Twilight Canada
- Thread starter Arsulon
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I just finished reading Howling Wilderness and man, what a depressing read! Wiseman is at the top of his form but his scenario was a real nightmare: how the hell did enough of the former United States survive the great drought to be a serious contender in 2300?
No need to dust off the Nazis Jamus: T2K has their own home-grown version in the New America faction. As Wiseman points out in HW, if Hughes had survived New America could've dominated the ruins of the U.S. given their incredible level of preparedness (not to mention the Civgov and Milgov divide.) It might make an interesting alternate Twilight to have New America rise phoenix-like from the ashes as Hughes predicted: a powerful crypto-facsist state based on a slave-owning caste system.
No need to dust off the Nazis Jamus: T2K has their own home-grown version in the New America faction. As Wiseman points out in HW, if Hughes had survived New America could've dominated the ruins of the U.S. given their incredible level of preparedness (not to mention the Civgov and Milgov divide.) It might make an interesting alternate Twilight to have New America rise phoenix-like from the ashes as Hughes predicted: a powerful crypto-facsist state based on a slave-owning caste system.
"I know this may seem far fetched but if all else fails we could always dust of the Nazi party..say Nazis take over some nation and all hell breaks loose.. it is not beyond the realm of possibility."
Nazis from another dimension! A World is conquered by the Nazis during World War II. After consolidating their gains they discover that the World is not enough, so some Nazi scientists invent a dimensional transporter that only works at one of Earth's geomagnetic poles. In those locations Earth's magnetic lines of force make the boundaries between alternate histories especially thin. So the Third Reich sends in Panzer divisions, Fighter Aircraft and some Troops to conquer the next World over. The North magnetic pole just happens to be in Canada by the way. How would the Canadian Army deal with the invading transdimensional Nazis?
Nazis from another dimension! A World is conquered by the Nazis during World War II. After consolidating their gains they discover that the World is not enough, so some Nazi scientists invent a dimensional transporter that only works at one of Earth's geomagnetic poles. In those locations Earth's magnetic lines of force make the boundaries between alternate histories especially thin. So the Third Reich sends in Panzer divisions, Fighter Aircraft and some Troops to conquer the next World over. The North magnetic pole just happens to be in Canada by the way. How would the Canadian Army deal with the invading transdimensional Nazis?
lol
I was thinking something a little more home grown.
Nazi party is big in both france and italy atm and there are many national socialist organizations in the US as well as world wide.
say one of these groups has spent years infiltrating the US government and manages to get personel in key positions to attempt a coup.
rebellion breaks out... then say the Nazis have gain control of nuclear facilities in oklahoma and let a few out of the bag..
WW3 IMO
I was thinking something a little more home grown.
Nazi party is big in both france and italy atm and there are many national socialist organizations in the US as well as world wide.
say one of these groups has spent years infiltrating the US government and manages to get personel in key positions to attempt a coup.
rebellion breaks out... then say the Nazis have gain control of nuclear facilities in oklahoma and let a few out of the bag..
WW3 IMO
The Nazis would get no traction in our society, they don't have a constituency here. People who are antisemites here get to be called things like "Arab lover" and so forth. With a bunch of anti-semites killing Americans, they'll never amount to much more than a few kooks in uniform to be tolerated for the purposes of political freedom only as long as they don't cause us too much trouble. To have World War III you need an organized enemy in control of a nation. A small group of nazis in the US is not going to be able to seize control of the US, no matter how many hostages they take. The US Government is very pro-Israel, any Nazi infiltrator is going to have to tow the line on that or be suspected of being a Nazi or a pro-Arab sympathizer, either way they are not going to rise very high in the US government. Many leftish sort of countries may wish to portray the US government as Nazi-like as cover for their own pro-Arab stances, but that is propaganda not reality. Nazism is tainted, its associated with Death Camps and the killings of large numbers of Jews, if people don't mind such obvious evil, then they may support a Nazi movement, but there are not a large number of such people in the US. Even Arab countries and countries that commit genocide of the own like to lable the US as Nazis in order to paint us a villains whenever we criticise their human rights violations. I call these paper Nazis in that they exist only on paper whenever someone is trying to paint someone they don't like as the villian. The mass-murdering Serbs called us Nazis for instance.
