UGM vs. CTI vs. MT/DGP

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Border Reiver:
My bad, forgot to put the smileys in, meant that the game is there, the rules aren't that bad.

Cool. I thought maybe we had a problem--you came across pretty strong.

All forgotten now.

2.55% doesn't seem great probability but seems quite high for an unskilled person at an impossible task. More than one in a hundred chance and they crop up nine times out of ten.

I like the idea that anybody, no matter how lowly skills or in natural ability, can get lucky every once in a blue moon. I think that's a feature of CTI.

2.55% of the time--you won't see it that often. But, if gives everyone a shot (kinda like being a 1st level character in D&D and still getting an opportunity of hitting the dragon if a 20 is roll...except in this case, it would be the equivalent of 2 20's in a row).

Maybe that's just me, but I think a 2.55% chance for an Level-0 person to make an Impossible roll is fair.

We playtested CTI with two seperate adventures.

Cool. Thanks for posting this. I like to hear feedback like this, whether in favor or disfavor of CTI.

Already the first arguments began, "so the red is skill and white the task or the other way round? Wait look I rolled a double five and I fail? No I want to keep rolling because I want to see how many more sixes I can hit." Seems childish but manging change at an RP session makes restructuring a multi-national company look easy.

Second session we used Rapid Repo from MT Journal. CTI fitted in nicely with the Megatraveller ruleset but colour confusion continued (idiots but they'll not mind me saying, we had by this time added alcohol to the equation).

In my game, we use a die with regular numbers on it for the skill die and dots for for the Task die.

This way, there is absolutely no argument as to which is the Task die and which is the skill die.

If there is a die on the table with a regular number on it (not dots), then it is the skill die, no question.


If I were using colors, the way you did, I'd make sure I had enough of one color for every player and ban that color from being used for anything else but as the Skill Die.

For example, if the red die is the skill die, then the only die on the table that represents a skill die will be red and no other red dice are allowed.

If you do things that way, there are no arguments and no confusion.

Just a suggestion.

So we tried 1D rolled twice, skill then task. This slowed things down.

Absolultely. I wouldn't want to roll them separately.


Little side note--

CTI started life as a 1 die system. The system can still be played that way. The idea behind it was a higher roll meant higher damage.

I use the one roll (quick series of rolls) for the to-hit, the damage, and the hit location.

My reasoning for this was to avoid the "I rolled boxcars and got a Level-6 skill! But, I rolled my 3D damage and only rolled 3 ones!"

This other version of CTI, the one die CTI, used the amount rolled over the target number as a base damage, with weapon adding a few more.

For example, if a 10 was needed to hit, and a 14 was thrown, then 4 points of damage occurred plus 3 points from the AutoRifle, for a total of 7 points of damage.

That's a cool version of CTI, but I've refrained from listing it here on the forum.

Additional rolls added to the general clunkiness but I can honestly say that what annoyed most was the skill roll. Those with level 3 & 4 skills were annoyed that a second roll of 1 or two was less than previous skill DMs and a high roll of 5 was a fail.

Just to add we have our own house fix for MT attribute failings we have used for years and years.

ATT 2-4 gives -1DM
ATT 5-7 no DM
ATT 8-A gives +1DM
ATT B-E gives +2DM
ATT F gives +3DM

Not much difference really but we're all quite happy with it.

Well, if it floats your boat, then it floats your boat.

Have you looked at UGM?

That's a system that will do basically the same thing that CTI does for stats (evens the benefit out) but doesn't use assigned dice.

Since CTI is not doing it for ya, you might want to test drive UGM and get away from the stat problems in MT and MT tweaks.

UGM is: Roll 2D add mods for 8+.

Pretty simple. Your Traveller veterans probably won't have as much problem with UGM as they did with CTI.

As far as snake eyes is concerned as someone that plays Traveller and rolls as many dice a you have done you must know that probability never seems to equate with what is actually rolled.

Now, brother, I was with you until you said that.

Probability is probability. If you roll 2D, you're only going to roll snake eyes an average of five times out of two hundred throws throws.

It's probability. It will equate to what is actually thrown.

Keep with it, it works for you and it will work for others. I think it is a good system otherwise we wouldn't have tested it but not for our group. We are going to give it one more chance though, this time there will be a brainstorming beforehand to see if there are any modifications we can think of ( and not just let's stick with MT ).

