Traveller - The Model
- Thread starter Patron Zero
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...The problem with having a company make a resin cast model is the cost. And then of course the price. It won't be cheap, not less than $100 per model I'd guess. More if you want details or a large scale. Last I looked into it anyway, which was a couple years or more so maybe prices have come down.
I even looked into a prototype 3D printer kit, as it looked to be a bit cheaper for large volumes of smallish parts.
There's ways and means, if you have money and energy to get set up, work out the legals, run herd the artists, and loose your shirt at the end of the dayAll for the glory and fame of producing Traveller minis/models. Not to discourage anyone, but it's a long shot that you'll break even, never mind get rich.
Not looking to get that ambitious, at least not yet. Would there be much of a demand for such a product, assuming of course you could make it affordable to produce and the end user to buy? Anybody got opinions on such an idea?
Format - Resin, foam board, cardstock, paper?
Type - Full model, deckplans with walls, something else?
Price ranges you'd be willing to pay?
3D printing services can take certain dxf files and turn them into one-off printings. Certain ones even let you sell others printouts of your files.
Shapeways.com prices at $1.50 per cc of material used for WS&F plastic and $10.00/cc for stainless. Minimum resolution varies by material. Steel, for example, would need to be 3mm thick in the sizes being considered, and the ship would need to be done in parts if more than 10cm in any dimension...
But, in any case, it's doable, but frightfully expensive. For reference, just the hull alone in 1/72 would be almost 1000cc in steel. WS&F cold be about 1/3 that.
Anyone consider vacuum formed plastic sheeting for the compound curves, wooden sheets for the straight, and then fiberglassing the end result?
I built some R/C sailboat hulls that way and then sold the final molds to a local club. Fiberglass is relatively cheap, easy to work with, and light. The vacc-forming I do with my shop vac and a vacc-box. A vacuum table is larger, but still easy to make: http://www.tk560.com/vactable4.html
You could even use foam board (it comes in different grades so you can get some that is better for shaping curves with a surfom. I use one for shaping foam for boat hulls and small RTV resin castings for my own plastic models.
I also use balsa sheeting and cores to make hulls and then fiberglass the exterior of the hull for strength and easy water-proofing. Again, it's quick, light, and cheap. And can be then painted anything I want.
For example, this one is made from balsa sheets cut to forms traced on paper, small blocks at the bow to shape the angles, then the whole thing covered with thin balsa glued to the ribs and blocks. Then I fiberglassed the outside, sanded and filled low spots, and then painted it. Took two weekends.
I built some R/C sailboat hulls that way and then sold the final molds to a local club. Fiberglass is relatively cheap, easy to work with, and light. The vacc-forming I do with my shop vac and a vacc-box. A vacuum table is larger, but still easy to make: http://www.tk560.com/vactable4.html
You could even use foam board (it comes in different grades so you can get some that is better for shaping curves with a surfom. I use one for shaping foam for boat hulls and small RTV resin castings for my own plastic models.
I also use balsa sheeting and cores to make hulls and then fiberglass the exterior of the hull for strength and easy water-proofing. Again, it's quick, light, and cheap. And can be then painted anything I want.
For example, this one is made from balsa sheets cut to forms traced on paper, small blocks at the bow to shape the angles, then the whole thing covered with thin balsa glued to the ribs and blocks. Then I fiberglassed the outside, sanded and filled low spots, and then painted it. Took two weekends.
Wow...I figured going that route would be expensive, but didn't think it was quite that steep. Yikes. 
o: I think for that kind of money, I'll learn how to cast and mold the parts by hand...I've got more time than money at this point. Hmmm. Well, guess once I get some time I'll just have to jump in and try a few different methods and see what works.
o: I think for that kind of money, I'll learn how to cast and mold the parts by hand...I've got more time than money at this point. Hmmm. Well, guess once I get some time I'll just have to jump in and try a few different methods and see what works.Patron Zero
SOC-13
Cost-wise, I go back to laser-cut cardstock or similar materials, depending on the weight of such or if it's composed of laminated layers, items produced would have a reasonable 'shelf-life' for playability.
