Traveller renaissance

[Blue Ghost]

Since I'm one of the people pushing for the enjoyment to be had from playing Traveller with the original rules, I feel compelled to reply to these statements.

First, here's an interview that took place with Marc Miller on forum. In the interview Miller says the following:


Make of that what you will. But all the digging I've done suggests that, in fact, the Imperium as a setting for Traveller came after the creation of the rules -- as Miller explicitly states above.

Which I think everyone is okay with. One of the reasons I started coming here to this forum semi-regularly is because, in general, I find RPers to be a big more relaxed than hardcore war sim types--a few exceptions.

But now that the game has an established setting, how much of a draw is it to newer players? I don't think it is, and it's one of the reasons most of the people who post here are 1977-ers, who, for some strange reason, seem to be mostly ex or current military.

Whatever. It is what it is. But, it sure would be nice to find a group of varrying ages.

Last year when I moved up to where I am now I had a bunch of 20-somethings of middle eastern extract seem to want to get to know me, and all seemed gamer-oriented. One guy at the cash register even gave me his character sheet ... so ... I dunno. Did any of those guys stumble across this website? Probably not, but who knows?

Did the Imperium attract them if they did? I doubt it. Did they see a ... I don't know ... a Star Wars tie in? Probably not, especially since there's already an SW RPG on the market.

I just find it extraordinary that with the games alleged renewal via Mongoose, and perpetuation via GT (which I guess is no more), that the guy in the opening video would make the video that he did.

Like I say, whatever. I had hoped to create for the thing as a side, and crank out some GURPS-ish like adventures for it. But it's like either there aren't any players and the game survives on nostalgia because of people like me ... or, I don't know, I don't think the Fed subsidizes the game.

It just seems to be in this perpetual state of flux where it seems like it could thrive, but for some reason doesn't seem to show it, and yet it does.

John Watts' mentioned on one of the other threads that selling his ATU material is how he and his wife put food on the table and pay bills. Well, okay, that means the income he gets from sales is significant enough that he can buy whatever at the store and pay for whatever utilities.

If that's the case, then where're the ATU fanboys? Certainly not here.

A man does get curious.

 

[rhialto]

This isn't about any specific person. You enjoy a different universe, that's fine. More Travelling to you. In fact, it's more than fine, because many alternate universes are fascinating, and it's always fun to read about them.

But the Imperium board game came out earlier the same year. It may not have been directly connected to what would become the OTU, but it shows that the concepts were already percolating, even before the LBBs. The original Traveller rules already have built into them some of the central assumptions of the 3I, even at the LBB 1-3 stages.

I'm not the only one who sees the seeds of the setting right from the beginning. if it's important to you that the words Third Imperium don't show up in the first LBBs, again, more Travelling to you.

This is a matter of preference, so there's no right answer here. But what I've never understood about the LBB 1-3 movement is why it's so important to believe there was never any inkling of the 3I in the initial materials. So what if there were? You can still enjoy Traveller however you want.

This is why I refer to it as LBB 1-3 purity. There is a sentiment in some posts by some 1977 supporters, whether intentional or not, that they're somehow playing the "purest" version of the game, and that the 3I (as well as subsequent supplements, in particular High Guard) is some kind of subsequent heresy that ruined everything. I support Traveller. I don't care how people use it. I'm just curious why there seems to be genuine hostility towards the OTU with certain factions.

Well, as one of those who still has the board game (and took it out the other day to sort through the counters and scan the rules): you are right, the seeds are there, but there is no seedling or shoot.

And, for my part it's not meant to be hostility to the 3I so much as a gentle reminder that Traveller != the 3I. So in that sense I am playing a version of Traveller not mixed with subsequent assumptions: in one sense it is "pure" (not mixed with something I don't want), but not in every sense of the word (e.g., "free of contamination", "unadulterated").

 

[rhialto]

But now that the game has an established setting, how much of a draw is it to newer players? I don't think it is, and it's one of the reasons most of the people who post here are 1977-ers, who, for some strange reason, seem to be mostly ex or current military.

Did the Imperium attract them if they did? I doubt it. Did they see a ... I don't know ... a Star Wars tie in? Probably not, especially since there's already an SW RPG on the market.

It just seems to be in this perpetual state of flux where it seems like it could thrive, but for some reason doesn't seem to show it, and yet it does.

