traveller too complex

[wa11eye]

As i read the posts i realize that people make traveller too complex for most players. I would venture a guess that many people are intimated by the details of the game and one has to explain why and how things work. In Dungens and Dragons if one is not shure it must me magic. I for one just let some thing go and let my players explain why and how thing work and thats then how they work. Could some people who are having trouble finding players be asking too much of them. I know my group just want to have fun and just get away form complex things of the real world. The less they need to know the better.

Any thought on this. Wa11eye

 

[ACK!!]

Very much so wa11eye. But I think ref's can go overboard and over-whelm the newb.

Keep it simple.

For the rules:

Player's Rules Page

For the background of the mileu in general:

Foundation Description

I usually provide a lot more stuff but in general those links are all they need to get the idea.

 

[Elliot]

Yes I agree

...but the Traveller discussed on these boards is often very different from the Traveller that is actually played as a game - I mean we all have a pet theories and expertise to bring but when you have a group of players sitting around a table chomping nachos the whole thing becomes easy.

The moral of the story is - play the damn thing people!!!

 

[mike wightman]

How things work is not needed for the game session unless it is an intrinsic part of the scenario.
Remember, the characters in the game accept the High Tech wonders the way we accept cell phones, microwave ovens, and TVs. You don't have to know how they work, just how to use them
If the players want a more of an in depth explanation of the technology do it outside of the gaming session.
Never, ever waste gaming time arguing how the Tech works, the referee's word is final (even when they're wrong

).

 

[kaladorn]

Well, I agree with your sentiment about 'once a ref has a ruling, go with it, argue later offline'.

OTOH, I must have different players Sigg, they like to know how things work, as it shapes their perceptions, their actions, etc. They concern themselves with things like a cohesive economic model, a historical and geopolitical reality that makes sense, weapons and tactics that don't too badly abuse the laws of physics and common sense, etc.

And in the real world, most of them know how cell phones, microwaves, and TVs work - some of us could build all three. And others can field strip or repair most modern firearms a normal man can carry. And others have expertise in law, naval operations, space surveillance and ballistic early warning, computer software and hardware, internet and client-server software, etc.

So the game has a high demand to conform to some sort of internally consistent and sensible approaches. They can be sci-fi, but consistency at least is required, and the less 'space opera', the more everyone likes things.

 

[jatay3]

Actually I like it better this way-it doesn't seem "real" unless it's complex. On the other hand I just read it rather than play it.

 

[mike wightman]

Some of the people I've gamed with over the years couldn't explain how a light bulb works, let alone a magnetron
The players who have most enjoyed Traveller in my experience have always been from a science type background and to them the background and explanations are everything.
Being from the UK most have no access to firearms (thank heavens).
Another example, Firefly. Some saw it and thought "Traveller", and yet very little technology has been explained. Other thought "rubbish, cowboys in space. They don't even explain how the technology works".
You don't have to explain the tech to newbies, their characters can use it and the explanations can come later. Get them involved in the game first, then come the late night, alcohol fueled discussions about how thrusters work, what is jump fuel for, how do meson guns work etc...

 

[DaveChase]

In my college days, I ran a Sci Fi rpg and had people from all walks playing. What I did was spend time with the players helping them create a character.
I would have them bring stories, pictures (Epic, Heavy Metal, Comic books, graphic novels) or movie ideas with them. I would even have a stack of various Sci Fi type material handy. Then the basic questions I would ask:
What do you want to do in the future?
What kind of items/gadget/vehicles do you want?

Then we would go from there. I would not grant everything that they wanted but explained that it was a big universe and I would make sure that they had some clues/direction to get where they wanted.
Some times an entire adventure would start from someone deciding they wanted something. I remember once a female who was not much into role playing decided that she wanted a pet (she just lost her cat of after 9 years). The group started asking her what kind she wanted. She did not know, so they all went window/catalog shopping (pulled out all the Epic's, Heavy Metals and movie reference we had laying around). She found an alien that looked interesting. So off on to an adventure that took 5 weeks of gaming to accomplish (about 6 hours a week).

The point behind this is everyone has dreams/imagination. We should not get bogged down on the dice rolls, charts and rules. We should instead take someone's dream/idea and run with it. Now, it make take some planning ahead to make the adventure worth while but if you know the rules/system and you know your players, you should be able to keep them challenged with out much work.

Look at various TV shows and movies. Star Trek had transporters and in the beginning no one cared how they worked. As time went on some did, so then they had to make up more details about it.

Many movies that we enjoy, we do not worry about all the details of how something works but that it works to make the story interesting/move forward/become a goal.

