Traveller warships are WWII navy, but without a major piece

[Dagrill]

In the US we now have that issue. Our manufacturing capacity has shut down and moved overseas. It would take years to rebuild the infrastructure and train capable workers. (Our H1B immigration program provides us with the needed professionals we can no longer educate and train domestically.)

It isn't so simple as to say "If we need it, it will be there."

Hi,

strongly disagree, my nephew started work at my brother in laws engineering
company in September and is already producing work of a standard of other employees. The company has a 41 hour week, you could easily increase output 2.5 times by doubling shifts and working weekends.

I feel if you have the technology, resources, population and the basic infrastructure you can produce the plant (and human resources) necessary to build all the starships you need.

Kind Regards

David

 

[HG_B]

This is one of many objections I have for the "J4 rule". It produces ridiculous ships and serves only to make running a battle at a CON easier. (The reason I believe it was introduced [that and the pilot limit]).

When trying to figure out what would beat what, you need to throw out all "rules" that aren't actual ship building mechanics. That includes insane combat rules that consider space to be 2 dimensional, etc.

 

[Vladika]

When trying to figure out what would beat what, you need to throw out all "rules" that aren't actual ship building mechanics. That includes insane combat rules that consider space to be 2 dimensional, etc.

Agreed in full, though I'm not sure how to go to 3D and have a workable game (maps, etc.). Any ideas?

Also breaking off combat advantage to the highest agility? lol MD6 Ag0 ship "chased" by a MD4 Ag4? Can't even catch it in the first place!

Also the rules for number of turrets in HG. However many you can man and power up would make more sense for warships, particularly the smaller ones. I can see maximums for bays since they are basically "open" and that could conceivably become a structural issue.

Also why not "shotgun" Spinal mounts? If they are parallel, and laid along the Spine, why not? Not saying I would, but why not the option? (Duel Meson & Particle, power for one OR the other in a turn, or build a bigger Power Plant for BOTH and have at it.)

 

[mike wightman]

Agility in HG2 is a measure of how much power is going to the m-drive and hence its rating, think of it as effective manoeuvre drive rating.

A m-6, pp-6 ship has an agility of 6.

Add some weapons an screens and you either need to increase pp size to maintain agility or your agility drops, which means you can't fully power your m-drive. Another option is to reduce m-rive in the first place.

In HG2 a m-6 agility 0 ship has no energy going to the drive and hence is not moving, it can be outmanoeuvred by a m-1 agility-1 ship because the latter can actually move

Emergency agility - used for breaking off - means all power to the engines; screens and energy using weapons can not be used.

So our m-6, pp-6 agility 4 ship would have an emergency agility for breaking off of 6, but only 4 for combat.

Many of the design restrictions for HG2 are due to the USP format. Use an extended USP format an such restrictions go away and you can have more than one spinal mount, mix spinal mount types, have bay weapons of the same type as the spine, have missile bays and missile turrets - that sort of thing (I have house rule variants covering all this).

 

[HG_B]

Agreed in full, though I'm not sure how to go to 3D and have a workable game (maps, etc.). Any ideas?

Considering that you are just trying to move towards or away, it really isn't that hard. I'm talking about not being able to block by forming a line. It isn't hard to visualize. Just know that it is 3D and you can't stop anyone unless you go "man to man" defense. And then only if you are going to ram. Also, you aren't going to board a ship with a working M-drive. A two axis spin will prevent a boarding party nicely.

Also breaking off combat advantage to the highest agility? lol MD6 Ag0 ship "chased" by a MD4 Ag4? Can't even catch it in the first place!

Right. Agility as written is useless.

Also the rules for number of turrets in HG. However many you can man and power up would make more sense for warships, particularly the smaller ones. I can see maximums for bays since they are basically "open" and that could conceivably become a structural issue.

I agree. Also, the "open" bay thing is also beyond stupid. Bays should be just larger weapons. Turrets are like 5" and bays are your 12" guns. That paradigm.

Also why not "shotgun" Spinal mounts? If they are parallel, and laid along the Spine, why not? Not saying I would, but why not the option? (Duel Meson & Particle, power for one OR the other in a turn, or build a bigger Power Plant for BOTH and have at it.)

If you have the power & tonnage available, why not?

