Trillion Credit Squadron, the 1981 tournament!

[Spinward Flow]

You don't need to recreate all of them, just Eurisko.

Huh.
I think I may have just found the Weak Point™ in the Eurisko design ... but in order to exploit it most effectively, you need to commit to doing something highly counter-intuitive, so I highly doubt that anyone would even think to attempt this in a tournament context.



The Eurisko design is "vulnerable" to meson sleds, because armor "doesn't help" against meson weapons.
At TL=12, the following meson gun spinal mounts are available.

USP Code	Tonnage	Tech Level	Cost (MCr)	Energy Points
A	5000	11	10000	500
B	8000	11	12000	600
C	2000	12	3000	600
D	5000	12	5000	700
K	8000	12	10000	1000

However, what this table from LBB5.80, p24 is "missing" for our purposes is the total tonnage (weapon, power plant, fuel, crew quarters) and cost that would be associated with each of these meson gun spinal mounts ... which can then be used to calculate their "true cost" inside of a Meson Sled™ hull design when it comes to fleet procurement decisions.

Meson-A (TL=11)

• Weapon requires 5000 tons and MCr10,000
• 500 EP requires 1500 tons of power plant and MCr4500
• 500 EP requires 500 tons of fuel (and MCr0)
• Gunnery secton requires 50 gunners (35 ratings, 15 petty officers, 5 officers) + 1 petty officer for battery + 1 chief gunnery officer
• Engineering section requires 15 engineers (10 ratings, 3 petty officers, 2 officers)
  • = (45 ratings + 19 petty officers) * 2 tons + 8 officers * 4 tons = 160 tons and MCr20 for staterooms
• = 5000+1500+500+160 = 7160 tons
• = 10000+4500+15.75 = MCr14,520

Meson-B (TL=11)

• Weapon requires 8000 tons and MCr12,000
• 600 EP requires 1800 tons of power plant and MCr5400
• 600 EP requires 600 tons of fuel (and MCr0)
• Gunnery section requires 80 gunners (48 ratings, 24 petty officers, 8 officers) + 1 petty officer for battery + 1 chief gunnery officer
• Engineering section requires 18 engineers (12 ratings, 4 petty officers, 2 officers)
  • = (60 ratings + 29 petty officers) * 2 tons + 11 officers * 4 tons = 222 tons and MCr27.75 for staterooms
• = 8000+1800+600+222 = 10,622 tons
• = 12000+5400+27.75 = MCr17,427.75

Meson-C (TL=12)

• Weapon requires 2000 tons and MCr3000
• 600 EP requires 1800 tons of power plant and MCr5400
• 600 EP requires 600 tons of fuel (and MCr0)
• Gunnery section requires 20 gunners (12 ratings, 6 petty officers, 2 officers) + 1 petty officer for battery + 1 chief gunnery officer
• Engineering section requires 18 engineers (12 ratings, 4 petty officers, 2 officers)
  • = (24 ratings + 11 petty officers) * 2 tons + 5 officers * 4 tons = 90 tons and MCr11.25 for staterooms
• = 2000+1800+600+90 = 4490 tons
• = 3000+5400+11.25 = MCr8,411.25

Meson-D (TL=12)

• Weapon requires 5000 tons and MCr5000
• 700 EP requires 2100 tons of power plant and MCr6300
• 700 EP requires 700 tons of fuel (and MCr0)
• Gunnery secton requires 50 gunners (35 ratings, 15 petty officers, 5 officers) + 1 petty officer for battery + 1 chief gunnery officer
• Engineering section requires 21 engineers (15 ratings, 4 petty officers, 2 officers)
  • = (50 ratings + 20 petty officers) * 2 tons + 8 officers * 4 tons = 172 tons and MCr21.5 for staterooms
• = 5000+2100+700+172 = 7972 tons
• = 5000+6300+21.5 = MCr11,321.5

Meson-K (TL=12)