Some other movement might be the equivalent of Nazis, but they wouldn't dare refer to themselves as Nazis. If Nazis are to be a real threat, they have to come from an alternate reality and be backed by a powerful Empire from that reality. Some gizmo is then required to get them to our reality so we can fight them.
Some other movement might be the equivalent of Nazis, but they wouldn't dare refer to themselves as Nazis. If Nazis are to be a real threat, they have to come from an alternate reality and be backed by a powerful Empire from that reality. Some gizmo is then required to get them to our reality so we can fight them.
You are confusing icing and cake.
The KKK and the Nazis are essentially the same thing. It wasn't that long ago that the Klan were entirely mainstream and part of the establishment in a large part of the US. Their power was mostly broken, but the social base for their kind of politics remains.
While they were anti-semites, that wasn't the main emphasis of their politics.
These days, in the US, and in most western countries, a fascist style movement would be less likely to be particularly anti-semitic, and more likely to be anti-Arab. After all, the latter are official enemies, and immigrants from Islamic countries are "appropriate" targets for racist scapegoating.
A good example of this is the National Front in France. Another one, perhaps more relevant to the US, are the various Unionist terrorist organisations in Northern Ireland. They see themselves very firmly on the side of Israel, and their Republican opponents on the side of the Palestinians. But the Unionists are fascists in every significant respect...
All countries have the potential to spawn fascist style movements. Their precise characteristics will vary. It makes no sense to say that just because a particular characteristic is missing, they can not exist.
Yes, you are correct that German style Nazis aren't likely to gain much of a base in the US, but US style fascists are entirely possible. And so are Australia style fascists in Australia, New Zealand style fascists in New Zealand, Canadian style fascists in Canada, Swedish style fascists in Sweden, and so on...
alanb said,
The Nazis can also play upon sympathies for the Palestinians and the supposed tyranny of the Jewish state, then they can say that there is a Jewish conspiracy to take over the German government and that the Jewish threat must be eliminated if Germans are to be free. Many Germans are rooting for the Iraqi terrorists against Americans, it can be too hard for Nazis to come to power again in Germany if they play their cards right.
but a Nazi would be suspected of sympathizing with the "enemy" because Nazis are well known for their anti-semitism people will also be reminded of the attack on the World Trade Center and the Federal Bulding bombing in Oklahoma, their loyalty to the country will be suspect by the population at large and any right-wing nationalistic movement will flounder if they can't convince the public that they are "Patriotic" enough to be elected or for the public to stand aside while the engineer a military coup. The public will immediately see them as the enemy as soon as they call themselves Nazis, will fight them tooth and nail. The problem with Nazism is that they have to convince people that their is a Jewish conspiracy and that Jews are responsible for this and that, this flying in the face of ample evidence of Arab groups being responsible for terrorist attacks. Any rightwing groups will have to play on popular predjudices and Nazis ignore this and drag out their own tired, warmed over antisemitism that no American would take seriously unless he is an Arab or a Muslim and their are not enough of those to take over the country. Nazism is also invented in a foreign country and is not home grown or made in America. Perhaps Germans would be more suseptable to this ideology as its popular to hate Americans in that country and Nazis fought a war against America.
The Nazis can also play upon sympathies for the Palestinians and the supposed tyranny of the Jewish state, then they can say that there is a Jewish conspiracy to take over the German government and that the Jewish threat must be eliminated if Germans are to be free. Many Germans are rooting for the Iraqi terrorists against Americans, it can be too hard for Nazis to come to power again in Germany if they play their cards right.
