Traveller 5 - With an update can it eclipse CT?

[esampson]

I think support is the main issue. Classic Traveller had a pretty poor combat system in the core too. Indeed, Marc might be being cagey / sleazy by holding off on a proper tactical combat system for a supplement. . .

Or it could be the fact that the book was already over 600 pages so more advanced systems for combat, starship combat, starship building, etc. had to be pushed off to later books as was done with CT.

I was puzzled at one point about the sort of half and half limbo starship construction is in between the old CT Starships book (hulls are all in even increments, engines are more or less pre-defined) and CT High Guard (bays, spinal mounts, globe generators, etc.). I think now the most likely reason for its current shape is that the book is so large and there isn't really the space to add more detail to ship construction (though to be honest I have to wonder how much space would be taken up with a 'drive is x%' system) but at the same point it was felt that there was a need for putting in some of the large ship information so players wouldn't think that those systems had just disappeared.

 

[Shonner]

(coming from AD&D to The Traveller Book) armor making you harder to hit made perfect sense ... remember THAC0 (To Hit Armor Class 0)?

I didn't like it in AD&D 1st Ed either.

I do prefer the newer 'armor reduces damage' rules.

I'd even go with using armor degradation over time rules (for now though, I just have armor condition listed on my character sheet: good, fair, poor sort of thing). But yep, I like the armor reduces damage rules.

 

[pennshome723]

I always liked and still use today, Armor absorbs damage and not makes a person harder to hit. Example a US Combat troop in the field wearing battle armor, they are not harder to hit but if they are the armor absorbs or stops some or all the damage potential of the hitting shot to the body.

Now in my In-House rules, I have hit location as well too. It is broken down into: Head, Lt Arm, Rt. Arm, Chest, Abdomen, Lt Leg and Rt. Leg. A person has a over all HPs and each body part has a percent of that HPs in structure points each. If one were to add up all the over all structure points they have more structure points than HPs, but a person drops at zero HPs, and dead at negative their Con stat.

So if someone is wearing some armor type or device, that region has a base factor of damage absorption. That amount in points is subtracted from the damage amount and the rest is taken off the locations structure point. When a area is at zero the location is unusable (Arms and Legs). If the Head, Chest, or Abdomen are reduced to zero structure points a player must make a Con check each round to do anything. If they fail once they are alert but can not do anything that round. If the next round they fail a Con check again (two times in a row) they pass out, and will bleed out at 1 point a Combat round till they are dead at negative their Con. Note if someone gives them aid and stops their bleeding, they will not die from blood loss.

I have a few other house rules that are also added into this as well too, but the system does work and gives a player a fighting chance.:smirk:

 

[cuTTer]

I think support is the main issue. Classic Traveller had a pretty poor combat system in the core too. Indeed, Marc might be being cagey / sleazy by holding off on a proper tactical combat system for a supplement.

If I got to manage the thing there'd be two lines. One of inexpensive digest sized books and another of big fat hard backs. The first thing in the first line would be a playable in one book version without the makers or dice mechanic analysis. I'd probably even leave out world building and ship design. But it would have the ships all statted out and more equipment and vehicle examples than we got in T5. The next digest would be The Spinward Marches.

The next big fat book would be a massive atlas of known space that would cover the major races in detail including vehicles and weapons. The UWPS and sector maps would take up at least half of the book. And I'd find and pay for the best comprehensive map on the internet.

But the general line of the small books would be actual play material and the fat books would be more solo Traveller and detail freak Traveller. Maybe a huge technical compendium could be fat book three with weapons and equipment and the captital ship rules. I don't know that there needs to be an endless line of new fat books. I'd like a comprehensive core but stuff like tactical combat games for space and ground would get stuck in as soft backs.

