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Traveller Theme 1: Proto-Traveller

Note that TNE returned to a pseudo-small ship setting that allowed spinals on any sized ship.

But if you ran the numbers, the spinal-mounted weaponry on those small ships was basically B5 Bay weaponry.

TNE, or specifically the RC, was a small ship setting because it was a limited resource setting. Even the Regency probably wasn't building much big stuff because of the scalar threat of Virus. Why give Virus a big ship for one successful take-over?

TNE's model does bring out some of the options that even early CT was hinting at in one-off examples with unique rules. The resolution of some of these was why I used T4-SSDS while ignoring the rest of T4. It was a process somewhere between CT and HG in complexity, slightly above HG in implied detail, and possessed of defined options that CT and even MT had not spent much time on if they addressed them at all. T20 would follow a similar model for the ship building chapter, and both bring a modular approach to power as a ship design parameter that is a bit deeper than CT HG without being any more complicated.

I can see all of those wrinkled noses now. What place do these later editions have in Proto-Traveller? The answer has several parts.
--Outside of the numbers associated with power usage and the weapon/armor ratings, these two editions do things in displacement tons instead of cubic meters or liters. In that regard they use the language of CT.
--Aside from MT and TNE, ship components are widely interchangeable across editions. Why not adopt parts instead of handwaving or re-inventing the wheel?
--They provide power as a top-to-bottom parameter without drowning in megawatts, output joules, and lens counts, retaining a plug-and-play approach while giving your Engineer a good working foundation for technobabble.
--Nothing forces you to use the big stuff, and T4 SSDS is explicitly a small ship procedure.

To repeat myself from elsewhere: Use the tools; don't let the tools use you.
 
But if you ran the numbers, the spinal-mounted weaponry on those small ships was basically B5 Bay weaponry.

TNE, or specifically the RC, was a small ship setting because it was a limited resource setting. Even the Regency probably wasn't building much big stuff because of the scalar threat of Virus. Why give Virus a big ship for one successful take-over?

There's also the issue of the Square/Cube law making CT/MT style capital ships impossible... not enough space for the required radiators.
 
I also like the Book 2 (and Old Mongoose) drive tables and the Book 2/Book 3 drive TLs rather than the Book 5 (and all later Traveller) ones. This makes ship "mass" (volume technically, but presumably corresponding with mass) matter - the heavier the ship, the harder it is to accelerate it to high speeds or to throw it into distant jumps. Also, Book 3 drive TLs are much more nuanced, as you can have faster ships earlier, though they are much smaller and on the other hand on lower TLs ship size is limited; I prefer this over the linear drive progression introduced by Book 5 (which is now canonical).

Similarly, I have grown to develop a distaste for empty-hex jumps. Without them, your star-map has a certain "topography" and there are places accessible only by high-jump ships, rather than take regular low-jump ships and simply give them more fuel and/or drop tanks.
 
then I rephrase to "arbitrary limits don't sit well on the mind". and I don't mean just my own.

suppose one "hand-waves" j1. well then, why not "hand-wave" j2? "because I don't want to allow it" doesn't work - players seek work-arounds, adventures are written where j2 is some secret soli experiment to be discovered, some secret space weapon artifact is found floating in an oort cloud, etc. so fine, j2. well then, why not "hand-wave" j3? "because I don't want to allow it" doesn't work. so fine, j3, j4, j5, j6.

now in book 5 we arrive at why not j7? well there is no rule against j7, but it can't be done, because using established rules for jump it's impossible to fit j7 components into any given hull. this limitation is not arbitrary, it's simply a natural consequence of the existing rules.
CT'77 limited the drive performance to 1-6 for all drives depending on the size of hull it was put in.
TL allowed you to build certain drives, eg TL9 drives A-G (TL10 is required for a type H drive) and those drives could achieve performance 6 in smaller hull sizes. Oh and there was a rule that you couldn't have drive performance over 6 with these drives...
Point - a TL 9 culture can build ships with jump 1-6 (there was no computer restriction back then either, you just had to be able to run the jump 6 program which takes up 2 spaces)
The OTU setting has adopted the HG derived drive TL paradigm where you don't access higher jump numbers until higher TLs - so there is a rules/setting disconnect right there.
 
