Basically, how viable do you think a starship engaging in a trader-style campaign might be, if it simply doesn't bother with turrets at all? Would it be manageable within more civilized (i.e. less pirate-plagued) subsectors, or is it simply asking to be blown out of the sky no matter what?
Unarmed PC starships?
- Thread starter faherman
- Start date
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
Depends how evil the Ref is 
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
What Andrew said :smirk:
Only an evil ref would plague the PCs with armed conflict when they don't have any. I'm probably guilty, well not guilty, I mean if I did it I don't feel any guilt :devil:
What was the question?
Ah, right. It should be very viable, and more profitable. It should be fine in civilized systems, even expected. And as far as being blown out of the sky, even pirates wouldn't do that, they want something for their "hard work" after all, and if the PCs are unarmed so much the easier and possibly more reasonable. They may just say "look, you got nothing to threaten us with, let us have a few tons of cargo, call it a toll, and you can be on your way. Mess with us and we'll mess you up."[FONT=arial,helvetica]
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Anyway, imtu (and the CT OTU) generally as long as you stay away from the poorer starports (Class C and worse) you shouldn't have to face pirates (per the encounter table anyway). Of course...
...in MTU I roll reactions and well, as in a recent solo-game, sometimes you find you have enemies you never knew existed and they get all crazy and open fire without warning even in the best of systems. And yes I had no weapons, couldn't afford them yet if I wanted them. And now I do want them. Of course the misjump in running away has given me some time and distance.
From a strictly business perspective, turrets and gunners cost money, money that eats into profits, especially when you are unlikely to need them.
Not sure any of that helps much.
Only an evil ref would plague the PCs with armed conflict when they don't have any. I'm probably guilty, well not guilty, I mean if I did it I don't feel any guilt :devil:
What was the question?
Ah, right. It should be very viable, and more profitable. It should be fine in civilized systems, even expected. And as far as being blown out of the sky, even pirates wouldn't do that, they want something for their "hard work" after all, and if the PCs are unarmed so much the easier and possibly more reasonable. They may just say "look, you got nothing to threaten us with, let us have a few tons of cargo, call it a toll, and you can be on your way. Mess with us and we'll mess you up."[FONT=arial,helvetica]
[/FONT]
Anyway, imtu (and the CT OTU) generally as long as you stay away from the poorer starports (Class C and worse) you shouldn't have to face pirates (per the encounter table anyway). Of course...
...in MTU I roll reactions and well, as in a recent solo-game, sometimes you find you have enemies you never knew existed and they get all crazy and open fire without warning even in the best of systems. And yes I had no weapons, couldn't afford them yet if I wanted them. And now I do want them. Of course the misjump in running away has given me some time and distance.
From a strictly business perspective, turrets and gunners cost money, money that eats into profits, especially when you are unlikely to need them.
Not sure any of that helps much.
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When my group of Travellers started out they were able to acquire an old beat up Free Trader. It had no weapons except the for the ACR that belonged to the retired Marine Colonel who was hired on as Security Chief.
I could have been a bastage but they played it smart and stayed more to the core worlds of the Marches where law levels were higher and Pirates along with other malcontents were much more scarce. As they progressed and after talking it over with a few old traders, they decided that if they were going to make anywhere near the money they needed they were going to have to take more risk, i.e. travel to the fringes where risk is high and so is the pay. It was only then did they finally have a triple turret installed (yet another loan to be payed).
They have been lucky thus far only having to use their shiny new weapon system in anger but twice. However, where they have decided to go next in their speculative trade quest for the big bucks will likely leave them wishing they had installed a second triple turret.