Somewhere parallel to all that I'd want to get out a plastic miniatures range with a sprue for each of the major races and another for ships. I'd do 15mm for the figures because 15mm sf is pretty popular and it would allow a couple vehicles on each sprue along with a good number of figures. I'd try for a consistant but sliding scale for the ships so the fighters and such would be only 10mm in length, adventure class ships would be around 25mm in length, and capital ships would be around 50mm in length. But I'd do it with 3D digital models so a proper scale could be imposed. Yeah I know, me and miniatures but the reality is they offer more consistant and sustainable sales than books.

Of course I'd like to see Traveller bury Games Workshop, but that's just because I'm insane.

When I got home from work today I checked the releases for next week from Esdevium Games, as I do every Friday. I was intrigued the the Fate Core System book, mostly because it was £16.99, about $20. Finding Evil Hat's website I was stunned to find you could download a pdf of the product for free, with the option of paying later, if you like it.

310 pages of narrative orientated system on a try-before-you-buy model. Amazing. And it's the whole thing, not a 'lite' version. They do a lighter version, Fate Accelerated, and it can be tried on the same basis, 50 pages that would retail for $5 in print.

For those who enjoy that kind of thing (narrative play I mean), I'm sure you could do worse than a copy of Fate a couple of LBBs of Library Data.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I was 16 I think when I first read that rule. For the longest time, I thought it had to be a typo. But it was just a back-assward rule. Poorly designed. The rule is all better now after 30 years.

You're not the only one. I actually had a couple of players, more than once, shout at me that that couldn't be right (their language was a bit more salty). As ref I had to make up something right then and there.

 

[cuTTer]

I always liked and still use today, Armor absorbs damage and not makes a person harder to hit. Example a US Combat troop in the field wearing battle armor, they are not harder to hit but if they are the armor absorbs or stops some or all the damage potential of the hitting shot to the body.

Whether numerical armour class in D&D/AD&D or narrative armour class in Traveller, it was never simply about making the armour bearer harder to literally hit, it was modelling how likely it was that you would hit with any effect.

You can model that fact by saying an Auto Pistol is -5 'to-hit' Battle Dress, or you can do it by giving a basic pistol 1D damage and Battle Dress 45 points of Armour.

Neither are particularly difficult concepts, and for my money I prefer the slim chance of a pistol round finding a weak spot at a joint or vision slit (CT) than PCs being invulnerable to conventional weapons* (T5).

In CT it's not just a role to hit, it's a roll to hit AND WOUND.

*like Keff Richards.

Simples.

 

[Shonner]

When I got home from work today I checked the releases for next week from Esdevium Games, as I do every Friday. I was intrigued the the Fate Core System book, mostly because it was £16.99, about $20. Finding Evil Hat's website I was stunned to find you could download a pdf of the product for free, with the option of paying later, if you like it.

310 pages of narrative orientated system on a try-before-you-buy model. Amazing. And it's the whole thing, not a 'lite' version. They do a lighter version, Fate Accelerated, and it can be tried on the same basis, 50 pages that would retail for $5 in print.

For those who enjoy that kind of thing (narrative play I mean), I'm sure you could do worse than a copy of Fate a couple of LBBs of Library Data.

Some people have been mentioning running Traveller using Fate. So I downloaded Fate. Have to read it to see if I like it. 19 years ago, I didn't like Fudge which is what Fate comes from. I would like to like Fate so I can play Traveller with these guys.

In CT it's not just a role to hit, it's a roll to hit AND WOUND.

Marc's writing style left a lot to be desired for our group and groups near our group. Seeing Marc Miller's name meant more house-rules-required than normal.

 

[cuTTer]

Some people have been mentioning running Traveller using Fate. So I downloaded Fate. Have to read it to see if I like it. 19 years ago, I didn't like Fudge which is what Fate comes from. I would like to like Fate so I can play Traveller with these guys.

I know what you mean, I've played Fiasco and Apocalypse World, they good at what they're designed to do, but it doesn't cover all of my bases.

Ballsey move from Evil Hat though.

 

[Shonner]

I know what you mean, I've played Fiasco and Apocalypse World, they good at what they're designed to do, but it doesn't cover all of my bases.