CT'77 limited the drive performance to 1-6 for all drives depending on the size of hull it was put in.
TL allowed you to build certain drives, eg TL9 drives A-G (TL10 is required for a type H drive) and those drives could achieve performance 6 in smaller hull sizes. Oh and there was a rule that you couldn't have drive performance over 6 with these drives...
Point - a TL 9 culture can build ships with jump 1-6 (there was no computer restriction back then either, you just had to be able to run the jump 6 program which takes up 2 spaces)
The OTU setting has adopted the HG derived drive TL paradigm where you don't access higher jump numbers until higher TLs - so there is a rules/setting disconnect right there.

CT 81 is similar, but not quite the same.
You have to have a computer model at least as high as the jump, so TL 9 is J3, TL A is J4, TL B is J5, TL C is J6, TL D+ are theoretically higher, but you can't build higher than J6 (and J7 won't fit with fuel and bridge anyway).
Also TL 9 is A-D, TL10 is E-H, 11 is J-K, 12 L-N, 13 P-Q, 14 R-U, 15 V-Z...
 
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There are also hints of a wide array of non-standard components which exist at various places in or near Charted Space. For example, the unique drive design of the ANNIC NOVA...

I don't know what folks are going to think about this, but I thought I'd bring it up.

The original Traveller had very little SF in it.

Basically, the game had:
  • Jump Drive Technology for Interstellar Travel
  • Interstellar Civilizations
  • Interstellar Communication Moves at the Speed of Interstellar Travel
  • Indigenous Life Forms on Countless Worlds
  • Psionics
  • Cold Sleep
  • Grav Vehicles
  • Advanced Drugs
  • Laser Canons
  • Laser Rifles

I discuss this matter more fully here, but basically I believe that the point of not having a lot of SF conceits in the core rules was for the Referee to build or add his or her own SF conceits, taken from SF books and movies as the Referee wished. Both the text of the game and the text on the back of the book made it clear that this was the point of the game's existence...
"Entire games can be patterned after any of the many science-fiction novels available..."

In other words, the SF of original Traveller was "flat" so the Referee could add any SF weirdness or fun he wished, world-to-world or across the subsector. They would find worlds or higher tech, or strange biologies, environments, and so on, that would be exotic and unique and offer strange SF challenges and rewards.

When I first read the Annic Nova adventure, it was a reminder that the PCs would find weird and unexpected things. Shadows would be another example.

I bring this up because if we're going to assume the UWPs are as yet undefined, it might be possible that a lot of the SF assumptions we came to accept for the Spinward Marches no longer hold. One of those assumptions is that the setting is pretty much the same across the stars except for who has a nicer starport.

I bring this up to say there might be more non-standard equipment, a derelict 100,000 ton ship left behind by an alien race for the PCs to explore, alien plants that can symbiotically increase psionic ratings, and so on...

The OTU developed its own, specific SF setting over time. But if we're losing that built out setting by sticking with the early material, one thing that might happen is the Referee is encouraged to add more SF material into the Marches.

Maybe not. But I wanted to bring it up.
 
There is also one ship design that, for the longest time, was only possible to make using the '77 CT starship rules, and by default, a shipbuilding trope that is pure "proto-Traveller".

Power Plants must match the Maneuver Drive number only, making Jump Drives independent of Power Plant, and paving the way for creation of the original the X-Boat.
 
I give you the TL9 jump 6 x-boat
200t hull
jd H 35t
fuel 120t
bridge 20t
#3 com. 3t
3 crew 12t (p, e, m; double occupancy is permitted so you could get away with just two staterooms)
10t do what you want (cargo, mail, low berths)
 
To expand my explanation above, another potential "creep" in later Traveller was (possibly) "Military Creep". Note that the first book has ex-military characters who have clearly mustered out; they might have combat skills, but they are no longer soldiers. Also, note the Book 1 weapon list - all small arms, with the auto-rifle being the toughest gun around. Further, note the ship list - there are some paramilitary ships, even two "cruisers", but they are all small ships that a small PC-owned ship has a certain chance of defeating in combat, especially with missiles.