• Weapon requires 8000 tons and MCr10,000
• 1000 EP requires 3000 tons of power plant and MCr9000
• 1000 EP requires 1000 tons of fuel (and MCr0)
• Gunnery section requires 80 gunners (48 ratings, 24 petty officers, 8 officers) + 1 petty officer for battery + 1 chief gunnery officer
• Engineering section requires 30 engineers (21 ratings, 6 petty officers, 3 officers)
  • = (69 ratings + 31 petty officers) * 2 tons + 12 officers * 4 tons = 248 tons and MCr31 for staterooms
• = 8000+3000+1000+248 = 12,248 tons
• = 10000+9000+31 = MCr19,031

So if I were to take the above table from LBB5.80, p24 and "fill in the extra info" ... here's what I would have:

USP Code	Tonnage	Tech Level	Cost (MCr)	Energy Points	Total Tonnage Needed	Total Combined Cost (MCr)	Damage Rolls
A	5000	11	10000	500	7160	14,520	2
B	8000	11	12000	600	10,622	17,427.75	3
C	2000	12	3000	600	4490	8,411.25	4
D	5000	12	5000	700	7972	11,321.5	5
K	8000	12	10000	1000	12,248	19,031	11

But here's the REAL kicker for this bit of comparative analysis.

USP Code	Tech Level	Total Tonnage Needed per Damage Roll	Total Combined Cost (MCr) per Damage Roll	Damage Rolls
A	11	3580	7260	2
B	11	3540.6667	5809.25	3
C	12	1122.5	2102.8125	4
D	12	1594.4	2264.3	5
K	12	1113.4545	1730.0909	11

Ordinarily, you would look at this analysis and think that "of course the Meson-K is the best!" @ TL=12 ... but that's only in the 1v1 dueling sense. The Meson-K is "excellent" for single ship kills ... if it hits, penetrates screen and configuration and gets to deal damage ... but that's an "all in one" kill shot if it gets to deal damage. If the Meson-K gets defeated by missing, or is intercepted by a screen or fails to penetrate a configuration ... all of that damage potential gets "wasted" because no damage is dealt.

Also, the Meson-K is a LARGE spinal mount, meaning that if you build a meson sled class around the Meson-K as your "make it go away" weapon, you're going to need ships with humongous hulls ... all of which gets rather expensive in a hurry, eating into the size of your Trillion Credit Squadron.



Now, take a look at the Meson-C and compare it to the Meson-K.
4490 tons needed vs 12,248 tons needed ... meaning the Meson-C is 36.66% of the tonnage needed of the Meson-K.
MCr8411.25 combined cost vs MCr19,031 combined cost ... meaning the Meson-C is 44.20% of the cost needed of the Meson-K.

In other words, a fleet equipped with Meson-C sleds would be able to field more spinal mounts (at least 2x as many) in a fleet of smaller and cheaper to build ships, creating a higher volume of fire while simultaneously increasing the number of spinal mount platforms, potentially better "soaking" incoming damage.



As demonstrated in the tournament by the fleets that the Eurisko actually fought, the adversary fleets simply couldn't muster sufficient firepower for their cost to whittle away at the superior numbers of Eurisko ships fast enough ... so a battle of attrition favored Eurisko. I suspect that most adversary fleets angled for the Meson-K without a second thought (because biggest is bestest! ) and then paid the price (for their lack of vision ...) when they started getting overwhelmed by a Quantity That Has A Quality All Of Its Own that they were ill equipped to fight a battle of attrition with.

However, if someone had DARED to build a fleet of Meson-C "light cruisers" to increase their fleet's rate of fire (for the same construction cost), the outcome of engagements might have been different.



I look at this particular balance point as being broadly similar to the comparison of the Meson-N vs the Meson-T ... and how in the context of a fleet procurement policy and doctrine, the Meson-N is actually the superior choice between the two options because of how the "smaller, lighter" spinal mount makes for "leaner, meaner and more numerous" meson sled designs which can better overwhelm an adversary with superior rates of fire while losing almost nothing in terms of lethality on successful hits.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So if I were to take the above table from LBB5.80, p24 and "fill in the extra info" ... here's what I would have:

USP Code	Tonnage	Tech Level	Cost (MCr)	Energy Points	Total Tonnage Needed	Total Combined Cost (MCr)	Damage Rolls
A	5000	11	10000	500	7160	14,520	2
B	8000	11	12000	600	10,622	17,427.75	3
C	2000	12	3000	600	4490	8,411.25	4
D	5000	12	5000	700	7972	11,321.5	5
K	8000	12	10000	1000	12,248	19,031	11

Yes!