One RPG to rule them all!

ADDED:
Ok. I read enough of the Fate rules just now. No likey. Deleted the Fate PDF.

 

[cuTTer]

One RPG to rule them all!

ADDED:
Ok. I read enough of the Fate rules just now. No likey. Deleted the Fate PDF.

lol, I like a man who knows his mind

"It'll have to go." BLAM.

 

[Shonner]

I'll just tell them to get Mongoose Traveller, if they don't have it already. Most of them had Starter Traveller before thinking to use Fate, because ST is lacking some expected things that current RPGs have. This has happened before a few times. Takes about a month for everyone to order their MgT books, once one player gets theirs first and loves it. The reason to try Fate is because of its rules-lite approach. MgT has that, too. Rules-lite players interested in generic sci-fi or Traveller gravitate to it.

 

[mechascorpio]

Some people have been mentioning running Traveller using Fate.

I went to a minicon a few years back and got in as a player to a weekend game of Diaspora, based on a previous version of FATE (OGL FATEv3). It was genuinely one of the best games of "Traveller"* I've ever played in, and I've been playing ever since. It's a very different style of play for both the players and the GM, and I can certainly see why it's not for everyone. Especially those of us whose roots in gaming come from before the "storytelling" era of the early 90s.

But I found the involvement of everyone around the table in shaping the characters, the setting, the encounters and the story to be really exhilarating. Especially after so many years of playing Traveller with GMs who are frustrated science fiction writers who ought to have been working on the railroad, or 3I Encyclopedists who just don't know when to stop talking and start playing.

Like I said, it's not for everyone (certainly not for many Traveller gearheads), but it's worth noting that FATE and games like Diaspora are a large part of where the action in the RPG market is these days, and I'd bet a lot more people have played Diaspora over the past 4 years than will ever play T5. It's been through something like 4 printings and over 5000 copies, won Best Rules in the 2010 ENnie Awards, and is much more affordable than T5. It's also a book that was written, playtested and published by pros who are meticulous and wonkish about things such as typography, layout, editing and so on (and they didn't even need 8 years and a $300k Kickstarter to do it). It's the kind of standard that's in play in most RPGs these days, and I wish FFE would take note of these kind of things.

* No, of course, Diaspora is not Traveller and the setting is not the OTU. Actually there is no official setting, and the 3I could be as easily applied as something like "Mass Effect". But the Traveller experience was at the roots of the game, which is semi-hard SF with some space opera elements, and the tropes feel very much like Traveller.

 

[Murdoc]

No, reread my post and EXACTLY what you were responding to.

OK, I'll admit I was pretty tired when I read that, as I was just on my way to bed at the time, so I'll take another look at exactly what you said.

What I notice first is that the second clause of your first statement is missing a subject and a verb. You said (Because of this reason) "so (something) (is) not really relevant to that part of the analysis." leaving me to have to infer what that something is, that is not relevant. Now you might have meant "that", in reference to what I was talking about, which was of course the amount of choice that would be sacrificed if T5 was made smaller, which is why I asked you if this was correct. You said no, so it must be something else. You might have meant "you" as in I myself am not relevant to the analysis, which could be supported by your second statement that said that you believe that Marc was marketing to existing Traveller players instead of the wider range of potential new players. Would this be more accurate? If so, then I don't think that that really challenges my position, because having choices in an RPG I think would be just as relevant to new players of Traveller as existing ones. If that is not what you meant, then it must be something else. He/she/they/it doesn't make any sense as candidates for the missing (something), as I can't see what those might be referring to. If one is please let me know.

Your second statement asserts that Marc was marketing to existing players instead of potential new ones, and as I said, I don't see how that changes my position, so either this isn't relevant, or I am not understanding it.

