Travelling with the times...

[daryen]

Originally posted by Garf:
I know it's slightly off topic but the longevity of firearms tech is one of personal fascination.

Right. It may not make sense but I like Traveller Firearms as is.

Part of the problem of firearms is that we, quite simply, can't think of any better way to do a slugthrower.

But don't forget that the far future slugthrowers are quite different. They probably use very different, highly resistant materials. They are almost certainly caseless. They probably have tolerances we can only dream about.

So, while they are "the same", they are also quite different.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Garf:
I know it's slightly off topic but the longevity of firearms tech is one of personal fascination.

Right. It may not make sense but I like Traveller Firearms as is.

Part of the problem of firearms is that we, quite simply, can't think of any better way to do a slugthrower.

But don't forget that the far future slugthrowers are quite different. They probably use very different, highly resistant materials. They are almost certainly caseless. They probably have tolerances we can only dream about.

So, while they are "the same", they are also quite different.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

I'm not sure I agree.

Oh sure, The tech level 10 or 12 slugthrower might be Hi-impact super plastic or, if metal, come with an absosulutly amazing polymer rust coat and a variety of annodized colours.

But in the real world we are at tech 8 to 9 and haven't improved qualitatively on designs developed at tech 6.

I think the bulk of tech 5 to 10 planetary armies, Mercenary regiments and adventurers who don't know WHAT tech the planet they will be landing on. Use firearms not merely functionally no different from ours but design-wise little improved on the latest from Glock or SIG or HK.

Many guns will be locally manufactured. Also there is, once we escape the gravity well, no real mineral shortage and without that shortage I doubt (though I can't prove) Alloys are really that much more expensive the firearms quality plastics.

So... from a logistics sense. Especially since cartridges seem to be standardised. I can see the Autopistol being very much like say... a Cz-75, or the Latest Glock.

Snub, Guass, Accelerator, and laser weopans are of course a different story.

Ridicoulous? perhaps.

But Imperial Marines still weild swords, and everyone still uses the wheel. even WITH contragravity.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

I'm not sure I agree.

Oh sure, The tech level 10 or 12 slugthrower might be Hi-impact super plastic or, if metal, come with an absosulutly amazing polymer rust coat and a variety of annodized colours.

But in the real world we are at tech 8 to 9 and haven't improved qualitatively on designs developed at tech 6.

I think the bulk of tech 5 to 10 planetary armies, Mercenary regiments and adventurers who don't know WHAT tech the planet they will be landing on. Use firearms not merely functionally no different from ours but design-wise little improved on the latest from Glock or SIG or HK.

Many guns will be locally manufactured. Also there is, once we escape the gravity well, no real mineral shortage and without that shortage I doubt (though I can't prove) Alloys are really that much more expensive the firearms quality plastics.

So... from a logistics sense. Especially since cartridges seem to be standardised. I can see the Autopistol being very much like say... a Cz-75, or the Latest Glock.

Snub, Guass, Accelerator, and laser weopans are of course a different story.

Ridicoulous? perhaps.

But Imperial Marines still weild swords, and everyone still uses the wheel. even WITH contragravity.

 

[roygbiv]

Originally posted by daryen:
But don't forget that the far future slugthrowers are quite different. They probably use very different, highly resistant materials. They are almost certainly caseless. They probably have tolerances we can only dream about.

So, while they are "the same", they are also quite different.

They'll also be subjected to the same laws of physics which limit us today. Gasses have a finite limit on how fast they can expand. This imposes an upper limit on how fast we can drive a projectile. I think TNE's design rules talk about rounds which continuously accelerate through the length of the barrel but even then we'll still only be able to drive a projectile "so" fast in an atmosphere. My money would be on gauss and energy weapons.

The TML had a long and very interesting discussion about CPR weapons:

<http://lists.travellerrpg.com/pipermail/tml/2002-December/173014.html>

 

[roygbiv]

Originally posted by daryen:
But don't forget that the far future slugthrowers are quite different. They probably use very different, highly resistant materials. They are almost certainly caseless. They probably have tolerances we can only dream about.

So, while they are "the same", they are also quite different.

They'll also be subjected to the same laws of physics which limit us today. Gasses have a finite limit on how fast they can expand. This imposes an upper limit on how fast we can drive a projectile. I think TNE's design rules talk about rounds which continuously accelerate through the length of the barrel but even then we'll still only be able to drive a projectile "so" fast in an atmosphere. My money would be on gauss and energy weapons.

The TML had a long and very interesting discussion about CPR weapons:

<http://lists.travellerrpg.com/pipermail/tml/2002-December/173014.html>

 

[Bill Coffin]

Since we're talking about guns, I also understand that another extremely popular assault rifle of the FN FAL, which has been used by pretty much every nation inf Europe and Africa at some point or another. Just another way to show how older tech can still be prevalent in an era where there are plenty of more modern alternatives.

As for my game, the obvious anachronisms that existed when the game was written will be overlooked. Or, they'll be made cool again but they'll keep their retro form. Tape computers might still be around but a spool of tape might now contain all of the information currently stored on our Internet. That sort of fix is easy to implement.