Another advantage to a paper-cardstock item would be the ease of 'redressing' such for different needs in a game. Any refits or renovations would only be restricted by whatever illustration software was available or the quality of color laser printer accessible.
I'm seeing a 'generic' kit for a ship come as a set of blank wall-floor pieces, that allowing for customizing the interiors and exteriors as one wishes. Perhaps a CD might be included with a selection of graphics for detailing said vessel as well as patterns for a few 'cut and fold' items such as basic furniture, ship's systems (drives, powerplants, etc) and stand-up printed figures for crew-passengers.
That sort of kit to cover the basics, a person could add as much or as little detailing as their campaign or players require.
Another advantage to a paper-cardstock item would be the ease of 'redressing' such for different needs in a game. Any refits or renovations would only be restricted by whatever illustration software was available or the quality of color laser printer accessible.
I'm seeing a 'generic' kit for a ship come as a set of blank wall-floor pieces, that allowing for customizing the interiors and exteriors as one wishes. Perhaps a CD might be included with a selection of graphics for detailing said vessel as well as patterns for a few 'cut and fold' items such as basic furniture, ship's systems (drives, powerplants, etc) and stand-up printed figures for crew-passengers.
That sort of kit to cover the basics, a person could add as much or as little detailing as their campaign or players require.
Anyone consider vacuum formed plastic sheeting for the compound curves, wooden sheets for the straight, and then fiberglassing the end result?
<snip>
Took two weekends.
I think this approach would probably work the best, the only real problem being I've no experience with vacc forming or fiberglass. But what I've researched so far says it's doable. Just a couple of questions for you, sabredog, if you don't mind.
1. What kind of plastic sheets do you use? There seems to be quite a variety out there, and some appear to be kind of a pain to work with.
2. How much does a typical sheet of plastic cost?
3. How expensive is fiberglass and resin?
4. Do you think it would work to vacc form the hull in two pieces (top and bottom, depending on the hull shape, of course), and then use a combination of vacc formed and balsa pieces to do the interior details? Admittedly, this is probably more for my own amusement, but it would be cool to have ships with fairly detailed exterior hulls that you could open up.
Any tips would be welcome.
Hmmm...it seems to me that Campaign Cartographer had an addon for doing that kind of thing. I don't know how well it would work for this, but I like the idea.
Plastic sheets: The sizes I use are approx 8"10" and .01" thick. But larger styrene sheets shouldn't cost more than 8 or 9 dollars. It's pretty cheap. You just warm it with a hair dryer and then the shop vac pulls it down over the mold - usually that mold master is made from wood.
Fiberglass: you can get enough to do an entire surfboard for around 25.00 or less depending on the weight of the materials you use. A pint of resin is about 10.00 and fiberglass is around 2.00/ yard. Again, you just shop around. The lighter the fiberglass cloth the cheaper it is. The resin goes a long way, and the fiberglass does too. One layer is sufficient since the thing isn't going to be used as a car fender.
As for vac-forming the hull in two pieces: yup, you could do it, but depending on the size it would be better to use fiberglass for a rigid, strong hull otherwise it might wobble unless you use a heavier ABS type plastic. And that would require at least having the hull made by a professional manufacturer off a form you provide. And that might be expensive. If you are going to go to the trouble of building the form anyway, why not just 'glass it and use it for yourself.
You could still make it out of 'glass and in two halves...or make the roof removable so you could build a complete interior.
Fiberglass: you can get enough to do an entire surfboard for around 25.00 or less depending on the weight of the materials you use. A pint of resin is about 10.00 and fiberglass is around 2.00/ yard. Again, you just shop around. The lighter the fiberglass cloth the cheaper it is. The resin goes a long way, and the fiberglass does too. One layer is sufficient since the thing isn't going to be used as a car fender.