This is very similar to the Alien, Firefly, or The Expanse premise - characters might be ex-military, but they now work on civilian or at most paramilitary jobs, have a civilian starship (in The Expanse they do acquire a small military ship, but nevertheless not a big warship), and tot small arms. A single Xenomorph is a huge threat to the trader crew who at best have flamethrowers. Gangsters and outlaws with revolvers and shotguns are common foes. A real battleship is something you try to avoid or outsmart, not fire guns at. At most in Book 2 ship terms you can have a mercenary platoon, again armed with small arms for the most part.

Book 4 introduced military-grade weaponry and a big discussion of field artillery and armored warfare. Granted, it is a specific boo for mercenaries, but it did start the military "creep". Add to that huge battleships with all sorts of Naval guns in Book 5, and soon things start escalating into a very militarized outlook which, IMHO, MegaTraveller was the peak of it. It went from Firefly to Babylon 5 (both magnificent sci-fi, IMHO), from Dumarest to Honor Harrington. Especially the later seasons of Babylon 5 where the action often involved (wonderful) space battles between major combatants. There is of course nothing wrong with "Big Military" games - which are enormous fun - but it's very different than the more low-key picaresque adventures of a tiny starship's crew or very small mercenary detachment as depicted by the three first books.

Also note that in Proto-Traveller, you might deal with military themes such as in Kinunir or Chamax/Horde, but you always deal with them as civilians unwittingly caught in military affairs - PCs are never generals or fleet admirals or even the commanders of warships.
 
To expand my explanation above, another potential "creep" in later Traveller was (possibly) "Military Creep"...

Again, I loved this post.

To add on...

Note that in Marc Miller's 1982 essay "Planetary Government in Traveller" found in High Passage #5, he writes:
To understand this, it is important to remember just what purpose the government factor is meant to serve. Traveller players and characters are rarely involved with governments on the international and interplanetary level. That is to say, they do not deal with kings or presidents or heads of state; they deal with individual members of broad government mechanisms, they deal with office holders and employees whose attitudes and actions are shaped by the type of government they serve. As a result, travellers are rarely interested in the upper reaches of government; they want to know what they can expect from the governmental structure at their own level. For example, if a group of travellers were to journey across the United States from coast to coast, they would be interested in the degree of responsiveness they could expect from local governments, in how easy the local court clerk would respond to information requests, or in the degree of difficulty that could be expected in obtaining certain licenses. As they moved through Nebraska, the fact that that state has a unicameral legislature would be of little or no importance.
Emphasis added.

And in this Q&A with Joe Fugate of DGP that took place on this site in 2004, he said this:
Q: In retrospect, do you think the DGP products might have covered the OTU in a bit too much detail – leaving less for the imagination?

A Yes.

I think less detail probably would have been better. I think it would have been better to focus on a few star systems per adventure and detail them, and leave the Imperium star system positions, etc, somewhat more vague for the most part.

Provide a detailed sector once in a blue moon.

Personally, I think Traveller is designed backwards in this regard, a topic we often discussed at DGP.

Wargames are by nature, map oriented, and tend to be more sweeping in scale. Rarely do you see wargames that get down to hand-to-hand combat level. It’s most often battalions or divisions, sometimes down to companies and platoons.

But role playing games are about individual characters and what matters to them. Thats one big reason why fantasy gaming is so popular. Fantasy gaming doesn’t focus on detailing half of the known universe. Just what matters to a few characters.

So Traveller was designed with this star-spanning map mentality, not character-centric. But that’s all backwards. As a role-playing game, it should be designed from the character out. The farther you get from the character, the less detail you should be concerned with.