As for nanotech and heavy cybertech, I really don't want it in my Classic Traveller games. Part of the charm of this game, I think, is its focus on people, not technology.

 

[Bill Coffin]

Since we're talking about guns, I also understand that another extremely popular assault rifle of the FN FAL, which has been used by pretty much every nation inf Europe and Africa at some point or another. Just another way to show how older tech can still be prevalent in an era where there are plenty of more modern alternatives.

As for my game, the obvious anachronisms that existed when the game was written will be overlooked. Or, they'll be made cool again but they'll keep their retro form. Tape computers might still be around but a spool of tape might now contain all of the information currently stored on our Internet. That sort of fix is easy to implement.

As for nanotech and heavy cybertech, I really don't want it in my Classic Traveller games. Part of the charm of this game, I think, is its focus on people, not technology.

 

[MrMorden]

Just to toss in some random weapons knowledge and speculation WRT Traveller:

1) The AK-47 action is a modification of the German SG-44 action used in 1943-1945.

2) The reason the M16 was unreliable in Vietnam was not a problem with the weapon. The government contractors used the wrong powder specification in the ammunition, and this caused severe fouling in the weapons. Since this was corrected in late 1967 the M16/M177/M4 weapons plateform has been one of the most reliable in history.

As for tolerances, increasing tolerances does NOT make the weapon more reliable; in fact, it means it is more easily stopped up by environmental gunk. One of the prime reasons the AK action is so reliable is that the tolerances are...lax, for lack of a more colorful description.

There seems to be a lot of focus in this thread on the power and lethality of a weapon. After a certain point, adding more power becomes counterproductive. The goal of a weapon is energy transfer, and if you shoot somebody with a round that blows through their back, a large part of the energy of the strike has just left the target. There are also tactical considerations (like fratricide) that make overpenetration a big no-no.

Rather than designing new weapons, it's often better to design a better round for an existing weapon. That's what NATO did when it went to the SS109 cartridge for the M16 rifle.

BTW, I spent three years as a Police Officer, so this is not uninformed banter. BTW, this is a good discussion.

 

[MrMorden]

Just to toss in some random weapons knowledge and speculation WRT Traveller:

1) The AK-47 action is a modification of the German SG-44 action used in 1943-1945.

2) The reason the M16 was unreliable in Vietnam was not a problem with the weapon. The government contractors used the wrong powder specification in the ammunition, and this caused severe fouling in the weapons. Since this was corrected in late 1967 the M16/M177/M4 weapons plateform has been one of the most reliable in history.

As for tolerances, increasing tolerances does NOT make the weapon more reliable; in fact, it means it is more easily stopped up by environmental gunk. One of the prime reasons the AK action is so reliable is that the tolerances are...lax, for lack of a more colorful description.

There seems to be a lot of focus in this thread on the power and lethality of a weapon. After a certain point, adding more power becomes counterproductive. The goal of a weapon is energy transfer, and if you shoot somebody with a round that blows through their back, a large part of the energy of the strike has just left the target. There are also tactical considerations (like fratricide) that make overpenetration a big no-no.

Rather than designing new weapons, it's often better to design a better round for an existing weapon. That's what NATO did when it went to the SS109 cartridge for the M16 rifle.

BTW, I spent three years as a Police Officer, so this is not uninformed banter. BTW, this is a good discussion.

 

[Vargas]

One reason Imperial Marines use swords is the problem inherant with guns of all types; what happens when the round keeps going (having passed through the target or missed and has bounced off something else)? In other words, do you really want to fire that ACR down the corridor on full rock and roll?

 

[Vargas]

One reason Imperial Marines use swords is the problem inherant with guns of all types; what happens when the round keeps going (having passed through the target or missed and has bounced off something else)? In other words, do you really want to fire that ACR down the corridor on full rock and roll?

 

[signless]

Of course you don't want to full-auto your ACR down a corridor. That's what plasma weapons are for!
IMTU just about anything goes. Which is what keeps the IISS in business.
The Scouts not only go scooting about looking for new worlds to conquer, I have 'em riding herd on what's happening on relatively high Tl worlds, too. If someone happens to be researching a nanotech utility fog, they get whisked off to an Imperial Research Station to do their work. Same with bio-tech enhancements.
But I also developed several Solomani family timelines that could be traced back to players who took part in a Twilight:2K campaign. We then shifted to 2300...and even worked out a campaign set in the Long Night.
I took bio-tech cyberpunk enhancements for granted...I just made them much more unpalatable to the masses than the use of psionics in the Imperium.
But what happens on worlds outside the borders of Imperial Space...on worlds long forgotten since the dawn of the Third Empire...well, that's what Travelling is all about to me, at least. Since I play in a relatively canon universe, my characters are those whose little-known actions keep it that way...