The three most important characteristics are:
A: How much does it cost (≈size, as the ship will be the dominating cost)?
B: How likely is it to hit & penetrate?
C: How likely is it to kill, if it hits?
D: For bonus points, How likely is it to hit & kill an enemy when damaged one step?


A: How much does it cost?
The ship will cost much more than the spinal, so the cost of delivering it to the battlefield and defending it is almost proportional to size.


B: How likely is it to hit & penetrate?
Not very...
Against an Eurisko a C gun will hit at 7+ (58%), penetrate at 8+ (42%) and 9+ (28%), for a total chance of ~7% chance of doing damage.
A K gun will hit at 6+ (72%), penetrate at 5+ (83%) and 7+ (58%), for a total chance of ~35% chance of doing damage.
Three times the size, but five times the chance of inflicting damage.
Hit chance is better at Short range, but penetration is still a problem.


C: How likely is it to kill, if it hits?
I don't care about small hits, what is the chance of killing the ship outright? Thats why we are paying for extremely expensive spinals.
Basically we are counting unrepairable hits: crew, fuel tanks shattered, and crits.
Each rolled hit is 12/36 crew, 4/36 fuel tanks, and 7/36 crit total on both damage tables. A crit is IIRC about 50% crippling as jump drive hits, hangar hits, etc. are irrelevant. So for each damage roll the target has to survive 12/36+1/36×50% and 4/36+6/36×50%, so 35% and 20% ≈ 52% chance of survival.
A C gun inflicts 4 damage rolls, chance if surviving all four is ~7%.
A K gun inflicts 11 damage rolls, chance if surviving all four is ~0.1% (or 0% with statistical resolution).
That's a wash, a 7% chance of survival (but the computer probably needs repairs) isn't much to worry about.
[You really want a frozen watch {and a spare computer} to survive the C gun hit, but unrealistic in tournament as it costs pilots.]

So far, the total kill rate for the C gun is almost 7%, and 35% for the K gun.



D: For bonus points, How likely is it to hit & kill an enemy when damaged one step?
As the attacker chooses weapon hits, the very first will degrade the spinal. Count on all spinals being reduced at least one step after the first round of combat by missile fire.
The K gun is almost unaffected, but the C gun becomes a B gun with ~4.5% chance of doing damage and a 14% chance of survival, roughly a 4% kill rate, down from almost 7%.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Now the tricky bit: protecting the meson gun against the over 4000 missile batteries of the Eurisko fleet.

Lenat did this for his meson gun:

Nearly twice the cost of an Eurisko, no agility, and disappointing armour. A K gun would be three times the cost, and be easier to hit...

A factor 3 missile battery would hit at 5+ (83%) and penetrate on 8+ (42%) for a total hit rate of ~35%.
Against armour 14 each hit will do 12/36 (33%) weapons damage, so it takes three hits to inflict one weapon damage.
Roughly it takes 8.7 fired missile batteries to achieve one weapon damage.
It takes 11 weapon damage results to degrade the meson to factor 9 and irrelevance, hence about 96 missile batteries fired.

Two Euriskos will degrade the Cisor's spinal on one round, relegating it to the reserve for repairs for 20 rounds. Definitely not good enough...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

How can we defend better? Either with armour, or agility.

Armour means full rocks, we take much fewer weapon damage results, but are even easier to hit... A full armour 18 rock takes about 95% of the ship for armour and drives, that is not happening. A rider takes ~70%, that is still 40 kDt for a Meson K gun, plus a tender.
Rocks and spinals does not mix well at TL-12...