In my game when someone wanted to learn/create/tear apart something we made that the side adventure for that character. Of course they could set that character aside for a time (usually min of 8 weeks 'real world' with out playing it) to learn the new something. I find that most players are not willing to part with their character that long to get that knowledge/skill so they suffer/work on it during the adventure(s) while still traveling with the group. Then it takes them 4 months 'real world time' or so to learn the something and it was more fun because of all the opportunities it created in the adventure.

(Most stop writing so much in one sitting.

Dave

 

[Straybow]

"Being from the UK most have no access to firearms (thank heavens)."

You worried they might hurt themselves, or you?

The problems in any Scifi setting are always "canon." Somebody says something, and maybe it was thought out a little bit or not at all. Now some wise-arse wants to know what-happens-if, and someone's gotta make up a vaguely logical result based on a vaguely logical mechanism/process. Nobody wants to say, "I guess that first idea sucks, let's change it."

Scifi settings require many more coherent explanations than swords and sorcery. Characters traveling on horseback may go 20-30 miles a day. No explanations necessary. Characters jumping from here to alph cen, everything has to be defined and explained (how long, how expensive, how difficult).

 

[mike wightman]

The safest place to be would be the target

Back to the topic. Traveller canon suffers inconsistencies and contradictions as a result of being the work of several different authors, IMHO. OK, MWM may give his authority to something, such as the DGP imaging of nearly everything in CT and MT,for example, or the whole of the T4 game line, but without his personal input many things sneak into being which cause problems.

 

[savage]

Straybow and Sigg,

Well said!

Having fun is the most important elements without it all the canon and rules just don't matter.

There appear to be four levels of canon:
1. MWM, FF, GDW its not just a good idea its the law,
2. 3rd party products "in favor",
3. 3rd party products "out of favor", or
4. Home Rules

None, of this will ever change. So we might as well push to make it easy on new players. I have a couple and its important to add only the complexity level necesary. We've changed a couple things but otherwise everyone is having fun.

This is why I've been saying "Traveller it tough on Refs". At least, now we have a couple ref tools, created by other refs. If all this diversified effort went into a couple systems (instead of 6) it would be an easy, kick butt game.

But I don't think the MT/TNE/T4 refs on yahoo groups are going to be convinced of that.

If anyone does a T20 FFS it should come with vehicle, ship, weapon construction software.
A player handbook should come with a pc/npc development package and World Builder should
work with heaven and earth version or universe.

Actually I'd rather see a few official products from Marc to shore up the science...FFS. Does
anyone have T4 FFS v2? does it help at all vs TNE FFS.

Savage

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Savage,

I have TNE FFS 1st & 2nd printing and T4 FFS. My opinion is that TNE FFS, either printing, gives the designer a better picture of the hardware by the descriptions provided with each section. The downside is that if you need to find a formula or table you have remember the page number. T4, regardless of erratum, has the figures, formulas and tables listed at the end of the book. The downside is that the formulas and tables are page referenced, which requires you to flip through the various section to find the write-up. One item that I like about T4 is that there is a figure that shows the various hull designs.

I would recommend, at least at the moment, getting TNE FFS if you are into designing. If you can find T4 use that for reference. Ultimately, the individual decides which design system to use.

Tom Rux

Originally posted by Savage:
Straybow and Sigg,

Well said!

Having fun is the most important elements without it all the canon and rules just don't matter.

There appear to be four levels of canon:
1. MWM, FF, GDW its not just a good idea its the law,
2. 3rd party products "in favor",
3. 3rd party products "out of favor", or
4. Home Rules

None, of this will ever change. So we might as well push to make it easy on new players. I have a couple and its important to add only the complexity level necesary. We've changed a couple things but otherwise everyone is having fun.

This is why I've been saying "Traveller it tough on Refs". At least, now we have a couple ref tools, created by other refs. If all this diversified effort went into a couple systems (instead of 6) it would be an easy, kick butt game.

But I don't think the MT/TNE/T4 refs on yahoo groups are going to be convinced of that.

If anyone does a T20 FFS it should come with vehicle, ship, weapon construction software.
A player handbook should come with a pc/npc development package and World Builder should
work with heaven and earth version or universe.

Actually I'd rather see a few official products from Marc to shore up the science...FFS. Does
anyone have T4 FFS v2? does it help at all vs TNE FFS.

Savage

 

[Anthony]

T4 FFS, if you can understand what the heck it's talking about, has more 'correct' equations than TNE FFS. Unfortunately, the negatives of T4 FFS include terrible typesetting, terrible editing, and zero explanation of the rules.

I would actually say 'read TNE FF&S first, as it will make it possible to understand T4 FF&S, but the T4 design rules are superior once you understand them'.

 

[MrMorden]

MOST roleplaying games are unnecessarily complex. D&D had gotten insane.

