Troop Transports...

[Darley51]

Outside of troops assigned for ship security, is there any reason why troops in transit between worlds are not housed in low berths?

Ship expenses being what they are, the savings in life support and displacement would make low berth transport a viable economic option... (more troops, less space...).

Combat personnel being the investment that they are; and in anticipation of combat injuries, the on-board medical staff will be top notch (all other things being equal) - why do all the iterations of TUs have troops double stacked in staterooms - which, no matter how you look at them, are REALLY cramped for a week at a time with nothing much to do but practice close quarters combat skills post-poker game.... :smirk:

I would think it would be the same - imperial or mercenary troops.

Imperial (or other government) - "It is not ours to wonder why...."

Mercenary - "It's an economic decision, you see... and your medical needs ARE paid for by the company..."


Comments? Discussion?

 

[samuelvss]

Well, the odds of not waking up are (in CT at least) pretty crappy. You get it down to 4+ with a medic; just about the odds of surviving Russian roulette.

Any general who incurs 16% casualties before making contact gets fired, in my book. Not to mention, there and back gets you 33%.

 

[aramis]

.84*.84=.7056 only 29.5% casualties...

assuming CT style rules for effects of LB failure.

Under MT, only 3/36 are seriously injured of those who fail, so only 1.4% are casualties on the outbound. A Doctor, instead of a medic can reduce that even further, since it's patient's end and Doctor's skill for 7+... MD is Medical 3. Which means a 3+ roll.

In short, it's dangerous, but not as dangerous as the drop itself, especially if you can keep them hot for 24-48 hours before deployment.

 

[Easterner9504]

Low

Safer in GURPS . Physician 10+, or Med Equip 10+ have automatic success.
17,18 on 3d6 kills you w/o above persons.

So in GURPS the idea would work.

 

[samuelvss]

Enough of a crapshoot to sap morale in a professional military, any way you slice it. What are the opportunities to organize, train, and bond in low berths? How many newbies just topped off the unit before shipping?

Major B's Kinunir just posted gives a good example: in the marine spaces (E deck) he actually has space for planning areas and training areas. One of the keys for mobilization is giving the troops time to gel after cross-leveling.

Low berths should be the extreme solution for troop transport, not the norm.

 

[far-trader]

Actually it's only 8.4% failure roll for 4+ on 2D6, and in any case that's for passenger travel under Book 2 rules, which are really only applicable to the worst (Free-Traders and PCs) case scenarios. It's a game "fix" to make life interesting and have fun with the fictional history the idea of the low-lottery is drawn from. You'll note that HG with frozen watches does not require revival rolls or imply catastrophic, marginal, or any survival odds in fact.

There is a good reason or two (or more) for not shipping your troops low though.

Time to thaw, brief, and equip before deploying to start with. That week (or more) in transit can be used to train, or even just for R&R. And you can't thaw them until right before deployment if you don't have the life support aboard to handle them. So you might as well have the staterooms and double bunk them.

Having your troops fight from ice-box to ice-box is going to be exceedingly demoralizing and soon have them so out of sync with their own "time" that they'll lose any native loyalty they had. Might work for (some) Mercs, but not for Soldiers. Not unless you plan on keeping their whole extended family on ice too. And I'm sure that plan would go over really well too.

That said I do figure serving troops spend time as frozen watch too. One duty cycle out of several. Either as a punishment detail or unavoidable service. Some might volunteer for it, even more often or regularly. But, and one more reason, they're still going to want to be paid full rate for the time. And they won't be spending cred one at the base PX.

 

[flykiller]

Outside of troops assigned for ship security, is there any reason why troops in transit between worlds are not housed in low berths?

military training, weight and endurance training, cultural awareness classes, advancement exams, wargames, maintenance, battle damage repairs, religion, unit cohesion, aclimatization, psychological decompression. also politics - letting loose a few thousand marines on a friendly world to spend money accumulated over several months creates good will towards the imperial navy.

low berths are good too, for minimizing boredom of hyped up young male killers during long transits, say from trin to jewell.

imtu troop transports have both. each marine is alloted 3 dtons - 1.5 towards berthing, .5 towards a full lowberth, and .5 towards a combat equipment locker (.5 is corridor between the lowberth and locker). in addition there are holographic training suites, a parade deck, mess deck, etc. the marines may be up or down, all or some fraction thereof, as needed.

 

[aramis]

Pros of Live Haul of troops:
1) they can be briefed en route
2) lower risk of death
3) rapidity of deployment

Cons of Live Haul:
1) Life support costs
2) lack of "perceived recent training"
3) potential for casualties due to claustrophobic conditions
4) space requirement per trooper
5) Troops out of touch with base news while deployed
6) troops out of touch with regulation and doctrine changes while deployed.