 

[signless]

Of course you don't want to full-auto your ACR down a corridor. That's what plasma weapons are for!
IMTU just about anything goes. Which is what keeps the IISS in business.
The Scouts not only go scooting about looking for new worlds to conquer, I have 'em riding herd on what's happening on relatively high Tl worlds, too. If someone happens to be researching a nanotech utility fog, they get whisked off to an Imperial Research Station to do their work. Same with bio-tech enhancements.
But I also developed several Solomani family timelines that could be traced back to players who took part in a Twilight:2K campaign. We then shifted to 2300...and even worked out a campaign set in the Long Night.
I took bio-tech cyberpunk enhancements for granted...I just made them much more unpalatable to the masses than the use of psionics in the Imperium.
But what happens on worlds outside the borders of Imperial Space...on worlds long forgotten since the dawn of the Third Empire...well, that's what Travelling is all about to me, at least. Since I play in a relatively canon universe, my characters are those whose little-known actions keep it that way...

 

[Antaine]

Originally posted by TRAV:
Sophia your post about the AK47 was good. My understanding is that currently the three military rifle designs most commonly used in the world today in order are:
1 AK type actions
2 M16/AR15 type actions
3 M-1 Carbine

This is just a bit of trivia but the AK and the M-1 carbine have existed since the 1940s to me that is major technological longevity...

Sorry for the OT but I wanted to show off...

I'll see your OT and raise you one!

You forgot the Belgiun FN-FAL and it's varient/derivitives.

 

[Antaine]

Originally posted by TRAV:
Sophia your post about the AK47 was good. My understanding is that currently the three military rifle designs most commonly used in the world today in order are:
1 AK type actions
2 M16/AR15 type actions
3 M-1 Carbine

This is just a bit of trivia but the AK and the M-1 carbine have existed since the 1940s to me that is major technological longevity...

Sorry for the OT but I wanted to show off...

I'll see your OT and raise you one!

You forgot the Belgiun FN-FAL and it's varient/derivitives.

 

[Elliot]

Just a bit off the current topic, but in context...


There is nothing to suggest that nanotech does not exist in CT - The Retro-viral drugs described (or was that MT?) could easily be nanotech based.

I once shared a house with some nanotech pharmacology students when I was doing my PhD (I, to my shame, studied history) - Their view was that you could in theory build biological machines that acted as dedicated T cells that could be codied to kill the latest virus.

So why not have retro-viral nanotech machines that were like 'intelligent' self coding T Cells that waited for the enemy before coding and attacking?

The thing about CT is that it is deliberately vague = there are no rules for how a thing works, it just does. As the Travellers Digest on bionics shows, just about any supplementary rule can be added to Traveller's core. Which is why Traveller has moved with the times and not got stuck in the 1970s.

 

[Elliot]

Just a bit off the current topic, but in context...


There is nothing to suggest that nanotech does not exist in CT - The Retro-viral drugs described (or was that MT?) could easily be nanotech based.

I once shared a house with some nanotech pharmacology students when I was doing my PhD (I, to my shame, studied history) - Their view was that you could in theory build biological machines that acted as dedicated T cells that could be codied to kill the latest virus.

So why not have retro-viral nanotech machines that were like 'intelligent' self coding T Cells that waited for the enemy before coding and attacking?

The thing about CT is that it is deliberately vague = there are no rules for how a thing works, it just does. As the Travellers Digest on bionics shows, just about any supplementary rule can be added to Traveller's core. Which is why Traveller has moved with the times and not got stuck in the 1970s.

 

[ACK!!]

Nanotech is extemely prohibited and feared IMTU. All off-world entry points have nano-tech scanning tech for package, bulk and personal screening.

The terroist group threatening to unleash horrible destructive nano-tech plague has been a plot thread I used before.

What are the thoughts on cybernetics/bionics in Traveller?

I know there was a JTAS article on bionics.

I told a person that inquired that cybernetics are highly looked down upon and the person could easily be refused entry on multiple planets due to any mechanical mods on their body.

On the cyberspace front since there is no FTL communication all nets are system-wide updated for information by x-boat transmission. The 'net so to speak is completely 3-D IMTU with trode hookup (trodes sit on head, manipulate computer with your mind no "jacking in") or if the person did not have time to sit in one place for hours on end they can work in windowed mode or with google setup. How do you guys handle this sort of detail besides the obvious descriptive winging it manuever?

 

[ACK!!]

Nanotech is extemely prohibited and feared IMTU. All off-world entry points have nano-tech scanning tech for package, bulk and personal screening.

The terroist group threatening to unleash horrible destructive nano-tech plague has been a plot thread I used before.

What are the thoughts on cybernetics/bionics in Traveller?

I know there was a JTAS article on bionics.

I told a person that inquired that cybernetics are highly looked down upon and the person could easily be refused entry on multiple planets due to any mechanical mods on their body.

On the cyberspace front since there is no FTL communication all nets are system-wide updated for information by x-boat transmission. The 'net so to speak is completely 3-D IMTU with trode hookup (trodes sit on head, manipulate computer with your mind no "jacking in") or if the person did not have time to sit in one place for hours on end they can work in windowed mode or with google setup. How do you guys handle this sort of detail besides the obvious descriptive winging it manuever?