Agility is much more expensive, but can let us control the range with higher minimum agility and more ships (400 Dt soak-offs).
A full wish-list with Agility 6 and the Eurisko drop tanks gives me something like:

BC-P1568F4-B41106-348K2-0     MCr 84 682      62 000 Dton    Ag=6
BC-Q1345F4-B41106-348K2-0     MCr 84 682      93 000 Dton
bearing     E   1 EE11Z                        Crew=1 131
batteries   J   1 JJ11Z                             TL=12
     Fuel=5019 EP=5019 Low=566 Cargo=34 Agility=4 (Z=466)

Spoiler

Dual Occupancy                                       35   105 853
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             P         62 000        
Configuration       Needle/Wedge       1                    7 440
Scoops              Streamlined                                62
Armour              11                 B         14 880    20 832
                                                               
Drop Tanks          31 000 Dton                                31
Total tonnage       93 000 Dton                                
                                                               
Jump Drive                             5    1     3 720    14 880
Manoeuvre D                            6    1    10 540     5 270
Power Plant                            8    1    15 057    45 171
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-5, 4 weeks            5     5 019        
                                                               
Bridge                                      1     1 240       310
Computer            m/6fib             F    2        28       166
                                                               
Staterooms                                  4        16         2
Staterooms, Half                         1127     2 254       282
Low Berths                                566       283        28
                                                               
Cargo                                                35        
                                                               
Spinal              Meson K            K    1     8 000    10 000
Bay                 Particle, 100 t    8    1       100        36
Bay                 Repulsor, 100 t    6    1       100        11
Triple Turret       Missile            2  466       466     1 049
Triple Turret       Beam               3   18        18        54
Single Turret       Fusion             4   18        36        36
Triple Turret       Sand               4   18        18        14
                                                               
Nuclear Damper                         1    2       100       100
Meson Screen                           1    1        90        80
                                                               
Nominal Cost        MCr 105 853,06       Sum:        35   105 853
Class Cost          MCr  22 229,14      Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr  84 682,45                              
                                                               
                                                               
Crew &               High     0        Crew          Bridge    31
Passengers            Mid     0        1131       Engineers   294
                      Low     0                     Gunners   620
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service   186
               # Frozen W     1         566          Flight     0
                  Marines     0                     Marines     0

We can only get ten of them for the budget, fill out with some 400 Dt rocks to get a numerical advantage.
With better agility and numerical advantage, we will generally control range, and set it to Short.

First round is at Long range though...
The Euriskos have 4000 missile batteries, so 400 batteries per our ship.
Hit at 10+ (17%), penetrate at 8+ (42%), total 7%, so 27.8 damage rolls.
Against armour 11 each roll does 29/36 (81%) weapon-1 results, for a total of 22.4 weapon damage.
The first, eighth, fifteenth, and twenty-second damage is to the spinal, so it is degraded to factor F. Not a promising start...

Our meson guns has a 35% kill rate, so we destroy 3 Euriskos, 72 to go...
Our 4660 missile batteries hits at 8+ (42%), penetrate at 9+ (28%), total 12%, so ~540 damage rolls.
Each roll does 3/36 (8%) weapons results, so total 45 weapon results, almost peeling the weapons off one Eurisko, 71 to go...

To cut a long story short, we lose.


After each round of engagement, we need to repair for ~10 rounds. So we need something similar to the Eurisko to hide behind, pop out once in awhile to kill some Euriskos, rince and repeat.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So, how do we make a better Eurisko?

How about squeezing it to make it smaller, cheaper, and almost as effective?

BA-G952563-J41100-34003-0      MCr 6 848       7 300 Dton    Ag=2
BA-K931363-J41100-34003-0      MCr 6 848      10 950 Dton
bearing     1     11  Z                          Crew=103
batteries   1     11  Z                             TL=12
      Cargo=2 Fuel=365 EP=365 Agility=1 DropT=3650 (Z=35)

Spoiler

Dual Occupancy                                        3     8 560
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Unstreamlined Custom             G          7 300       
Configuration       Buffered Plane     9          2 555         5
Armour              18                 J          1 898     2 847
                                                              
Drop Tanks          3 650 Dton                                  4
Total tonnage       10 950 Dton                               
                                                              
Jump Drive                             5    1       438     1 752
Manoeuvre D                            2    1       365       256
Power Plant                            5    1     1 095     3 285
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-5, 4 weeks            5       365       
                                                              
Bridge                                      1       146        37
Computer            m/6                6    1         7        55
                                                              
Staterooms                                  4        16         2
Staterooms, Half                           99       198        25
                                                              