Pros for Frozen
1) Recency of "perceived recent training" (That is, if they train just before freezing, they still act as if it was recent when thawed)
2) reduced cost of LS
3) reduced space per trooper
4) less need for PT equipment and formation space aboard
5) No chance of hostile interaction of troops while underway

Cons
1) increased risks of death from freeze-thaw cycle, as well as potential short term debility
2) increased time to deploy due to thawing process
3) utter reliance upon power systems (at least under MT, TNE, T4)
4) Troops out of touch with all news while frozen
5) Troops out of touch with regulation and doctrine changes while frozen
6) Troops apparent age may become well out of synch with chronological age.
7) troops can not be briefed nor plan while underway.
8) Service dates may not be reflective of personal time serving and thus experience.

 

[far-trader]

...a 'cold shower'. :rofl:

Dave Chase

I like it :rofl:

 

[Major B]

Major B's Kinunir just posted gives a good example: in the marine spaces (E deck) he actually has space for planning areas and training areas. One of the keys for mobilization is giving the troops time to gel after cross-leveling.

Thanks for the mention, but keep in mind that the Kinunir I laid out still has most of the warts of the original version. If I was designing a ship from scratch I'd devote even more space for items like you mentioned, along with more space for maintaining equipment and vehicles.

military training, weight and endurance training, cultural awareness classes, advancement exams, wargames, maintenance, battle damage repairs, religion, unit cohesion, aclimatization, psychological decompression. also politics - letting loose a few thousand marines on a friendly world to spend money accumulated over several months creates good will towards the imperial navy.

Great points - some I had in mind when I was laying out the Kinunir and some I never thought of.

I think Aramis summarized the key points for the decision on freezing or not. Flykiller's design gives the commander flexibility but may not always be possible when you need to cram as many troops as possible into available hull space, but designers also have to keep in mind the social aspects that come along with cramming large numbers of sophonts into small spaces.

For me, attaching a frozen unit to an assault task force is a good idea as a reserve, but not a component of the assault force. The troopers in the frozen watch are volunteers IMTU - a year in the frozen watch (with pay) buys you a better follow-on assignment on your re-enlistment contract.

 

[robject]

Medical Fast Drug?

 

[Major B]

In standard peace time, I would agree that frozen watch might not be that common.

But in time of war, any an all savings to get the troops to the front lines will be used.

The ships that are patrol type will probably have more non-frozen troops simply because they need to respond to a situtation now, and not after the troops are awake.

Ground assualt/seige/reserve troops might have more frozen in transport since their mission would take place after other war type issues would already be addressed by other troops/craft.

Agreed. Specific situations may skew slightly due to local conditions and availability of shipping, but the principles apply throughout.

About a year ago I was tinkering with an idea for a regimental-sized assault force organization, and had the idea to put a number of elements in frozen backup. One was Chemical Decon and Bio Treatment units that were not needed in most situations, but could be thawed and readied when the threat was present. Another was spare recon elements that were there in case the first units in didn't come back out. Also, some command and control teams that could be thawed to serve as liaison elements to indigenous forces, since these would usually not have the same commo and networking capabilities as the Imperial units. I think most commanders would like the idea of having some frozen line troops in reserve too. Well, thawed would be better, but any reserve is better than no reserve.

The piece I just haven't been able to work out to the depth I want is figuring out the ramifications of being frozen on the individual involved, and how to work frozen tours into a workable career path. Thats why these are still just ideas that I'm kicking around.

 

[flykiller]

Flykiller's design gives the commander flexibility but may not always be possible when you need to cram as many troops as possible into available hull space ....

as pointed out by others mass transport of entire armies for use in major ground actions would almost certainly require lowberths as the primary transportation mode. but as for imperial marines I don't view them as being armies, rather they're the on-scene naval troops that are always and immediately available for any situation. the commander says, "battalion here, now. division there, now.", and off they go. in this mode life support costs and dtonnage are not waste to be cut, they are the cost of doing business. marines are professionals, and they are housed and outfitted as such.

For me, attaching a frozen unit to an assault task force is a good idea as a reserve ....

it's essential. military units take casualties, and replacements are months away. might as well bring them with you to begin with.

I have a full battalion dtonnage laid out, if anyone wants to see it.

...a 'cold shower'.

I like it

(laugh) me too. in fact, given the mammalian diving reflex, a near-freeze might be a more believable option than a full freeze.

 

[Major B]

as pointed out by others mass transport of entire armies for use in major ground actions would almost certainly require lowberths as the primary transportation mode. but as for imperial marines I don't view them as being armies, rather they're the on-scene naval troops that are always and immediately available for any situation. the commander says, "battalion here, now. division there, now.", and off they go. in this mode life support costs and dtonnage are not waste to be cut, they are the cost of doing business. marines are professionals, and they are housed and outfitted as such.

I think we're in full agreement there. One of the many things I struggled with in laying out the Kinunir was that I couldn't fit in the facilities and living space I thought were "essential" but for the ship I'm working on now, the layout will be much like what you described.

it's essential. military units take casualties, and replacements are months away. might as well bring them with you to begin with.