 

[Vladika]

Agility in HG2 is a measure of how much power is going to the m-drive and hence its rating, think of it as effective manoeuvre drive rating.

A m-6, pp-6 ship has an agility of 6.

Add some weapons an screens and you either need to increase pp size to maintain agility or your agility drops, which means you can't fully power your m-drive. Another option is to reduce m-rive in the first place.

It's not the maneuver drives that you can't power, it's the weapons or other systems. All power goes first to M Drives, THEN to weapons (if any remains).

In HG2 a m-6 agility 0 ship has no energy going to the drive and hence is not moving, it can be outmanoeuvred by a m-1 agility-1 ship because the latter can actually move

I believe you are incorrect here. In CT/HG you can have an agility zero ship and still maneuver. The extra power, over and above ship and weapon needs, allow an Agility bonus for combat, not effecting any other maneuvering.

Agility is computed from unused energy points
using the formula A=E/0.01M.

HG p36

See also small craft examples on p 35. The launch and the ships boat have agility 0 but still maneuver

Agility: Energy points remaining after weapons, screens, and computers have
been installed may be applied toward the ship's agility rating. Divide the remaining
energy points by 0.01 M; the result is the number of agility points the ship has.
Drop all fractional points. Agility is the ability of a ship to make violent maneuvers
and take evasive action while engaging hostile targets. A ship's agility rating may
never exceed its maneuver drive rating. For each power plant hit received in combat
(cumulative) the ship's agility rating is reduced by one.

HG p28

See the example of the Battle Cruiser Kinunir p52 Ship is M4, Ag 1

 

[HG_B]

Agility in HG2 is a measure of how much power is going to the m-drive and hence its rating, think of it as effective manoeuvre drive rating.

COMPLETELY incorrect. A ship with an M-6 drive with ZERO agility STILL accelerate at 58.8 meters/sec/sec. A ship with agility 6 and M-drive of 5 can NEVER catch it.

 

[McPerth]

COMPLETELY incorrect. A ship with an M-6 drive with ZERO agility STILL accelerate at 58.8 meters/sec/sec. A ship with agility 6 and M-drive of 5 can NEVER catch it.

I fully agree with you, but pursuit rules in CT:HG s(page 41)ays otherwise. THe ship with MD 6 and Ag 0 could not break off from the ship with MD 5 Ag 6, unless emergency agility is used.

Similarly, the MD 5 Ag 6 ship could easily breack off from the ship with MD 6 Ag 0, unless it uses emergency agility, but it has to forfeit the use of any energy weapon to do so...

 

[HG_B]

I fully agree with you, but pursuit rules in CT:HG s(page 41)ays otherwise. THe ship with MD 6 and Ag 0 could not break off from the ship with MD 5 Ag 6, unless emergency agility is used.

I know. My suggestion was to jettison all such rules that are insane and completely wrong.

 

[Vladika]

unless it uses emergency agility, but it has to forfeit the use of any energy weapon to do so...

The "New Errata" rules forbid ANY weapons use while utilizing emergency agility. As stated, this was to forbid the building of missile ships that otherwise had to rely on using emergency agility at all times in combat.

 

[mike wightman]

COMPLETELY incorrect. A ship with an M-6 drive with ZERO agility STILL accelerate at 58.8 meters/sec/sec. A ship with agility 6 and M-drive of 5 can NEVER catch it.

No, it doesn't because the manoeuvre drive isn't being powered if it has zero agility.

You are completely, totally and utterly wrong.

Go and carefully re-read the definition of agility in HG2 - and try to do it with an open mind and without prejudice.

 

[Vladika]

No, it doesn't because the manoeuvre drive isn't being powered if it has zero agility.

You are completely, totally and utterly wrong.

Mike, please reread HG. I posted quotes and examples further back in this thread. #206 at 01:41 PM

 

[mike wightman]

It's not the maneuver drives that you can't power, it's the weapons or other systems. All power goes first to M Drives, THEN to weapons (if any remains).

Not according to HG p28, you power your weapons, screens and computer then calculate agility from EPs remaining.

Also on page 28 it states that Eps are used for four purposes - "powering weapons, shields, for manoeuvre drives (for agility), and for computers."