I agree with the above, but Canadian Facists would find themselves in big trouble if they tried to invade the US. The US might invade Canada however. the best chance US facism has would be in reaction to Anti-Americanism abroad. If Anti-Americans are perceived as unfair or biased against Americans, then Americans might come to think that their good works and deeds don't matter as Americans will be hated no matter what they do, after this they might conluded that any action the US takes could be justified in the face of anti-US predjudice. So if the US really commits and atrocity in a foreign country and other countries complain, that will just be chalked up as yet more unjustified Anti-American propaganda and taken with a grain of salt. In short: "They hate us when were good; They hate us when were bad; so lets be bad and grab what we can for our country.
The only problem with the idea of a military coup in the US is that the military is not a political entity in the US. Sure, it lobbies for projects and equipment, but it has no political power. The US federal military cannot even act as police in the civilian sector (the National Guard is state-level, and so can be used by the state govenors for policing in times of civil disturbance). I seriously doubt most service men in the US would support a military coup like you see in third-world countries.
Ok, it might be possible, but I think the military leadership would be likely to sit most things out, and wait for the next election. Hard to say, the like has never happened in the US, hopefully never will. One of the nice things about the US: if you don't like the current leadership, wait four years.
Is Russia first or third world? Should be first world, even though there's a few areas that would be more like third world.
Is Russia first or third world? Should be first world, even though there's a few areas that would be more like third world.
The trouble is that the candidates policies might be so diasterous that you won't get another 4 years. What if the US President decides to totally disarm? What if he as commander and chief orders the US Armed forces to surrender to North Korea? All of them! He even ships soldiers over from the States so they can surrender to the North Koreans. Do you think the generals would stand for that or follow orders? Remember, the US armed forces haven't been defeated, they were just ordered to surrender by the US President for no apparent reason.
More to the point, this situation could never happen.
The US electoral system is fixed to ensure that only the right people ever get to be serious candidates.
The fixing in the US is actually more blatant than the fixing in other First World countries.
For what it's worth: a coup was plotted against Roosevelt in the 30's. Unfortunately for the plotters (Henry Ford and a bunch of similar robber barons), the military commander they approached - Smedley Butler - blew the whistle on them.
The resulting scandal resulted in: nothing. Apparently it's legal to attempt to incite the armed forces to overthrow a democratically elected government in the US, if you are rich enough.
Macarthur was in the Philippines at the time. Many people have wondered what would have happened if he had been the general approached to lead the coup...
The US electoral system is fixed to ensure that only the right people ever get to be serious candidates.
The fixing in the US is actually more blatant than the fixing in other First World countries.
For what it's worth: a coup was plotted against Roosevelt in the 30's. Unfortunately for the plotters (Henry Ford and a bunch of similar robber barons), the military commander they approached - Smedley Butler - blew the whistle on them.
The resulting scandal resulted in: nothing. Apparently it's legal to attempt to incite the armed forces to overthrow a democratically elected government in the US, if you are rich enough.
Macarthur was in the Philippines at the time. Many people have wondered what would have happened if he had been the general approached to lead the coup...
I don't believe any US military officer at that time would have supported a military coup, including MacArthur. Many officers would not even vote in elections becaused they believed that was a sign of partisanship. They were proud of the US military decision to stay out of politics. Thank General Washington for that tradition.
If there is a military coup it would probarbly come from the National Guard. There all the officers above the rank of 2nd LT are political appointments of the State Governors.
When the US Army is mostly deployed overseas, the remaining non-federalized could seize Washington DC and other Federal sites.
The is what happened to Federal property in 1860 before Fort Sumter. State troops obeyed the orders of their Governors and not the President.
If there is a military coup it would probarbly come from the National Guard. There all the officers above the rank of 2nd LT are political appointments of the State Governors.
When the US Army is mostly deployed overseas, the remaining non-federalized could seize Washington DC and other Federal sites.
The is what happened to Federal property in 1860 before Fort Sumter. State troops obeyed the orders of their Governors and not the President.