Excellent. That's real nice of you to mention.

Please, let me know how it goes the second time around--even if the verdict is still "no CTI".

I like to hear that kind of thing.

Two recommendations from above:

(Recommendation 1) If you do in fact try CTI again, then definitely make it completely clear to all at the table what the skill die is. Don't let each player choose his own Skill Die. That will just lead to arugments. Pick a single color, or use a very big or very small die, or do what I do and use a die with regular numbers on it.

Whatever you choose, the Skill die needs to be unmistakable on the table--so that there is no discussion.

The task die can be the player's favorite die, or whatever. But, I strongly believe, being around RPGers most of my life, that when a specific die is called for, it's got to be unmistakeable on the table.

I learned this playing WEG'S STAR WARS game (and excellent game and game system, BTW). That (non-d20) system uses a Wild Die. And, it was always an issue about what was rolled on the wild die until I started enforcing the rule that a die with regular numbers had to be used for the Wild Die, while the other dice had to use standard "dots".

After that, there was never another discussion about the result of the Wild Die.

If you do something like that with the Skill die in CTI, then the game will be much, much smoother--believe me.


(Recommendation 2) Since you've had two bad goes with CTI, why don't you give UGM a try?

I bet that will be a lot more palatable to your group. There's no assigned die. And, you still get the differentation between stats that MT doesn't give you.

Give that one a shot. You might like it better than CTI.

But it will be at least another week before the next shot and we will let you know how it goes.

Please do. Good or bad, I would like to hear how it went.

Quite frankly if this became an official task system I think that no-one would blink at it, it is good. It just needs time.

Thanks man. That's exceptional of you to say. I really appreciate that.

I think you're probably right, too. I mean, people are going to bitch no matter if you gave them solid gold on a plate. But, I do think, if either CTI or UGM were an official system, then it would get mass adoption by mucho Traveller players.

As it is, it's there if Traveller GMs care to use it.

And if not, it's working for me and my group.

I don't know how much playtesting it has actually underwent but we will test to destruction.

Gotta call, gotta go

Excellent, excellent.

Thanks for posting.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Border Reiver:
My bad, forgot to put the smileys in, meant that the game is there, the rules aren't that bad.

Cool. I thought maybe we had a problem--you came across pretty strong.

All forgotten now.

2.55% doesn't seem great probability but seems quite high for an unskilled person at an impossible task. More than one in a hundred chance and they crop up nine times out of ten.

I like the idea that anybody, no matter how lowly skills or in natural ability, can get lucky every once in a blue moon. I think that's a feature of CTI.

2.55% of the time--you won't see it that often. But, if gives everyone a shot (kinda like being a 1st level character in D&D and still getting an opportunity of hitting the dragon if a 20 is roll...except in this case, it would be the equivalent of 2 20's in a row).

Maybe that's just me, but I think a 2.55% chance for an Level-0 person to make an Impossible roll is fair.

We playtested CTI with two seperate adventures.

Cool. Thanks for posting this. I like to hear feedback like this, whether in favor or disfavor of CTI.

Already the first arguments began, "so the red is skill and white the task or the other way round? Wait look I rolled a double five and I fail? No I want to keep rolling because I want to see how many more sixes I can hit." Seems childish but manging change at an RP session makes restructuring a multi-national company look easy.

Second session we used Rapid Repo from MT Journal. CTI fitted in nicely with the Megatraveller ruleset but colour confusion continued (idiots but they'll not mind me saying, we had by this time added alcohol to the equation).

In my game, we use a die with regular numbers on it for the skill die and dots for for the Task die.

This way, there is absolutely no argument as to which is the Task die and which is the skill die.

If there is a die on the table with a regular number on it (not dots), then it is the skill die, no question.


If I were using colors, the way you did, I'd make sure I had enough of one color for every player and ban that color from being used for anything else but as the Skill Die.

For example, if the red die is the skill die, then the only die on the table that represents a skill die will be red and no other red dice are allowed.

If you do things that way, there are no arguments and no confusion.

Just a suggestion.

So we tried 1D rolled twice, skill then task. This slowed things down.

Absolultely. I wouldn't want to roll them separately.


