It doesn't seem to me that it would be much more work than moving from MT back to CT.
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Traveller renaissance
- Thread starter Blue Ghost
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It doesn't seem to me that it would be much more work than moving from MT back to CT.
creativehum
SOC-14 1K
Actually, I believe you and I are very similar in our tastes.
This is one of the reasons I prefer CT over MgT.
MgT has a very structured, well defined system for resolving situations. Most people choose a game like MgT at least in part because they don't want to be winging it. There is a long list of specific skills to be used in combination with specific attributes so that resolution is consistent and uniform. I believe this difference is one of the key differences which determine whether someone will choose a game like CT over MgT (or the other way). Game design has moved to much more structured rules over the decades in which a die roll is used to solve problems.
What I have found (in my own experience) is that this kind of play isn't my cup of tea. Players tend to look at their character sheets and make a die roll to solve problems rather than play out and describe details of the situation at hand.
For some reason you are making a ton of assumptions about me. I don't know why. I certainly have pissed you off. I don't know why.
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Thanks for speaking up, Welf. I gotta say this jives almost 100% with my own experiences here, visiting FFE, and with Traveller in all its versions out in the wild.
It's not that folks can't be cordial, or helpful, or brilliant; happens all the time. I have great conversations and fan-meets-mover-and-shaker convos with some of the people who make things happen with Traveller now. But how you describe your initial impressions about the game, the brand, or the forum were right in alignment with my own.
I also poke into Reddit, Mongoose forums, and the Facebook group. FB in particular is pretty active. I think what's been said about the first two communities jives very much with my own experience; I'd say Facebook is more sharply divided, with what seems like equally loud proponents split between modern ( MgT ), CT, and CE - which I don't personally classify as Traveller but I'm in the minority there - and a sprinkling of advocacy for the remaining versions.
I'm a very experienced roleplayer and GM, and coming back to Traveller and orienting was difficult for me - which books go with which version? Which version is "best" for me and my players?
After doing the work of climbing the hill, it's easier now. I appreciate the nuances of the different systems and they're like different members of a family. But this is a hell of a hill to climb for someone new to the hobby, or new to Traveller, with expectations set somewhere else. Then when newbies go online looking for help I suspect many have an experience much like you did, Welf.
Glad you're here. Good luck with the climb. There's a galley serving questionable rations and a double-occupancy rack at the top waiting for you.
After reading this message, I believe you're right.
I don't really have a problem with the list of skills or the characteristic modifiers. The modifiers make more sense than the MT ones. They're a lot easier than trying to memorize, or having to look up, Advantageous modifiers.
That seems to be what kids want these days.
Let's chalk it up to Internet miscommunication - a not infrequent occurrence on forums. Maybe we were both being too snarky for our own good.
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LiNeNoiSe;565192. said:
Ignore this. This is just me thinking out loud and trying to resolve my own ambivalence on the issue.
Having said that, I go back and forth on this. I understand what your saying, role playing not roll playing. I get it. But what if your not a great role player? You enjoy the game. You enjoy everyone else's role playing but you're just no good. What then? Are they just screwed?
I would think of course not. They acted their little heart out and regardless of how good a role player they are they get a pass and succeed. But then it's just GM's whim. Or amounts to that. For some people that's gonna be ok. For others it's not.
If we go by that logic and I have a character that can military press 200 pounds shouldn't I as a player be able to do that? Maybe not the full 200 but then what? Where's the arbiter between GM fiat and the players?
I believe the GM should FIRMLY be in control of the game. How ever players, if they're being reasonable and think it's fair, will go along with GM fiat until they are not being reasonable or think it's not fair. What then? Do you as the GM back off or do they have to suck it up and move on?
I (currently today, it could change) think their should be a die roll involved After they have role played to determine the outcome.
I dunno. I just though this could use more discussion.
It just occurred to me that we're always winging it to a certain extent. Whenever a ref chooses a task level he is assigning a subjective probability to an event.
creativehum
SOC-14 1K
LiNeNoiSe and Thanos,
These are big, important topics. (They are about how we PLAY -- which is what I ca e about most.)
I've made posts about these topics here and on my blog. If we get the Referee sub-forum set up I look forward to talking about these matters there.
These are big, important topics. (They are about how we PLAY -- which is what I ca e about most.)
I've made posts about these topics here and on my blog. If we get the Referee sub-forum set up I look forward to talking about these matters there.
In that case, I would probably use more dice rolls. That's what I had to do with D&D players.
I would probably back off and roll the dice if they thought I was treating them unfairly.