Many years ago, my friends and I decided we were tired of learning a new game system every time we changed settings. So we wrote our own generic system based on percentiles, which everybody understands. There are no classes; you get a fixed number of attribute points and distribute them as you like. Pick high dex and take a lot of weapons skills, and you're a gunfighter. But you're not restricted to that; as you gain experience you can put skill points wherever you want. Want to play a gunfighter/xenobiologist? Go for it.

Our system works for any game, we just adapt the source material & scenarios to work with our system. We have ways to deal with magic, psionics, whatever.

GURPS takes a similar stance, but their system is a bit cumbersome. I think it's more important to play in the spirit of the game as designed, than it is to use a particular game system.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

INMNSHO, The later incarnations of Traveller (with the exeption of T20) were so complex that the idea of walking neophyte players through it became impossible (aside from my beefs with the "canon" background) to all but the most dedicated RPGers. With CT, you could make a guy in like 10 minutes... way to do it! These games should be driven by the Characters and the Refs, not by convoluted rule systems... I enjoy a high level of detail in my games, yes, but this must be tempered with a regard to players, who are not all Robert Goddards, nor should they be...

its the difference between a game that is fun to play and one that is akin to getting a Master's Degree. It is supposed to be entertaining after all...

 

[Vargas]

Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran von Gushiddan:
INMNSHO, The later incarnations of Traveller (with the exeption of T20) were so complex that the idea of walking neophyte players through it became impossible (aside from my beefs with the "canon" background) to all but the most dedicated RPGers. With CT, you could make a guy in like 10 minutes... way to do it! These games should be driven by the Characters and the Refs, not by convoluted rule systems... I enjoy a high level of detail in my games, yes, but this must be tempered with a regard to players, who are not all Robert Goddards, nor should they be...

its the difference between a game that is fun to play and one that is akin to getting a Master's Degree. It is supposed to be entertaining after all...

And people ask why CT is still used, this summed it up pretty handily.

 

[wa11eye]

could some of the complexitys of the game and posts be a reason why there are a large % of members are not posting. I find it hard of follow some of the answers, and to hard to use or care to use.
once again I new to travler and running the game as i see fit but hope to add items of info to the game.
wa11eye

 

[ACK!!]

Originally posted by wa11eye:
could some of the complexitys of the game and posts be a reason why there are a large % of members are not posting. I find it hard of follow some of the answers, and to hard to use or care to use.
once again I new to travler and running the game as i see fit but hope to add items of info to the game.
wa11eye

There a lot more people posting than before T20 I think but I took a big break for awhile so its hard to tell.

As I tell my players the toughest thing about Traveller is actually getting the character created since its a lifepath based chargen.

T5 is taking care of that.

The rest is pretty damn easy in my opinion especially for a players.

There are no saving throws and extra charts and piles of D&D style nonsense.

Everything is a task. Whether you play MT, TNE, T4 or even CT though they did not call it that.

Throw a short bit from Marc Miller's Foundation document at them from here and talk them down from the character creation part and go.

I guess I am lucky with MT since there are two different very nice programs for chargen available.

I also think I am lucky in the sense I never had a group of players that wanted to argue the physics and science of the game. If you are talking about that kind of complexity, then you are going to hit that with any science fiction game.

 

[kaladorn]

Well, FWIW, my players think CT chargen sucks. They much prefer MT expanded careers for the detail it gives the character (and the broader skill base). They find this helps them get 'into' character and the metagame to create a PC and navigate careers and whatnot is a lot of the formulation of the game for them.

Once we get started, I can't see how anyone can say that MT is any more complex (in terms of normal adventuring with just the task system) than CT. CT had a bunch of rolls for different skills and odd modifiers for weapons combat and odd modifiers for some situations for skills. MT had a nice clean task system and I have often run MT sessions with 2d6, my refs screen, and that's it. No books, no charts, no tables.

MT also has MTCG avialable (and it works pretty well) as a character generator.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Perhaps it is clean, after adjusting for all the errata... the vehicles and ships system is as clean and clear as a pile of bricks, IMO.

As to the task system, when you need to assingn a UTP to everything short of wiping ones bum bum, the point seems to be missed... how is that different from "Ok, Clem, you grab the rope, make a Dex throw at -2 to swing to the other side of the chasm" attaching goofy names to a task does not make it a smoother system... one of the many reasons why I jumped in a low berth and shut the lid after buying that mess... to awake many years later to T20, and CT reprints...

Still, it does have its merits, Its a great resource, even tho I personally detest the Rebellion, and all it has "accomplished" for the game...

Besides, is t5 even coming out? I doesn't look like it... Isn't Mr. Miller in semi-retirement?

The MT Chargen isn't THAT more advanced than in CT, the skills are the same, basically, and it flows along lines that Mercenary set down in the old days... far more important is what is done with the end result, the Character, as it should be...