It’s not surprising that Traveller would have this orientation, since GDW was first a wargamming design company, and a huge-scale wargamming design company at that. Look at their Europa game series. Massive in scale and scope.

While the wargammer in me really identifies with this orientation in Traveller, I don’t think it is condusive to popular opinion in the RPG market and has somewhat “doomed” Traveller to remain a niche game.

And I’m not sure there’s much you can do about this perception now. What’s done is done. For a science-fiction role playing game to be more popular, it needs to be character-centric through and through, with rich world detail and and motivation that keeps you there for a while so you get to know it and it’s people. The galaxy spanning star charts and constant system hopping part should remain very much in the background, because that’s not role-playing, that’s wargamming.

Notice that he is discussing "creep" in the Traveller setting, exactly as Golan is.

Regardless of the merits of any given board game as a board game, once you tie board games into an RPG like Traveller, you must, by definition, start broadening the concerns of the setting far beyond the typical concerns of an RPG.

An RPG works at the scale of the PC -- what the PC sees, hears, experiences, deals with. The concerns are the concerns of what the PCs are concerned about, with enough influence coming into play from "off screen" to keep the lives interesting. (Some will immediately read the preceding sentence as if I'm saying such off screen influences should be allowed to be chaotic, indifferent to logic or precedent. I'm not. Sit back down.)

In the 1977 edition of the game, the text states, "Initially, one or two sub-sectors should be quite enough for years of adventure (each sub-sector has, on the average, 40 worlds)..."

This is most likely true! A group of adventures in a Jump 1 ship of weekly play is going to take a while to burn through 80 worlds. Assuming only one week per world, that's still a year and a half of play. Introduce any worlds on trade routes that are worth visiting more than once (and shouldn't some of them be that interesting?), build up relationships with NPCs and local politics, and several worlds will be worth weeks of play unto themselves. And, of course, some adventures will take more than one week to play out upon a planet.

And so, yes... one or two subsectors would be enough to keep a regularly gaming group going on a weekly basis for quit a while. That is a scale that make sense for RPG play... and easy enough to expand when needed with the addition of another subsector.

But what happens when the setting needs to split focus with the concerns of Board Games?

A series of board game about interstellar war will need many fronts to keep the games interesting. They will need large scale fleets to make the game engaging for players. It will help to have many polities of one kind or another to develop different themes.

The scale will expand. Boardgames will produce maps showing the full scale of the political situation. Suddenly there will be a need for justifying those large fleets, paying for them, and so on. A history is required, revealing shifting borders, past conflicts, and prizes worthy of strategic effort.

The focus shifts (or, as Golan puts it, "creeps.")

We're no longer trying to build content to engage a group of men and women in a Far Trader hustling under gun fire to secure goods for a patron at the edges of civilization. The early issues of the JTAS ("Starship: Annic Nova"; "Rescue on Ruie"; "Victoria"; "The Ship in the Lake"; "Asteroid Mining"; "Planetoid P-4638") focus on this kind of content, feeding a Referee information and inspiration for his own PC focused campaigns.

But in JTAS Issue #4, we get "Emperors of the Third Imperium" -- four pages of content devoted to a quick overview and history of the Third Imperium and the men and women who ruled it, all but two of them having died before the PCs were even born.

"It's needed background!" some might say. And certainly for some, depending on the kind of game they are running, it might be wonderful color to add.

But let's look back at Miller's quote from above: In his estimation the PCs will rarely be dealing with the upper reaches of planetary government. Given that, how removed is the Emperor? Especially dead emperors going back centuries.

Again, this kind of content makes perfect sense once the scale and the requirement for the scale expand to the needs of interestallar conflicts and naval engagements. But it begins, as Golan notes, to distort the content and the concerns of the published material, shifting it from RPG/PC focus (Golan's post enumerates the elements of this focus), toward the concerns of Trillion Credit Squadron and Striker.

Not that there's anything wrong with this. If this is what people want, awesome!