I was thinking of a replacement unit when I wrote that. What you are describing (I think) is a replacement pool - individuals that can replace casualties within a unit already committed. Also a good idea, for the reasons you described.

I have a full battalion dtonnage laid out, if anyone wants to see it.

I'd be very interested to see that.

 

[Darley51]

Thanks!

Thanks for the wide range of responses! Several things I had not considered.

I'm still curious about the technology of low berthing... TL9 - 15 is quite a spread, and military hardware and technology being significantly higher than the civilian flavors, it's interesting that there hasn't been much improvement - health-wise, that is

But yes - the Marines: definitely awake and on patrol.

The Army.... perhaps a unit transfer from another sector; "deep storage" or caching of equipment in frontier areas (probably not... call up of local forces and reserves would cover it, I guess...)...

But as for career tracks... what exactly gets done on garrison duty? (maybe)... or a one year in three served as frozen watch with the Navy... perhaps something similar for the other forces...

 

[flykiller]

... what exactly gets done on garrison duty?

often, nothing. and usually that's the point of it. decompression, relaxation, maybe some training. or an army has more soldiers than it needs or can pay to keep in the field, but it doesn't want to let them go just yet, so it puts them in garrison where they don't cost as much but are still available. also I've spent many months on garrison duty while waiting for a scheduled school to start. think of it as a surge tank.

I'm still curious about the technology of low berthing...

the survival roll thing makes no sense at all, 'cept maybe in an emergency lowberth, so I completely ignore it. a full passenger/military lowberth should be as reliably survivable as minor surgery or no-one would ever use it.

 

[Patron Zero]

Mind a bit of cinematic influence from the film Aliens in my sentiments, that aside I can see troops being 'put under' for reasons of extensive travel time to deployment point and the 'savings' in support-consumables during such.

The larger question raised is there a soldier 'caste' so dedicated to being separated from said society they defend and in that devotion, willing to accept the hardships of 'temporal' displacement.

Again a film reference but such was presented in the film Soldier with Kurt Russel, it was unclear in that feature how troops were transported over long distances but clearly the mindset of duty was an above all directive.

Unrelated to the subject but in the film, Event Horizon, the crew of the rescue vessel Lewis and Clark also enter a form of stasis to cover periods of long travel.

 

[samuelvss]

Medical Fast Drug?

Given the OTU, Medical Fast makes much more sense than lowberths.

I disagree with flykiller that low berths would never get used if survival was not almost automatic; transports with comparable rates of survival were used throughout the vast majority of history. Passengers who need to travel and have tens of thousands would never pick low berths: low berths would be the province of the desperate, the ultimate steerage.

I accept what the OTU clearly holds about low berths, and so generally avoid them, particularly for troops. A cold watch is for the navy, and is itself an act of tactical desperation.

The downside of using medical fast is that people are higher maintenance: they are vulnerable, and therefore need attending. With the profusion of medics and the inherent discipline, command and control in a professional military, these are easily met challenges.

 

[far-trader]

Medical Fast Drug?

Given the OTU, Medical Fast makes much more sense than lowberths.

Medical Fast drug isn't ringing any bells here

Medical Slow drug yes. But I only know Fast drug and Fast Antidote, and you'll need both.

So first off there's the expense. Cr2000 per soldier each time. Add another Cr900 if you want the Antidote so you can come out sooner than 60 days. That'll quickly get more expensive than lowberths at Cr50,000 plus Cr100 per use. Somewhere around 20 uses if you include Antidote.

Second you aren't saving any space over lowberths. You might even need more since unlike lowberths the person will still need some minimal life support. At the very least you'll need a (non-low?) berth at a half ton and (just a wag) Cr25,000 (small craft couch life support) I'd say. So your price break point just got cut in about half. Somewhere around 10 uses and it's cheaper and takes the same space for a lowberth.

Third, depending how you read the rules it's not 100% safe either. Check the Synergy rules. The way I read it if you take the Anitidote you're looking at 1D6 x 1D6 hits to come out early. Or you're stuck waiting for the 60 days to end. Seems right, you're interupting the normal drug course and causing big stress to the body. So instead of a healed and ready fighter you have someone who needs a medic, or a coronor. It might even be worse odds than a lowberth.

It's not so much a solution as an alternative with much the same pros and cons, just diced a little differently.

 

[flykiller]

I disagree with flykiller that low berths would never get used if survival was not almost automatic; transports with comparable rates of survival were used throughout the vast majority of history. Passengers who need to travel and have tens of thousands would never pick low berths: low berths would be the province of the desperate, the ultimate steerage.

you know, you're right.

'course, that makes providing lowberths to desperate people unethical. traffiking in human flesh and all that. I can see a lowberth abolitionist movement. "uncle tom's lowberth." "the peculiar transportation." a downport called "harper's ferry". bleeding algine.