE borrowed from MT Design sequences and from Twilight 2K 2E combat mechanics.
Striker II is pretty much TNE combat mechanics.

 

[MJD]

A while back I asked who was actually playing T5, as opposed to fiddling about with the makers and such. By now it should be obvious why we wanted to know - the question was whether to include T5 mechanics in the Foreven products we're putting out.

My general impression is that it isn't worth doing, since the T5 audience is small and the additional licensing faff is, well, faffy. But I'm prepared to be convinced otherwise....

 

[atpollard]

"faff" ... Is that a technical term?