John Watts' mentioned on one of the other threads that selling his ATU material is how he and his wife put food on the table and pay bills. Well, okay, that means the income he gets from sales is significant enough that he can buy whatever at the store and pay for whatever utilities.

If that's the case, then where're the ATU fanboys? Certainly not here.

A man does get curious.

Aren't all the collected "Traveller" products part of the "renaissance"? T5, MgT2e, all the third-party published settings, supplements, etc.? It may not be "thriving" (like D&D), but it certainly seems "resurgent" from, say, 15 years ago.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Aren't all the collected "Traveller" products part of the "renaissance"? T5, MgT2e, all the third-party published settings, supplements, etc.? It may not be "thriving" (like D&D), but it certainly seems "resurgent" from, say, 15 years ago.

A few years back I got a game going, but (and to keep it non-political) it turned into another "Let's get Ghost off of gaming" effort.

I made up sheets from Snapshot showing how to tabulate Action Points, and how to use them in a combat round ... I had the SJGames GT deckplans for an Intruder Alert like scenario ... and even had a campaign planned. GT was, from all indications, at its height, but for some reason the only group I can muster are a bunch of people with an agenda.

Where. Are. The. Regular. Joe. Gamers?

Then I hear the game isn't doing so well. Well, okay, fine. Maybe I'll play something else. But HERO / Champions is a heavy dice game, more suited to superhero combat, as per its design, and, to be extremely honest, doesn't lend itself to RPing as well as being strangely un-imaginative (i.e. focusing on confronting super-criminals and super-criminal henchmen / organizations). Eh ... what to do?

During that time GT was adorning the shelves, the big book reprints were fading, but were still there, and even T20 was still on the scene. So ... I guess it's thriving after a fashion.

But I sure am getting mixed signals for one of my favorite hobbies.

 

[aramis]

I think the Imperium definitely existed as a concept at the same time as Traveller's rules were coming together. It may not have sprung fully formed from Marc's head, but I do think it was a tandem development.

Dislike of the 3I and 1977 purity does seem to be popular at the moment, and that's fine if it makes people happy. But I think even in LBB 1-3, you can already see the Imperium between the lines.

That can be shown by the designer's notes for Imperium (Dragon #20, p.3)... which was in development starting in '74 - Imperium started life in 74, and was merged with Star Fleet, in order to become the game, and it was released around the same time as Traveller.

Imperium began as two separate and distinct games, each trying to achieve a different science-fiction goal. One game was titled Imperium, and was a giant; the other was tentatively called Star-Fleet and was more conventional in size.

That same article gives the source of the Vilani names as Sumerian...provided by Prof. David MacDonald.

The rest of the stars also needed names, and using the stellar catalog numbers just didn’t give enough flavor. After some discussion, we got David MacDonald (local ancient history professor) to give us a list of Sumerian words to serve as star names. They are scattered over the map board now for Imperial starts. I was surprised to see the same technique used by MetaGaming in Warp War; they also used Sumerian words for star names. Either one of us has a spy in the other’s camp, or great minds follow similar lines.

 

[LeperColony]

That can be shown by the designer's notes for Imperium (Dragon #20, p.3)... which was in development starting in '74 - Imperium started life in 74, and was merged with Star Fleet, in order to become the game, and it was released around the same time as Traveller.

That same article gives the source of the Vilani names as Sumerian...provided by Prof. David MacDonald.

I'm not surprised they started with a historical influence.

I recall reading somewhere once that the origin of the various humaniti names were inspired by the names the Romans had given to the Germanic tribes (Helvetii, Alemanni, etc).

 

[Terquem]

The last time I ran a face to face Traveller game was about 2008, and I used the LBB with a few house rules whereby I was trying to see if there was a way to mash together Alternity and Traveller.

My group were all boys between the ages of 16 and 24 (with my two youngest sons).

All but one of the players was dead on seriously enthralled about the system (the game system) how it described the careers, the "lawless fringes of the Imperium" sort of feel I was going for, and the overall game mechanic.

It was the oldest player, who had a greater background in other games, like Star Wars d6 and d20 who seemed to have no patience for how I was running the game (but that just might have been a personality thing between us).

I run a few PbP games over at Paizo and there is usually at least one Traveller recruitment thread going each week over there, and I know people are playing a few different versions of it there as well.

I tried running an Annic Nova campaign there, but couldn't find enough players willing to play without having an SRD available to them. I think that this was a few years ago before such an online reference was available.