In short, yeah, it is perfectly fine unless you as the ref dictate otherwise and want to go all referee evil on them. :devil: Sure let them get comfortable running in the safe lanes without weapons. Then let them "forget" that it might be a good thing to have them when they start traveling in not so safe areas. :smirk:
Jerry
I could have been a bastage but they played it smart and stayed more to the core worlds of the Marches where law levels were higher and Pirates along with other malcontents were much more scarce. As they progressed and after talking it over with a few old traders, they decided that if they were going to make anywhere near the money they needed they were going to have to take more risk, i.e. travel to the fringes where risk is high and so is the pay. It was only then did they finally have a triple turret installed (yet another loan to be payed).
They have been lucky thus far only having to use their shiny new weapon system in anger but twice. However, where they have decided to go next in their speculative trade quest for the big bucks will likely leave them wishing they had installed a second triple turret.
In short, yeah, it is perfectly fine unless you as the ref dictate otherwise and want to go all referee evil on them. :devil: Sure let them get comfortable running in the safe lanes without weapons. Then let them "forget" that it might be a good thing to have them when they start traveling in not so safe areas. :smirk:
Jerry
IMTU so long as you are inside the Imperial borders you won't have to worry too much about piracy. At least not the kind that you'd need to arm your ship to fight - mainly it'd be "misplaced" cargo in the warehouse, theft, crime on the ground or the rare hijacking.
Outside the borders then it depends on the subsector and route. Naturally, the farther you get from clustered worlds with short routes and heavy traffic the more likely it will be that you will encounter trouble and rare is the captain that doesn't arm his ship with at least 1 turret. Some areas you'd better have 2 and a spare. Sometimes you can't even trust the other merchant captains. And IMTU there are several small clusters Out There that make you pay a "toll" for passing through "their" space. If you don't want to, or can't afford the toll they might decide to take it out of your ship so you'll want guns, a fast ship, or both when travelling near those places.
But as has been said, its a matter of economics, too. The long line freighters don't stray far from established and protected routes so they don't carry weapons. Their profit margins are thin enough and they are insured. If pirates board one the crew will just hand over all the cargo the pirates can carry, but the pirates who have survived long enough also know that either the insurance company will send someone out after them to get the company's investment back, or the government will send some corvettes out. The pirate will be made an example of, but most might want to take their chances with the navy finding them first.
Or, the merchant house will start sending private escorts out and that hurts everyone's profits - pirates' and merchants' alike. The end result is the same, the pirates are eliminated and things calm down.
So life on the Rim is a little more exciting and dangerous the farther you get from civilized space. There are even some Free Traders that are kind of a toss up if you try to decide whether they are a pirate or not - Free Trading is a highly competitive business outside civilization. But that's why players always seem to find themselves there IMTU.
It's akin to the search and catch paradigm in predator behavior: the predator spends energy searching for prey and spends energy catching that prey. The problem is not having to spend so much energy finding a prey item that you are too tired to catch it without getting hurt, or too tired out to have the energy to search for another prey item after the first escapes/ hurts you badly/ or didn't have enough meat to replace the calories lost finding and killing it. Or getting hurt and tired enough that you become prey yourself. So you go where the zebras are and look for the slow one, or the one on the edge of the herd that's too far from the herd for protection and grab that one.
You stay far away from the alert-looking zebras with laser turrets because those ones are too much trouble.
Outside the borders then it depends on the subsector and route. Naturally, the farther you get from clustered worlds with short routes and heavy traffic the more likely it will be that you will encounter trouble and rare is the captain that doesn't arm his ship with at least 1 turret. Some areas you'd better have 2 and a spare. Sometimes you can't even trust the other merchant captains. And IMTU there are several small clusters Out There that make you pay a "toll" for passing through "their" space. If you don't want to, or can't afford the toll they might decide to take it out of your ship so you'll want guns, a fast ship, or both when travelling near those places.
But as has been said, its a matter of economics, too. The long line freighters don't stray far from established and protected routes so they don't carry weapons. Their profit margins are thin enough and they are insured. If pirates board one the crew will just hand over all the cargo the pirates can carry, but the pirates who have survived long enough also know that either the insurance company will send someone out after them to get the company's investment back, or the government will send some corvettes out. The pirate will be made an example of, but most might want to take their chances with the navy finding them first.