But not everyone does want this. And that's where the shift happens. And why people harken back to Proto-Traveller and the kind of play it promised: A focus on individuals (the PCs and the NPCs), small arms conflicts, small ship conflicts, a focus on adventures that a small band with military skills can handle, and so on.

All those elements of politics and star spanning conflicts can certainly come into play in a Proto-Traveller game. But they enter the game at the scale that they influence and affect the PCs. They come into play at the specific and human level of the adventurers.
 
Also, you should keep in mind the inspirational "source material" for Proto-Traveller, that is the science fiction stories it was inspired by. They usually had a picaresque element to them - usually the protagonist, such as Dumarest, travelled the stars and ended up in all sorts of weird and cool situations. The focus was far less on large-scale setting construction and more about exotic and interesting locales to explore.

The Tales to Astound blog has some interesting and highly educational articles about this.
 
Also, you should keep in mind the inspirational "source material" for Proto-Traveller, that is the science fiction stories it was inspired by. They usually had a picaresque element to them - usually the protagonist, such as Dumarest, travelled the stars and ended up in all sorts of weird and cool situations. The focus was far less on large-scale setting construction and more about exotic and interesting locales to explore.

Now, it's important to keep in mind that Traveller -- both the game and the setting as it grew -- changed over time (as Aramis has pointed out).

It became a mix of RPG, board games, and miniatures games. Focusing on canon became kind of its own hobby, with people trying to work out the Third Imperium and find consensus.

None of the things here that it became are wrong. They're just different than the RPG/PC-focused game of original Traveller and the early materials. And since this thread is about that kind of play, it's worth making the distinction.
 
Due to threads like this I have been skimming the differences between 77 and 81 revised LBB1-3
LBB1 - character injury rather than death during character generation now an option, some skills slightly reworded, scouts get two skills per term (should this apply to other too?), weapons no longer have damage DMs instead they roll whole dice
LBB2 - jump drives now only use 10% hull per parsec jumped rather than the full fuel load regardless of jump distance (the HG1 jump governor became a standard part of the jump drive in HG2 and disappeared as a separate component, the revised edition does the same), power plant is now needed to power the jump drive and must now be at least equal in letter to the jump or maneuver drive, whichever tis higher (this has a knock on affect of requiring more power plant fuel too - power plant fuel formula remains broken), computer must now be at least equal to jump drive number, drive table has received some changes, jump capable missiles have been removed, ship combat has gone metric, changes to ship damage tables
LBB3 - no more trade lane table, travel zones are now a thing...

Now some of these changes I think are for the better (the LBB1 ones) but the changes to LBB2 are mixed and are tying the rules up with the setting changes to a limited extent. The removal of the trade lanes table and instead reference to communication routes plus the travel zones loosely ties the rules to the setting once again. I think the revised rules, and certainly the Traveller Book version, are moving away from 'make your own setting' to 'play in our setting'. By MT the rules and setting were totally mashed together. You could use the MT rules for anything you liked, but the setting was mentioned on just about every page ;)
 
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Now, it's important to keep in mind that Traveller -- both the game and the setting as it grew -- changed over time (as Aramis has pointed out).
This change is *exactly* what I wrote about when I spoke of "creeps". Change was gradual, and not always intentional. 3-Book Classic Traveller, full-scale Classic Traveller, Mega Traveller, TNE, T4, Mongoose Traveller*, probably also T5 (which I didn't buy yet) - they are all excellent games. But The changes between them are significant.

It became a mix of RPG, board games, and miniatures games. Focusing on canon became kind of its own hobby, with people trying to work out the Third Imperium and find consensus.
Exactly. I do love the OTU myself, and especially the setting projected from the old Dark Nebula boardgame... I also like TNE and TNE:1248.

None of the things here that it became are wrong. They're just different than the RPG/PC-focused game of original Traveller and the early materials. And since this thread is about that kind of play, it's worth making the distinction.
None are wrong! Never said that they were. But the most basic assumptions grew to be quite different. That is my point.

Thematically, in terms of inspiration, Traveller changed from Dumarest to Foundation/Empire and Dune. All of these are great. But they are different.
 