I'm not speaking in absolutes. In general, I would prefer to roleplay. Except for combat, I would prefer to keep the dice rolling to a minimum. I do recognize, however, that sometimes the smart move is to roll the dice.
I'm glad you did.
Plus one for this. Get out the vote
I've found that my better sessions happen when I have firm control, but it seems like the players are doing all the deciding and moving. The more skillful I am at pulling the occasional string and nudging without being noticed when ( in my judgement ) something needs to be adjusted, the better.
On Roll v Role... I feel like for my best games there isn't a one-size-fits-all. It's not so much about what I'd prefer or do, although that figures into it a bit. I need to know my players really well: what motivates them, what do they think is fun, how are they challenged? I won't demand someone roleplay a convo out when they're clearly uncomfortable as a player, but I can occasionally draw out the one liners and coax them into an area of comfort over various encounters, while the people who -love- playing their roles dive into things.
What's fun? What moves the ball? What brings people back, or as they're packing up what has them talking excitedly about next time? These are the important things to me.
Sorry for contributing to the topic drift; this one is also near and dear to me.
Interesting, of your list there are only three I don't know about (Hollowpoint, Blades of the Iron Throne, and The Nightmares Underneath) and I have half of your list on my own shelves (ok, Pendragon and Apocalypse World I only have in PDF). I do have many more than that on my shelf though... And even more in PDF form...
You say some really important things. Here's what I said on another forum, and it's just as applicable here:
I used to try to buy every new RPG product, well, I never really did, but it seemed like it back in the late 70s and early 80s. The reality is I never had the time to look at everything.
These days, I get 2-3 hours of Google Hangouts gaming a week, and some number of hours of web surfing, and a budget that allows for an occasional purchase, and an occasional splurge.
So I've cut my core RPG interests down to Original D&D (the box of little brown books first published in 1974, mine is a Original Collectors Edition, 6th printing I think), Classic Traveller (mine is the box of little black books from 1977), RuneQuest (with a very strong preference for the original 1978 edition, but willing to use the 2nd edition, and have mined the Avalon Hill edition), and Burning Wheel Gold (guess what, there's a relatively new game there!). Now my shelves have a variety of other games, though other than the Gold edition of Burning Wheel, pretty much no RPG rules newer than 2007 (ok, Torchbearer is in there also...), with a small handful of inspiring other newer products (mostly OSR since they support my interests).
But I'm not going to rain on anyone else's parade. I think various new RPGs made changes in game play that lead a direction I'm no longer interested in (or never was interested in), but I don't have to attack those who are interested in them, in exchange, I'd appreciate folks not disparaging my interests (and calling it sad that I won't buy the latest craze game is disparaging my interests).
I'd also be perfectly comfortable if the commercial world for gaming products suddenly ended. As long as I could find fellow players, I'd be happy with what I've got now (and in fact, I've even actually packed a briefcase with a minimal set of gaming materials that I could easily live with, and it includes all four of the games in my core interest).
In one sense though, Traveller and many other games are seeing some kind of renaissance, not because they went away and came back, but because the internet has made it easier for someone interested in a game other than one of the top 10 (or whatever) to find players, or to find people talking about the game they are interested and inspire them to dust off the old book at pull it out and play. Your blog posts and other folks discussions inspired me to gen up a Traveller setting and simultaneously start a play by post game and try out this Google Hangouts thing for gaming. And now instead of bemoaning that I don't get to play much, and can't find players for my games, I'm playing Traveller (note that I HAVE been playing OD&D by post for almost 9 years now).
Frank
As to roll vs role play...
First, I've come to dislike that phrase. Ultimately, my feeling is if dice aren't hitting the table, I'm not sure we're playing a game. On the flip side, I don't like the style of play a couple folks have pointed out here where the rolls dominate the game and it feels like some sort of board game. I also feel like role playing can actually look like different things. It isn't just speaking in character, and in fact, I believe role playing can occur with almost no 1st person in character speech.
First, I've come to dislike that phrase. Ultimately, my feeling is if dice aren't hitting the table, I'm not sure we're playing a game. On the flip side, I don't like the style of play a couple folks have pointed out here where the rolls dominate the game and it feels like some sort of board game. I also feel like role playing can actually look like different things. It isn't just speaking in character, and in fact, I believe role playing can occur with almost no 1st person in character speech.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Among other things, the roll play is literally what computer RPGs HAVE to do, and is a far more powerful built-in assumption/cultural training about 'how games work' then even D&D.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
During many wargames, I am putting myself on the bridge/ramparts, or saying my general/admiral is doing things calculated to annoy and disrupt the calm of my opponents.