Agility is defined as "the ability of a ship to make violent manoeuvres and take evasive action while engaging hostile targets".
Note the word engaging, i.e. using screens and weapons (more on this in a bit).

I believe you are incorrect here. In CT/HG you can have an agility zero ship and still maneuver. The extra power, over and above ship and weapon needs, allow an Agility bonus for combat, not effecting any other maneuvering.

This is the contentious bit - an agility 0 ship has no ability to "make violent manoeuvres" etc.

See also small craft examples on p 35. The launch and the ships boat have agility 0 but still maneuver

The USP is for use during combat, the ship's boat can not manoeuvre and fire its weapon because it is underpowered - a problem with a lot of the grandfathered designs. The launch data block is just plain wrong, reverse engineer it an you will see what I mean. It should have 0.51EP an an agility of 3.

See the example of the Battle Cruiser Kinunir p52 Ship is M4, Ag 1

Again, combat performance powering weapons and screens and underpowered - a result of it being designed under HG1 which didn't use EPs or have pp larger than 6.

 

[mike wightman]

Mike, please reread HG. I posted quotes and examples further back in this thread. #206 at 01:41 PM

I've read HG2 so many times over the last 32 years... read my last post and go re-read HG2, you may just have an "oh" moment

 

[atpollard]

I thought that Agility was the ability to change heading (turn in common language) and Maneuver was the linear acceleration.

Making a M 6, Agil 0 ship something like a dragster ... fast in a straight line but poor around the corners.

And a M 1, Agil 6 ship something like a midget racer, not particularly fast, but real good in the turns.

But I hadn't read HG in years, so I could be misremembering.

 

[Vladika]

I've read HG2 so many times over the last 32 years... read my last post and go re-read HG2, you may just have an "oh" moment

I've both read and played CT/HG since it came out. In all that time I've never seen or heard of anyone interpreting the rules as you suggest. This includes the official TCS games run at CONs by GDW personnel.

Agility: Energy points remaining after weapons, screens, and computers have been installed may be applied toward the ship's agility rating. Divide the remaining energy points by 0.01 M; the result is the number of agility points the ship has.

Drop all fractional points. Agility is the ability of a ship to make violent maneuvers and take evasive action while engaging hostile targets. A ship's agility rating may never exceed its maneuver drive rating.

-HG2 p28

The ability to perform normal maneuver is NOT effected by having an agility of zero.

 

[mike wightman]

So now you are claiming a manoeuvre 6 ship can exceed manoeuvre 6?

By your interpretation a ship can accelerate on a course at 6g and make violent manoeuvres, thus exceeding the 6g limit.

 

[mike wightman]

I've both read and played CT/HG since it came out. In all that time I've never seen or heard of anyone interpreting the rules as you suggest. This includes the official TCS games run at CONs by GDW personnel.

I could use the same argument, I too have played HG2since its publication and had never come across your interpretation . Sadly no GDW guys ever made the trip over here, I would love to have had the opportunity to discuss their rules with them - especially since they didn't apply them from one rule book to the next or from one supplement to the next, and that's before discussing broken designs.

-HG2 p28

Yup, this bit proves my interpretation.

The ability to perform normal maneuver is NOT effected by having an agility of zero.

Ah ha, so now we have the root of the problem. HG2 agility is not for normal movement.
Agility is only used during the abstract movement of HG2 combat. It is the ability to conduct violent manoeuvres during hostilities. For in system manoeuvre you would use the m-drive rating and use Mayday or CT vector movement.
Normal manoeuvring is outside of combat and all power is going to the m-drive - well all the power need to reach it's maximum g rating.

 

[mike wightman]

By the way If I was redesigning HG I would scrap agility - it isn't needed. I would also use a range band system for abstract movement.

I would use the m-drive rating to be used as follows - to open or close range or as a defensive DM or any combination of these two.

So a m-6 fleet could allocate 3 to closing range and have a defensive DM of 3 for the combat tables.

Or you could make a different allocation for each squadron in the fleet, or each capital ship plus its escorts.

 

[aramis]

So now you are claiming a manoeuvre 6 ship can exceed manoeuvre 6?

By your interpretation a ship can accelerate on a course at 6g and make violent manoeuvres, thus exceeding the 6g limit.

See SSOM. 6G can get To 24 G's for Short periods. Cannon trumps Mike...