So overall, I guess I'm just not understanding you. I'm not sure what I was supposed to get from re-reading it. Maybe it's too soon after I've woken up, but it might help if you clarified for me, if you please. Another thought: is it possible you misinterpreted me when I said "choice", and thought that I was referring to the "choice" Marc made about who to market to? If so that might explain why you thought my statement was irrelevant, because if I was then yes, that would be true. But I wasn't, as I clarified above. Let me know.

 

[HG_B]

OK, I'll admit I was pretty tired when I read that,

You need about 40 more hours sleep and possible other things too.

I'll help you along though. It has nothing to do with what you or I, as Traveller vets, want the game to be. It only concerns NON players of Traveller who DO play other RPG's.

 

[robject]

Let's assume that T5's organizational and readability issues did not exist [...]

Let's also assume that this book is aimed squarely at GMs. [...]

Finally, let's acknowledge that the success of any RPG, both financially and in terms of popularity, is dependent on player buy-in. [...]

What is it about T5, especially to those players, that makes it the "ultimate" version of Traveller? What is it that should make it so much superior to previous versions of Traveller that everyone should gravitate to it instead of other versions?

Our group plays T5 because I referee T5. They haven't bought RPG books of any kind -- nor have they played any RPG -- for well over a decade.

They would buy a T5 Player's Guide: short, organized, errata-free, and (relatively) cheap. I can't see them buying the Big Black Book.

 

[Shonner]

Our group plays T5 because I referee T5. They haven't bought RPG books of any kind -- nor have they played any RPG -- for well over a decade.

They would buy a T5 Player's Guide: short, organized, errata-free, and (relatively) cheap. I can't see them buying the Big Black Book.

Doesn't exactly answer the question.

 

[rancke]

What is it about T5, especially to those players, that makes it the "ultimate" version of Traveller? What is it that should make it so much superior to previous versions of Traveller that everyone should gravitate to it instead of other versions?

And what is it that will make new players take up Traveller and provide the new blood it so sorely needs[*]?

[*] NB! The 'sorely needs' is a personal belief, not a fact.​

Hans

 

[Dagrill]

Hello fellow Travellers.
What do you think?

Hi,

All games systems develop and change over time in this Traveller is similar to D&D and the White Wolf storyteller games.

I missed a chunk of Traveller and came back with T20, which was a sensible sized book with nice colour illustrations, but I never actually used it to play a game and am currently playing a system mainly based on Mongoose traveller with some house rules.

I have purchased T5 to see where it is going and show support for Marc,
I will take some stuff from it assigning Nobles a chunk of land for instance.

I don't think it is possible to please all the people all the time so I think different versions of Traveller will continue to be used.

Kind Regards

David

 

[mechascorpio]

Doesn't exactly answer the question.

Yeah, I have no idea how any of that addressed my post or even the quoted sections. But I would say that any game whose product strategy is that only one person out of 4-6 at the table is the one buying a book does not have a bright future in front of it. And it certainly will never "eclipse" CT, let alone exist in the same sky. Imagine if the only people who had ever bought CT were the ones running games. I doubt this conversation (let alone this forum) would even exist.

 

[Shonner]

Yeah, I have no idea how any of that addressed my post or even the quoted sections. But I would say that any game whose product strategy is that only one person out of 4-6 at the table is the one buying a book does not have a bright future in front of it. And it certainly will never "eclipse" CT, let alone exist in the same sky. Imagine if the only people who had ever bought CT were the ones running games. I doubt this conversation (let alone this forum) would even exist.

I'll ref a Mongoose game at a store or on G+ Hangout for players that are new to Traveller but are not new to RPGs. Most of the players end up buying the Mongoose book and want to ref games of their own, which is cool. And then most of their players end up buying the book.

I'd say its the price of the book that puts off a lot of people. No discount really. But the low page count eventually sucks them in. Players don't what too many rules for a game they plan to ref for the first time. The skill list and careers are so easy to use as templates for other careers and skills a ref can add to their game. Refs can make a prisoner career if they wanted to. Games can be played without fussing through the MgT book on every player's turn because the mechanic is easy to remember.