Or, the merchant house will start sending private escorts out and that hurts everyone's profits - pirates' and merchants' alike. The end result is the same, the pirates are eliminated and things calm down.
So life on the Rim is a little more exciting and dangerous the farther you get from civilized space. There are even some Free Traders that are kind of a toss up if you try to decide whether they are a pirate or not - Free Trading is a highly competitive business outside civilization. But that's why players always seem to find themselves there IMTU.
It's akin to the search and catch paradigm in predator behavior: the predator spends energy searching for prey and spends energy catching that prey. The problem is not having to spend so much energy finding a prey item that you are too tired to catch it without getting hurt, or too tired out to have the energy to search for another prey item after the first escapes/ hurts you badly/ or didn't have enough meat to replace the calories lost finding and killing it. Or getting hurt and tired enough that you become prey yourself. So you go where the zebras are and look for the slow one, or the one on the edge of the herd that's too far from the herd for protection and grab that one.
You stay far away from the alert-looking zebras with laser turrets because those ones are too much trouble.
Ran Targas
SOC-14 1K
I'm of the opinion that just putting weapons on a ship might have dramatic affects to the reception you get at civilized starports. I can imagine the local Federales paying particular attention to your comings and goings, making sure you don't exercise your batteries anywhere in their jurisdiction. You may even find that the skies are relatively empty when you come and go as other ship captains just don't want to take the chance.
It may also result in a counterintuitive rise in the cost of operating or cargo insurance; it could be construed that you wander off the beaten path on occassion and perhaps stick your nose into business you shouldn't. Insurance companies prefer nice, peaceful, law abiding clients who rely on the Imperium for protection and don't need big guns.
That said, I would play it that shipboard weapons aren't a necessity and going unarmed may have some benefits in civilized space but away from the primary routes, the dangers increase slightly. On the frontier or border regions, things get a bit more dicey and arming your ship could only be considered a business expense. I guess the best analogy would be the Old West where carrying a pistol in town is asking for unwanted attention and perhaps a lot of trouble but in the country it would only get a second glance.
It may also result in a counterintuitive rise in the cost of operating or cargo insurance; it could be construed that you wander off the beaten path on occassion and perhaps stick your nose into business you shouldn't. Insurance companies prefer nice, peaceful, law abiding clients who rely on the Imperium for protection and don't need big guns.
That said, I would play it that shipboard weapons aren't a necessity and going unarmed may have some benefits in civilized space but away from the primary routes, the dangers increase slightly. On the frontier or border regions, things get a bit more dicey and arming your ship could only be considered a business expense. I guess the best analogy would be the Old West where carrying a pistol in town is asking for unwanted attention and perhaps a lot of trouble but in the country it would only get a second glance.
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There are currently no armed merchant ships in my campaign.
The setting's main world is a hostile planet undergoing terraforming, and
the population has to live in closed habitats until the terraforming succee-
ded.
A single hit by a starship weapon could breach a habitat's hull and kill its
entire population, so armed merchant ships would not even be allowed to
enter the planet's air space.
The crew of an armed merchant ship would therefore have to use an unar-
med small craft to transfer passengers and cargo between the orbit and
the planetary surface, and this would be both expensive and time consu-
ming.
The setting's main world is a hostile planet undergoing terraforming, and
the population has to live in closed habitats until the terraforming succee-
ded.
A single hit by a starship weapon could breach a habitat's hull and kill its
entire population, so armed merchant ships would not even be allowed to
enter the planet's air space.
The crew of an armed merchant ship would therefore have to use an unar-
med small craft to transfer passengers and cargo between the orbit and
the planetary surface, and this would be both expensive and time consu-
ming.
weaponed ships in high tech level systems
Thinking more on this you'd probably have the customs stopping every ship in orbit and inspecting. Perhaps even having an officer and marines along for the entry.