Little side note--

CTI started life as a 1 die system. The system can still be played that way. The idea behind it was a higher roll meant higher damage.

I use the one roll (quick series of rolls) for the to-hit, the damage, and the hit location.

My reasoning for this was to avoid the "I rolled boxcars and got a Level-6 skill! But, I rolled my 3D damage and only rolled 3 ones!"

This other version of CTI, the one die CTI, used the amount rolled over the target number as a base damage, with weapon adding a few more.

For example, if a 10 was needed to hit, and a 14 was thrown, then 4 points of damage occurred plus 3 points from the AutoRifle, for a total of 7 points of damage.

That's a cool version of CTI, but I've refrained from listing it here on the forum.

Additional rolls added to the general clunkiness but I can honestly say that what annoyed most was the skill roll. Those with level 3 & 4 skills were annoyed that a second roll of 1 or two was less than previous skill DMs and a high roll of 5 was a fail.

Just to add we have our own house fix for MT attribute failings we have used for years and years.

ATT 2-4 gives -1DM
ATT 5-7 no DM
ATT 8-A gives +1DM
ATT B-E gives +2DM
ATT F gives +3DM

Not much difference really but we're all quite happy with it.

Well, if it floats your boat, then it floats your boat.

Have you looked at UGM?

That's a system that will do basically the same thing that CTI does for stats (evens the benefit out) but doesn't use assigned dice.

Since CTI is not doing it for ya, you might want to test drive UGM and get away from the stat problems in MT and MT tweaks.

UGM is: Roll 2D add mods for 8+.

Pretty simple. Your Traveller veterans probably won't have as much problem with UGM as they did with CTI.

As far as snake eyes is concerned as someone that plays Traveller and rolls as many dice a you have done you must know that probability never seems to equate with what is actually rolled.

Now, brother, I was with you until you said that.

Probability is probability. If you roll 2D, you're only going to roll snake eyes an average of five times out of two hundred throws throws.

It's probability. It will equate to what is actually thrown.

Keep with it, it works for you and it will work for others. I think it is a good system otherwise we wouldn't have tested it but not for our group. We are going to give it one more chance though, this time there will be a brainstorming beforehand to see if there are any modifications we can think of ( and not just let's stick with MT ).

Excellent. That's real nice of you to mention.

Please, let me know how it goes the second time around--even if the verdict is still "no CTI".

I like to hear that kind of thing.

Two recommendations from above:

(Recommendation 1) If you do in fact try CTI again, then definitely make it completely clear to all at the table what the skill die is. Don't let each player choose his own Skill Die. That will just lead to arugments. Pick a single color, or use a very big or very small die, or do what I do and use a die with regular numbers on it.

Whatever you choose, the Skill die needs to be unmistakable on the table--so that there is no discussion.

The task die can be the player's favorite die, or whatever. But, I strongly believe, being around RPGers most of my life, that when a specific die is called for, it's got to be unmistakeable on the table.

I learned this playing WEG'S STAR WARS game (and excellent game and game system, BTW). That (non-d20) system uses a Wild Die. And, it was always an issue about what was rolled on the wild die until I started enforcing the rule that a die with regular numbers had to be used for the Wild Die, while the other dice had to use standard "dots".

After that, there was never another discussion about the result of the Wild Die.

If you do something like that with the Skill die in CTI, then the game will be much, much smoother--believe me.


(Recommendation 2) Since you've had two bad goes with CTI, why don't you give UGM a try?

I bet that will be a lot more palatable to your group. There's no assigned die. And, you still get the differentation between stats that MT doesn't give you.

Give that one a shot. You might like it better than CTI.

But it will be at least another week before the next shot and we will let you know how it goes.

Please do. Good or bad, I would like to hear how it went.

Quite frankly if this became an official task system I think that no-one would blink at it, it is good. It just needs time.

Thanks man. That's exceptional of you to say. I really appreciate that.

I think you're probably right, too. I mean, people are going to bitch no matter if you gave them solid gold on a plate. But, I do think, if either CTI or UGM were an official system, then it would get mass adoption by mucho Traveller players.

As it is, it's there if Traveller GMs care to use it.

And if not, it's working for me and my group.

I don't know how much playtesting it has actually underwent but we will test to destruction.

Gotta call, gotta go

Excellent, excellent.

Thanks for posting.