As for vac-forming the hull in two pieces: yup, you could do it, but depending on the size it would be better to use fiberglass for a rigid, strong hull otherwise it might wobble unless you use a heavier ABS type plastic. And that would require at least having the hull made by a professional manufacturer off a form you provide. And that might be expensive. If you are going to go to the trouble of building the form anyway, why not just 'glass it and use it for yourself.
You could still make it out of 'glass and in two halves...or make the roof removable so you could build a complete interior.
Cool, that's kind of what I was hoping to hear...that's a little more in my price range. I guess at this point the only way to go is do some more research and then just jump in and swim. Thanks for the tips, SD. I was just thinking about how best to procede, and maybe starting with some small craft would be the way to go - launch, pinnace, cutter, or something along those lines. Small, fairly easy to form, easy to toss when I screw them up.
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
I haven't done modelling of this type, so I'm just guessing here, but perhaps you could use one of the halogen heaters that have hit the market over the last couple of years as an alternative to a hairdryer, and maybe you could stop your thin vacform from wobbling by adding a layer or two of glass fibre (or plaster, or...) on the inside - it would also produce a more realistic smooth interior surface for the ship.
Actually, my wife has a big stand dryer used for dog grooming that I don't think we're going to use anymore, so I might try that since it puts out a pretty fair bit of heat.
Saberdog, if you're still following this, how much detail will fiberglass pick up? I guess what I mean it, whats about the smallest detail you can make out, or is it good for rough outlines only?
Saberdog, if you're still following this, how much detail will fiberglass pick up? I guess what I mean it, whats about the smallest detail you can make out, or is it good for rough outlines only?
Navanod:
The fiberglass will snuggle down to the shape of the object, but, if you want a lot of details on the thing you'll have to add it after sanding the fibreglass smooth. If you have a lot of fine detail it might round out the hard edges you want to keep, but large parts would be fine.
For example: if you had bay doors or access panels that stood proud of the hull, then the fiberglass ought to show those so long as you are careful to work it into the corners. On the other hand, if you had something covered with "scale" - like the Millenium Falcon, that isn't going to work so well unless you glued all that on the surface of the glassed hull.
On the third hand, the "stronger" and more pronounced the surface detail the better if you want to glass over it. Myself, I would just glass over the basic hull and then attach whatever I wanted on the surface - the point behind the glassing is to add strength and provide a smooth, hard surface.
You can also cut easily through it once cured, so access doors, bay hanger doors, etc., can be added. And 2-part epoxy works for for a durable bond to fiberglass that can also be used to secure bulkheads and other structural bases inside the hull. Heck, I use it for securing shotgun pellets in the keels of racing boats, securing radio gear and reinforcing bulkheads to stiffen the hull/mast step and haven't ever had the epoxy give way under strain.
BTW: If you don't want to use the fiberglass resin (it has really nasty fumes so outside work is required - don't 'glass indoors!) for various reasons, then you can use 2-part epoxy to seal and blend in the fiberglass, too. You work it into the fiberglass the same way, it's not any harder to sand and prime, and no fumes. The down side is that epoxy gets hot as it reacts and cures so you don't want to use it on thermal sensitive surfaces lest it warp them.
The other thing is you'll want some auto body putty to fill any spots where the fiberglass isn't level or smooth after it cures. This is a lot easier and more efficient than adding more resin or epoxy after the stuff cures in order to get that glass-smooth finish.
...and it is all a lot easier then it might sound, just make sure you have plenty of good ventilation, something to catch drips on the floors, and work the resin in good so it soaks through the fiberglass to get a tight, smooth surface. Then let it cure (It usually just takes 24 - 48 hours to fully cure the resins), and check the results by spraying with auto primer (a can of Rustoleum primer costs like 4 bucks and will do a couple of hulls) because that will show imperfections easily. Fill those with auto body putty and sand it all smooth and level. Prime again and paint.