Does anyone know anything about this?

http://www.traveller-srd.com/core-rules/trade/

Anyway I've enjoyed reading the comments here, and it is sort of making me want to try to run my own PbP game here on these boards.

awhile back I asked if anyone had any information about the web site I linked in this post. There were no responses. Did I do something wrong or break some taboo I am not aware of?

 

[kilemall]

awhile back I asked if anyone had any information about the web site I linked in this post. There were no responses. Did I do something wrong or break some taboo I am not aware of?

Not at all, just probably better to make a separate thread to get attention to a side question.

I didn't respond because I saw 1000Cr and +200 per additional parsec, skimmed to the goods list and ceased interest.

I'm assuming this is MgT related given the SRD reference. I would tend to stick to CT LBB2 trade tables, a whole lot more selections and item/trade classification nuances, and LBB7 skill mods. The cargo/parsec model is too low IMO, unless you are looking to force gas giant refueling.

 

[creativehum]

But what I've never understood about the LBB 1-3 movement is why it's so important to believe there was never any linking of the 3I in the initial materials. So what if there were? You can still enjoy Traveller however you want.

It was an effort to be able to talk on this board without constant interruptions about the Third Imperium.

"That doesn't work because of how nobles are created..."
"Starports don't work that way because of what it says in the Starship Operators Manual..."
"No, that can't be how your subsector works because of this long argument that we've never solved about how the Imperium interacts with local worlds..."

"Guys... I'm not talking about The Third Imperium..."

"But Traveller is the Third Imperium..."

"Humor me..."

"Okay... sorry."

And then two post later it starts again...

"No, the way the trade rules work in Book 7 means installer trade works like this..."

Keep in mind, all I have done in pointing out the original Traveller rules are setting free is:

• Quote text from the original rules
• Quote interviews with and articles by Marc Miller (many of them within three or four years of Traveller's release)
• Look at the history and text of later materials in the Classic Traveller line
• Look at the game culture and tradition at the time of and before Traveller's release

I often don't have to draw conclusions. I simply point to something Miller said. (The fact that people choose to simply ignore what Miller says and blow by his quotes is a problem I've decided to ignore.) And when I do draw conclusions the conclusions are about as bluntly drawn from the texts mentioned above as possible.

I did this because it was my belief that for some people the Classic Traveller rules would be exactly what they were looking for -- if only the Third Imperium of the setting could be stripped away so they could make the setting they want. (Certainly this was the case for me.) But, as noted above, on some sites it was impossible to talk about the game without constantly being corrected about the Third Imperium.

So I felt a need to prove it. Whether this was a healthy need or simply a hobby is something I'm not beginning to question! But at the time I felt I had to do to prove to myself I wasn't crazy. Because I was constantly being corrected and interrupted on this site and I thought, "Maybe they are right! I better take a look at this stuff before I assume anymore." So I dug in, did the work, and lo and behold, there was the text, there were the quotes from Miller, there was the gradual building of the OTU over time...

And we see: In the original rules, there is no setting. The text says it. Marc Miller has said it. It's a done deal.

Yes, the Third Imperium was made from those rules, but many settings can be made from those rules. It isn't a big deal. But there it is. The fact that in the offices of GDW there was a stew of SF concepts that Miller was drawing from when he made both Traveller and Imperium doesn't change the fact that the Third Imperium as such did not exist when Traveller was printed or that the game was specifically designed as a toolkit for Referee's to make their own setting. (Whether or not, as Aramis will soon point out, this was a good decision for a publisher, it was, in my view, an awesome thing for gamers.)

Note that I can turn your sentences completely around:

But what I've never understood about the Third Imperium movement is why it's so important to believe there was a direct linking of the 3I in the initial materials. So what if there wasn't? You can still enjoy Traveller however you want.

So there's no winning on this front. But I did make my case, and started the blog to write about this stuff, because I wanted other people to see the possibilities of the game. It's an amazing piece of RPG design and I wanted it celebrated as such. And now people have said they are enjoying Traveller again after many years because they see how they can use the rules to play the kind of game they want to play, but without the setting they didn't want but thought they had to.

Bingo. Done.

There's no purity here. No worry about ruining this. The Classic Traveller line has always been modular. (See Miller's answer to Aramis' question about the dichotomy between Books 2 and 5 in this Q&A on this forum...) Some people simply want to say, "Actually, all I need is these three books, and I'm good, thanks."