I don't believe any US military officer at that time would have supported a military coup, including MacArthur. Many officers would not even vote in elections becaused they believed that was a sign of partisanship. They were proud of the US military decision to stay out of politics. Thank General Washington for that tradition.
If there is a military coup it would probarbly come from the National Guard. There all the officers above the rank of 2nd LT are political appointments of the State Governors.
When the US Army is mostly deployed overseas, the remaining non-federalized could seize Washington DC and other Federal sites.
The is what happened to Federal property in 1860 before Fort Sumter. State troops obeyed the orders of their Governors and not the President.
If there is a military coup it would probarbly come from the National Guard. There all the officers above the rank of 2nd LT are political appointments of the State Governors.
When the US Army is mostly deployed overseas, the remaining non-federalized could seize Washington DC and other Federal sites.
The is what happened to Federal property in 1860 before Fort Sumter. State troops obeyed the orders of their Governors and not the President.
Alanb said,
What if the President of the United States was a traitor, and he somehow managed to fool the American people into electing him by claiming to be someone else.
What if a Presidential candidate gets careless in selecting his vice presidential candidate and selects a Mexican-American to get the Latino vote. What if this vice President turned out to be more Mexican than America, to be sure he was born in the United States, but his loyalty was technically with Mexico. Seeing that the Southwestern portion of the US once belonged to Mexico, he hatches a sceme to have the President die while in office so he can take over as President. While President, he arranges to make it possible to transfer the southwestern states back to Mexico. Gives the President of Mexico a call and says send your army in. Then he orders the US armed forces to remain in their barracks and do nothing while the Mexican Army takes over. Congress and the Senate protest and begin impeachment proceedings. Meanwhile the Mexican Army moves in and the President interferes with the ability of the Defense Department to stop them. The choice of the Defense department is whether to obey the President while he is president. Some Generals may have other ideas.
it is improbable to be sure, but then so is World War II. I estimate that there is less than a 2% chance of a nuclear war getting started at any given year. But never say never.
What if the President of the United States was a traitor, and he somehow managed to fool the American people into electing him by claiming to be someone else.
What if a Presidential candidate gets careless in selecting his vice presidential candidate and selects a Mexican-American to get the Latino vote. What if this vice President turned out to be more Mexican than America, to be sure he was born in the United States, but his loyalty was technically with Mexico. Seeing that the Southwestern portion of the US once belonged to Mexico, he hatches a sceme to have the President die while in office so he can take over as President. While President, he arranges to make it possible to transfer the southwestern states back to Mexico. Gives the President of Mexico a call and says send your army in. Then he orders the US armed forces to remain in their barracks and do nothing while the Mexican Army takes over. Congress and the Senate protest and begin impeachment proceedings. Meanwhile the Mexican Army moves in and the President interferes with the ability of the Defense Department to stop them. The choice of the Defense department is whether to obey the President while he is president. Some Generals may have other ideas.
Responding to these points in reverse order...
Serious candidates for US president, or vice-president, do not fall out of the sky. They invariably have track records, and usually firm family ties with "the establishment". Bush and Kerry are perfect examples, of course. They are even related to each other!
For a "traitor" to become US president, they would have had to have been "undercover" for decades, acting as a loyal citizen and (usually) politician. This is fairly unlikely, outside the more lurid spy novels.
As for your "less than a 2% chance of a nuclear war getting started at any given year" - this probablility actually says that a nuclear war is pretty llikely, and probably rather soon. It does not say that a nuclear war is unlikely. In fact, you are probably correct, although a generalised nuclear exchange is much less likely than a small scale one, or one that is one-sided.
Finally, what was improbable about WWII? Germany was going to reassert itself sooner or later. Italy was a ball of frustrated ambitions after WWI. Japan and the US were on a collision course in the Pacific, and sooner or later, somebody was going to invade the Soviet Union. For that matter, the balance of power between Britain, France and the US was shifting too.
The war was "inevitable" (highly probable) . It's exact configuration wasn't.