Popups are one way to hide weapons in system. I think that would be the only solution for local police.
Thinking more on this you'd probably have the customs stopping every ship in orbit and inspecting. Perhaps even having an officer and marines along for the entry.
Popups are one way to hide weapons in system. I think that would be the only solution for local police.
I agree, this is how I treat it IMTU: Civilian craft are not usually armored or heavily armed. Missiles are technically ok for civilians, but might get you extra attention from local law enforcement. Missile racks just seem so aggressive for a Free trader you see. It’s like having a gun rack in your pickup but instead of a shotgun or hunting rifle you have an AK-47 – it’s not exactly illegal but it raises eyebrows and scares the locals.
Lasers are considered to be more defensive in nature and are not viewed as quite so threatening. Lasers don’t cause a lot of damage, can be used to intercept missiles, used for communications in a pinch….so there are more "excuses" to have them on your Free Trader.
...and Mail Packets, and merchants who are contracted to carry mail, are always armed no matter where they go. The rules say they have to be, so if there are some local laws in your universe that make it hard to carry weapons in the turrets, that could be a way for a clever captain to get to equip his ship with weapons.
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
That rather depends on where you live, old chap.
It might be legal in one system but not in another. There could be places where any form of 'gun rack' is illegal.
Very true. But that would be a boring universe in my opinion. All those fine combat rules going to waste!
And the players need something to spend all those Credits on, like repairs, missiles, fines for using said missiles in traffic corridors and endangering other ships, ticked-off captains in downrange ships that were hit by laser beams that missed the target....
And the players need something to spend all those Credits on, like repairs, missiles, fines for using said missiles in traffic corridors and endangering other ships, ticked-off captains in downrange ships that were hit by laser beams that missed the target....
Why is that the Imperium has very few weapons laws. The planets are free govern their planets at will. This will not apply to independent startports.
Easterner9504
SOC-13
Armed
Starports are Extra-territorialty, no weapon restrictions. Ships are allowed to arm themselves anywhere any time, no nukes and per AHL no heavy guns. So no restrictions on armed ships anywhere but private ports.
Starports are Extra-territorialty, no weapon restrictions. Ships are allowed to arm themselves anywhere any time, no nukes and per AHL no heavy guns. So no restrictions on armed ships anywhere but private ports.
That's right! I forgot about the AHL entry about a privately (or at least corporate-owned) owned battlecruiser. That really struck me as odd at the time, but it made sense if you think of the ships in Traveller as you describe.
And especially since the law levels and local governments can change dramatically from world to world.
Lmao!
Seriously, got me bad with that, nice setup. *claps* Bravo!
I think the best part is the turret tracking the lion and then the head turning to look. *shrugs* Yep, Coo-Coo Nuts. *grins*
Now I got to go back and read the rest of the thread...
This was the wildest image and wow, who knew a Zebra could mount a triple turret on IT'S HEAD?
Seriously, got me bad with that, nice setup. *claps* Bravo!
I think the best part is the turret tracking the lion and then the head turning to look. *shrugs* Yep, Coo-Coo Nuts. *grins*
Now I got to go back and read the rest of the thread...
Scarecrow
SOC-14 1K
I think the Millenium Falcon has a lot to answer for. A simple merchant ship with two heavy, anti-aircraft guns capable of taking out military fighters!? I never batted an eyelid when I was a kid (and still don't really when it comes to Star Wars) but the idea of civilian merchant ships being armed is actually quite odd when you think about it.
The Serenity in Firefly is unarmed and that actually works better dramatically. The Alliance and Reavers (and any other armed ship, really) are a much more tangible threat because the crew are that much more vulnerable.
Crow
The Serenity in Firefly is unarmed and that actually works better dramatically. The Alliance and Reavers (and any other armed ship, really) are a much more tangible threat because the crew are that much more vulnerable.
Crow