Of course, as I noted above, this forum will always be about The Third Imperium. It's baked into the DNA of its history, its baked into the thinking of the moderators. It simply is a forum that will take the Third Imperium as a given and even with effort all conversations will bend back toward assuming what we're really talking about when we talk about Traveller is the Third Imperium. This is neither good or bad! It simply is. It isn't going to change. Nor should it! If someone is really into Traveller focused on the Third Imperium, this is the place to come to.

But if one wants to use the rules for other ends, the usefulness is limited. No amount of discussion on this point will make any changes on this front.

That said, it has been great discussing these things here. I really had to take the whole game apart, look at all the pieces, sort through what would work for me and what I realized wouldn't.

As I build a setting for some Traveller play with my group (which I wanted to do for years), I do with with much more confidence and control of the material because I know it is mine to play with, with no obligation to anyone else's source material. And (for me at least) that is awesome thing.

 

[Adam Dray]

I don't think it is, and it's one of the reasons most of the people who post here are 1977-ers, who, for some strange reason, seem to be mostly ex or current military.

It's a grognardy web site, and that turns off people who aren't likewise. Like begets like.

I'm neither a 1977-er nor ex-/current-military. While I first encountered Traveller in the mid-eighties, it didn't "take" and I never played it. I played Star Frontiers instead, then wrote my own Star Wars game in 1985 and ran that for friends until West End Games came out with their version.

If that's the case, then where're the ATU fanboys? Certainly not here.

I'm an ATU fanboy. Basically, my main interactions with the board have been about my own ATU settings. I run ATU games at TravellerCon and other conventions I attend. Most of these settings don't even have jump-drives.

I love John Watts and his Clement Sector stuff, but it hews way too closely to the core setting for my liking. <=)

Modiphius' Mindjammer setting was the first published ATU that really got me excited. Before that, T2300 was the closest.

 

[Terquem]

I sort of feel that, for me, I experience a Traveller renaissance about every 6 to 8 months.

I was introduced to Traveller in 1978

I have always run games set in MTU (Never was a fan of the OTU). I borrow from the OTU, but keep things different enough that any OTU player would probably not be comfortable in one of my games

Every time I see a new approach to Ships and their design, or new Sci Fi gaming approaches, I get fired up to revisit my own designs and how I like to run games.

The fact that the bigger wheels in this rules availability thing keep giving me new ways to get my hands on old books, resources, and other game related items sort of tells me that Traveller never actually "went away" but has a core fan following that is robust, if small, and through them new players are introduced to this type of role playing experience.

 

[Independence Games]

I don't think it is, and it's one of the reasons most of the people who post here are 1977-ers, who, for some strange reason, seem to be mostly ex or current military.

....

John Watts' mentioned on one of the other threads that selling his ATU material is how he and his wife put food on the table and pay bills. Well, okay, that means the income he gets from sales is significant enough that he can buy whatever at the store and pay for whatever utilities.

If that's the case, then where're the ATU fanboys? Certainly not here.

A man does get curious.

I'm not a 1977er nor am I a military man. Military history is one of my interests but I've never been in the military (save a stint in Junior ROTC in high school). I came on board to Traveller in the mid-80s. I don't post here because forums really are not my thing. In general, I find that forums tend to start arguments among people and I'd prefer not to argue with people. It's my nature. If I start an argument, I'll finish it and I'm often not the most polite person when I do. Therefore, for my own mental health and the ability to keep reading and posting on this forum, I tend to avoid posting in threads such as this.

I do read them, however, and since my name was brought into the conversation, I thought I should wade in for a short bit.

The answer to your question is simple: Facebook. Google Plus to a lesser extent.

The "ATU fanboys" (as you call them) tend to skew younger than the "77ers" (as you say) and that sort of social media is more attractive to them than a forum. Indeed, I've seen it said there that forums are part of a lower tech level that makes them equivalent to VCRs, answering machines, and CD-ROMs. Your mileage may vary. Speaking for myself, I'm a 40-something man who tends to prefer Facebook over forums for the reasons I list in the first paragraph here.

Most people I've spoken with on the subject tend to see COTI as being "OTU centered" and fairly unfriendly to other viewpoints. I do not share that view as, generally speaking, most people here have been friendly and cordial to me. There are exceptions.