Cargo                                                 3       
                                                              
Triple Turret 2/bat Missile            3   35        70       158    70 turrets organised into 35 batteries.
Triple Turret       Beam               3    1         1         3
Single Turret       Fusion             4    1         2         2
Triple Turret       Sand               4    1         1         1
                                                              
Nuclear Damper                         1    1        50        50
Meson Screen                           1    1        90        80
                                                              
Nominal Cost        MCr 8 560,14         Sum:         3     8 560
Class Cost          MCr 1 797,63        Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 6 848,11                               
                                                              
                                                              
Crew &               High     0        Crew          Bridge    11
Passengers            Mid     0         103       Engineers    19
                      Low     0                     Gunners    51
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service    22
               # Frozen W     0           0          Flight     0
                  Marines     0                     Marines     0

Saves a third of the cost, still as resistant to spinals.
Less missile batteries, slower repairs.
We can't have more of them, since pilots, but it frees up some cash for meson sleds...



To make sure we have more ships (to control the range) we need something survivable at less than 500 Dt, so requiring only 1 pilot each. Something like:

LA-4806862-F30000-14001-0        MCr 448         400 Dton
bearing     1     11  5                           Crew=10
batteries   1     11  5                             TL=12
                          Cargo=0 Fuel=32 EP=32 Agility=6

Spoiler

Dual Occupancy                                                559
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Unstreamlined Custom             4            400       
Configuration       Planetoid          8             80         0
Armour              15                 F            104       156
                                                              
Manoeuvre D         M                  6    1        23        48
Power Plant                            8    1        96       288
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-0, 4 weeks                     32       
Purifier                                    1         6         0
                                                              
Bridge                                      1        20         2
Computer            m/6                6    1         7        55
                                                              
Staterooms                                  4        16         2
Staterooms, Half                            6        12         2
                                                              
Cargo                                                         
                                                              
Mixed Turret        Full                    1         2       
  Weapon            Missile            1    1                   1
  Weapon            Fusion             4    1                   2
Mixed Turret        Full                    1         1       
  Weapon            Missile            1    2                   2
  Weapon            Pulse              1    1                   1
Mixed Turret        Full                    1         1       
  Weapon            Missile            1    2                   2
  Weapon            Sand               3    1                   0
                                                              
Nominal Cost        MCr 559,39           Sum:                 559
Class Cost          MCr 117,47          Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 447,51                                 
                                                              
                                                              
Crew &               High     0        Crew          Bridge     2
Passengers            Mid     0          10       Engineers     4
                      Low     0                     Gunners     3
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service     1
               # Frozen W     0           0          Flight     0

Fairly resistant to missiles, but highly vulnerable to spinals, at least particle accelerators.
No jump drive, so requires a tender adding to the cost.


If Lenat's Wasp-class can use Z-drive magic, I guess I can too:

TL-B7344S2-000000-00000-0        MCr 570       2 800 Dton    Ag=4
TL-D7333S2-000000-00000-0        MCr 570       4 000 Dton
bearing                                           Crew=23
batteries                                           TL=12
              Cargo=5 Fuel=40 EP=112 Agility=2 DropT=1200

Spoiler

Dual Occupancy                                        5       713
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Unstreamlined Custom             B          2 800         
Configuration       Dispersed          7                      140
                                                                
Drop Tanks          1 200 Dton                                  1
Total tonnage       4 000 Dton                                   
                                                                
Jump Drive          Z                  3    1       125       240
Manoeuvre D         Z                  3    1        47        96
Power Plant         Z                  3    1        73       192
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-3, 4 weeks            3        40         
                                                                
Bridge                                      1        56        14
Computer            m/2bis             S    1         2        18
                                                                
Staterooms                                  3        12         2
Staterooms, Half                           20        40         5
                                                                
Cargo                                                 5         
                                                                
Ship                400 Dton                6     2 400         5
                                                                
Nominal Cost        MCr 712,51           Sum:         5       713
Class Cost          MCr 149,63          Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 570,01                                   
                                                                
                                                                
Crew &               High     0        Crew          Bridge    11
Passengers            Mid     0          23       Engineers     3
                      Low     0                     Gunners     0
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service     9
               # Frozen W     0           0          Flight     0

Cheap, cheap, cheap.
Only carries six 400 Dt filler ships, so doesn't save all that many pilots, but again cheap...