A really destructive psywar 'character' I will play during a game is Mr. Ed the Wargaming Horse, where I make comments about how such and such a move just doesn't make horse sense, all in the voice of the TV character. Example for the 'culturally deprived'-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0XcH6d-1Ms
The issue is less how many rolls are made, but whether the rolls are made in lieu of problem solving and character expression.
creativehum
SOC-14 1K
I was talking about this with my RPG friends a few weeks ago... the notion that:
- computer games took the basic tools of original D&D
- but had to codify them in a much more limited style of play (lacking a Referee that could adjudicate any situation)
- and the RPGs (for some reason) decided to become more like codified computer game experience even though they do not have to be
I think lots of folks have played computer games and said, "Oh, I see, RPGs are just like computer games played with friends," and try to emulate that.
ShawnDriscoll
SOC-14 1K
The OSR crowd prefer their RPGs to be presented in the old adventure gaming rules style. The 1st-Gen games like The Traveller Book, and AD&D 1st Edition.
Mongoose Traveller 1st and 2nd Editions are more of a 2nd-Gen RPG style.
ShawnDriscoll
SOC-14 1K
That's exactly how I have my new players at the table do their role-play. Each player simply tells me where their character is and what they are currently doing at that moment. That is the bare minimum of role-play that I require from them. From what they tell me, I'll decide if a roll is needed or not. There are few rolls made in my game sessions.
Thank you Welf!
I have cherry picked the good stuff. This is the uphill battle we "older" gamers need to address within ourselves. Some of the challenge is production values. Some is reputation.
My daughter who is 20 now will not play Traveller because she heard about CT death during chargen. I did not tell her as I was trying to get her to play MgT 1e! She was 15 at the time. I swear I did not tell her. She also did not like CT lack of graphics. Remember LBB 1-3 does not even have Keith art. Finally, where is her cybernetic arm with integral 5-shot laser? (There was an anime she liked. Her catchphrase is "Talk to the hand!") She likes MgT2e precisely because lack of chargen death is baked into the rules, there is artwork and the modern tropes are easily found.
A Renaissance is not just about old people with evolving ideas. It is also about new people and their ideas. Those damned kids :rofl: (Just kidding Welf!)
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Hmm, pretty easy to just write rules for any equipment desired.
The MgT computer rules ARE more functional, although I would trace them from the Space Opera complexity computer rules through GURPS, so just a rationalization of RPG tech that already existed circa 80s-90s.
Marry them up with any of the 2300 biotech/cybertech or other cyberpunk games, and there isn't really that much new, other then more systematically incorporated.
I think you are missing the point kilemall or defending ours without accepting the other sides viewpoint. Specifically, since a "modern" trope enjoyed and expected by younger people is not in a book, they will move on. Your solution is correct, but if you have access to those multiple books.
If a kid or young adult (pre-30s) is going to buy and have general access to ONE and only one sci-fi rulebook, what will that be? The one with the bad rep that my dad likes, or the one the other gamers talks about with where I can have my trope (look its right there on page xx!)?
But I get the idea of the older tropes. I personally have issues with transhumanist "I wanna be a butterlfly". But I see where they are coming from.
If a kid or young adult (pre-30s) is going to buy and have general access to ONE and only one sci-fi rulebook, what will that be? The one with the bad rep that my dad likes, or the one the other gamers talks about with where I can have my trope (look its right there on page xx!)?
But I get the idea of the older tropes. I personally have issues with transhumanist "I wanna be a butterlfly". But I see where they are coming from.
Possibly. And yet the game used to be fairly high profile with it's own private rack for the LBBs, usually next to the pegs where SJGames and miscellany indy games hung. The D&D section in the hobby shops that carried it, took up an entire wall.
So this isn't 1985, nor even 1979. Fine. But at the last couple of cons I went to there was barely any mention of the game that used to be the staple of the scifi crowd.
And, I was one of those who didn't take to it at first because of the lack of graphics. And, to be honest, I almost gave up on it when Keith's sketches were "paying homage" to other artists. Whatever.
A few years back when I ditched one gaming group and tried to scrounge up another I had a hell of a time. Most of the Meetup gaming groups are teens to 20-something Pathfinder people. I don't care who you are, what age you are, but it would be nice to find maybe one or two people my age, and then a variety of other people who might be interested.
So ... back in the dark ages (pre-net) it was a matter of geography and communication. But now it's a matter of the game itself having aged. If Mongoose Matt says there's a larger base, then great. But, well ... where are they?
So, I come here and start threads like this one. I'm kind of Travellered out. I may take up underwater basket weaving or something. But it sure would have been nice to ... I don't know ... do something.
Killemall; your PM box is full.
Back to the scout ship.
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