Hope that helps.

 

[ffilz]

It was an effort to be able to talk on this board without constant interruptions about the Third Imperium.

"That doesn't work because of how nobles are created..."
"Starports don't work that way because of what it says in the Starship Operators Manual..."
"No, that can't be how your subsector works because of this long argument that we've never solved about how the Imperium interacts with local worlds..."

"Guys... I'm not talking about The Third Imperium..."

"But Traveller is the Third Imperium..."

"Humor me..."

"Okay... sorry."

And then two post later it starts again...

"No, the way the trade rules work in Book 7 means installer trade works like this..."

My own posting hasn't been hit too bad by this, but as a reader, it's frustrating to read a topic and think to myself, oh, there it goes again.

There's a good crew here, and lots of good ideas, but it would be nice if the above didn't happen so often.

Frank

 

[LeperColony]

Note that I can turn your sentences completely around:

You actually can't though, because I hold no hostility to ATU's. That's the point.

You enjoy Traveller in an ATU? I think that's great. I don't go into every thread about ATUs and point out it doesn't jive with some "official" material. I feel no need to defend playing in the OTU (when I do so, which isn't all the time).

This is the entire point of my observation, and why I believe LBB 1-3 has become a "movement." Somewhere in the middle of attempting to explain the differences, some people have veered into out right hostility towards how other people play Traveller using the OTU.

I snipped the other part of the discussion because it was obviously going to become circular. Many people, myself included, see as obvious the simultaneous and mutually supportive development of the OTU and the Traveller rules. Others, like you, feel differently. That summary will help cut out an unknown but presumably large sequence of posts.

 

[ffilz]

You actually can't though, because I hold no hostility to ATU's. That's the point.

You enjoy Traveller in an ATU? I think that's great. I don't go into every thread about ATUs and point out it doesn't jive with some "official" material. I feel no need to defend playing in the OTU (when I do so, which isn't all the time).

Though as creativehum has pointed out, folks DO DO THAT. Not everyone, but some folks.

This is the entire point of my observation, and why I believe LBB 1-3 has become a "movement." Somewhere in the middle of attempting to explain the differences, some people have veered into out right hostility towards how other people play Traveller using the OTU.

Where is the hostility? I don't have it, I don't see creativehum having hostility. I haven't seen hostility to the OTU from the Book 1-3 folks here or other places. Ok, so on Google+ I was looking at adventures, and calling out ones that were harder to disentangle from the OTU, but that wasn't hostility, just pointing out those that were more tightly coupled, and those SHOULD exist, I just might choose not to use them.[/QUOTE]

 

[Blue Ghost]

Facebook and Google accounts it is, then. Interesting.

 

[Blue Ghost]

My own posting hasn't been hit too bad by this, but as a reader, it's frustrating to read a topic and think to myself, oh, there it goes again.

There's a good crew here, and lots of good ideas, but it would be nice if the above didn't happen so often.

Frank

But I think the fanboy arguments over the setting, to me at least aren't that prevalent. I don't think it's an issue now other than us wondering on this thread if it's an attraction for newer and younger players.

 

[ffilz]

Facebook and Google accounts it is, then. Interesting.

What's frustrating is trying to follow conversations on social media platforms. On a forum, it's easier to see all the topics under discussion, and a big forum like this has them organized into several different buckets.

I follow Traveller RPG on Facebook, but it's frustrating.

Classic Traveller on Google+ is less so.

 

[Blue Ghost]

What's frustrating is trying to follow conversations on social media platforms. On a forum, it's easier to see all the topics under discussion, and a big forum like this has them organized into several different buckets.

I follow Traveller RPG on Facebook, but it's frustrating.

Classic Traveller on Google+ is less so.

I have an FB account just for the sake of it, but rarely use it, but yeah, I agree that FB and Google aren't conducive to in depth discussions on topics. I avoid them for that very reason, other than the privacy thing.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Well, as one of those who still has the board game (and took it out the other day to sort through the counters and scan the rules): you are right, the seeds are there, but there is no seedling or shoot.

The 3rd Imperium histories were added to the board game in later printings. GDW's last edition of Imperium had pages of 3rd-Imperium stuff in it from the Library Data books.

Anyway, I use the puzzle-pieced starmap to get players in the mood/feel of things when I do a Traveller session that takes place near Sol during that era. I don't use the map for playing Imperium.