The fiberglass will snuggle down to the shape of the object, but, if you want a lot of details on the thing you'll have to add it after sanding the fibreglass smooth. If you have a lot of fine detail it might round out the hard edges you want to keep, but large parts would be fine.
For example: if you had bay doors or access panels that stood proud of the hull, then the fiberglass ought to show those so long as you are careful to work it into the corners. On the other hand, if you had something covered with "scale" - like the Millenium Falcon, that isn't going to work so well unless you glued all that on the surface of the glassed hull.
On the third hand, the "stronger" and more pronounced the surface detail the better if you want to glass over it. Myself, I would just glass over the basic hull and then attach whatever I wanted on the surface - the point behind the glassing is to add strength and provide a smooth, hard surface.
You can also cut easily through it once cured, so access doors, bay hanger doors, etc., can be added. And 2-part epoxy works for for a durable bond to fiberglass that can also be used to secure bulkheads and other structural bases inside the hull. Heck, I use it for securing shotgun pellets in the keels of racing boats, securing radio gear and reinforcing bulkheads to stiffen the hull/mast step and haven't ever had the epoxy give way under strain.
BTW: If you don't want to use the fiberglass resin (it has really nasty fumes so outside work is required - don't 'glass indoors!) for various reasons, then you can use 2-part epoxy to seal and blend in the fiberglass, too. You work it into the fiberglass the same way, it's not any harder to sand and prime, and no fumes. The down side is that epoxy gets hot as it reacts and cures so you don't want to use it on thermal sensitive surfaces lest it warp them.
The other thing is you'll want some auto body putty to fill any spots where the fiberglass isn't level or smooth after it cures. This is a lot easier and more efficient than adding more resin or epoxy after the stuff cures in order to get that glass-smooth finish.
...and it is all a lot easier then it might sound, just make sure you have plenty of good ventilation, something to catch drips on the floors, and work the resin in good so it soaks through the fiberglass to get a tight, smooth surface. Then let it cure (It usually just takes 24 - 48 hours to fully cure the resins), and check the results by spraying with auto primer (a can of Rustoleum primer costs like 4 bucks and will do a couple of hulls) because that will show imperfections easily. Fill those with auto body putty and sand it all smooth and level. Prime again and paint.
The fiberglass bonds to the surface of whatever you are attaching it to, so the materials you use for the form will determine the finish of the interior unless you 'glass the inside, too. Which can be done without any problems (I've done this to make sailboat hull forms for slush resin molding.) - just one sheet of the fiberglass is all you need to use for any given side so if you use the light weight fabric it will suck down to the interior contours just as easily as the the outside ones.
The thing to remember is to do each side one at a time and let each side fully cure before working on the other so you don't get cracks or deformations as the resin cures and shrinks.
The thing to remember is to do each side one at a time and let each side fully cure before working on the other so you don't get cracks or deformations as the resin cures and shrinks.
Not to derail the thread (too far, anyway) but since we're on the topic of modeling...check out this guys web page - 1:300 scale models of all of the UK naval ships post WWII, plus lots of others... all built from matchsticks and boxes.
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/dio/collection/matchbox-pw/index.htm
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/dio/collection/matchbox-pw/index.htm
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
Wow!
Patron Zero
SOC-13
One other thought might be construction of a model made from different materials, vacu-form for say skinning the exterior as well as interior 'surface' details and foamcore for the 'bones' supporting such.
Mind I champion paper modeling but for a model to survive the 'rigors' of being used for miniatures, something more durable than heavy cardstock or such might be in order.
Mind I champion paper modeling but for a model to survive the 'rigors' of being used for miniatures, something more durable than heavy cardstock or such might be in order.
TheColonel
SOC-9
S-scout
Here is something my good friend made some time ago:
http://www.starshipmodeler.net/contest4/ss_s07.htm
Here is something my good friend made some time ago:
http://www.starshipmodeler.net/contest4/ss_s07.htm
Here's a wiki page with a bunch of links at the bottom that might be useful resources.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_model
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_model
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