It became a mix of RPG, board games, and miniatures games. Focusing on canon became kind of its own hobby, with people trying to work out the Third Imperium and find consensus.

None of the things here that it became are wrong. They're just different than the RPG/PC-focused game of original Traveller and the early materials. And since this thread is about that kind of play, it's worth making the distinction.

Except that the boardgames were there from the start, providing context and avenues of description not really appropriate to an RPG. RPGs in general emerged from board and miniatures gaming and GDW was no different. The loss of the boardgames over time and editions, made total with the closing of GDW, fundamentally changed Traveller and its fanbase.

The old crowd speak fondly of nail-biting games of Imperium or Invasion Earth or Fifth Frontier War, or even Dark Nebula. Every edition since T4 has had a critique of its combat system that has started from a comparison with Snapshop and AHL. Mongoose's ship combat is a strange beast because it expressly avoids being "boardgame-y". I've even heard glowing approval of Battle Rider. The CT "Experience" is inseparable from Mayday, Snapshot, and Striker for many older players, and CT is changed by their absence.
 
Due to threads like this I have been skimming the differences between 77 and 81 revised LBB1-3
LBB1 - character injury rather than death during character generation now an option, some skills slightly reworded, scouts get two skills per term (should this apply to other too?), weapons no longer have damage DMs instead they roll whole dice
LBB2 - jump drives now only use 10% hull per parsec jumped rather than the full fuel load regardless of jump distance (the HG1 jump governor became a standard part of the jump drive in HG2 and disappeared as a separate component, the revised edition does the same), power plant is now needed to power the jump drive and must now be at least equal in letter to the jump or maneuver drive, whichever tis higher (this has a knock on affect of requiring more power plant fuel too - power plant fuel formula remains broken), computer must now be at least equal to jump drive number, drive table has received some changes, jump capable missiles have been removed, ship combat has gone metric, changes to ship damage tables
LBB3 - no more trade lane table, travel zones are now a thing...

Now some of these changes I think are for the better (the LBB1 ones) but the changes to LBB2 are mixed and are tying the rules up with the setting changes to a limited extent. The removal of the trade lanes table and instead reference to communication routes plus the travel zones loosely ties the rules to the setting once again. I think the revised rules, and certainly the Traveller Book version, are moving away from 'make your own setting' to 'play in our setting'. By MT the rules and setting were totally mashed together. You could use the MT rules for anything you liked, but the setting was mentioned on just about every page ;)

For what I think is a pretty complete treatment of the differences between 1977 and 1981 (plus The Traveller Book and Starter Traveller), see my efforts here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jsH-EgKvaR0mdbtJMj_Xj7X3TcYyZTqQGf-Gwu58PX0/edit?usp=sharing
 
I also like the Book 2 (and Old Mongoose) drive tables and the Book 2/Book 3 drive TLs rather than the Book 5 (and all later Traveller) ones. This makes ship "mass" (volume technically, but presumably corresponding with mass) matter - the heavier the ship, the harder it is to accelerate it to high speeds or to throw it into distant jumps. Also, Book 3 drive TLs are much more nuanced, as you can have faster ships earlier, though they are much smaller and on the other hand on lower TLs ship size is limited; I prefer this over the linear drive progression introduced by Book 5 (which is now canonical).

I agree. And (as an aside) it probably explains why DGP noted that the Vilani of the First Imperium had a "faulty theory of jump drive", that did not allow them to produce drives greater than J-2 performance (if they were using the CT '77 / CT '81 ruleset as their basis for MT); otherwise, the Vilani should easily have been able to make J-4 by TL11 under CT '77 / CT '81 , which would break the canon-history of the Interstellar Wars period.
 
Also, in true Proto-Traveller (CT '77), all Nobles were Planetary Nobles rather than interstellar Nobles.

Knights thru Dukes were all on-world local noblility. The ranks of Prince/King/Emperor were specifically noted as Soc=16, governing entire worlds or multi-world polities.
 
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