University before Career

[DElrick]

Originally posted by binky:
The fun comes when you try to port Traveller to a system that doesn't have levels and where all starting characters are roughly equal, like Chaosium's Basic Role Playing system (as used in Runequest II and Call of Cthulhu). Do you allow characters to be any age but have roughly the same experience (dependant of stat rolls) or do you craft on some form of prior history system?

I'll let you know when I've figured it out

- Neil.

Neil,

If you are doing what I think you are doing, try porting it over from GURPS Traveller. GURPS Traveller uses the basic GURPS points-based system (and ignores the age thing), as opposed to the character generation mini game of the other Traveller editions.

Give me a ring if you want me to help at all (the books are all in the bookcase the phone is sitting on).

Let me know how you get on and if you want me to brng any of the books to Dragonmeet.

Cheers

David

 

[binky]

Thanks for that Dave.

Good to have a chat and see you at Dragonmeet. You never know, I might have got somewhere by then. \


- Neil.

 

[Drakon]

Originally posted by Despasian Cruesa:
...which makes absolute logical sense!

The 40 yr. old VETERAN (with LOTS of life experience), would seem pretty ridiculous, if he DIDN'T have a hell of a lot more skills and knowledge than that snot-nosed kid.

Where I disagree with your son's arguement is: the prior history set-up doesn't MEAN anything has to happen.
The 'system' doesn't decide the age/skill levels of the various characters....the Players do!
(by deciding how many terms to serve within whatever guidelines the referee sets).

Wanna play a young hotshot with ROOM to learn? Fine.
Or...a grizzled veteran with dtons of practical knowledge, even if he can't jump walls carrying a PGMP anymore...also good.

If it looks like a problem, the referee can just set a cap on the number of prior history terms his particular campaign's CharGen will have.
As long as it's decided ahead of time, and applied uniformly, no problem.

Despasian

That was my answer as well. Maybe its the generation gap or something, but I did not see this as a problem. If you were upset that the grizzled veteran was the guy who knew everything, then why did you bust out early instead of taking more terms? Its your choice. So my character spent 20 years in the Imperal Navy, that was my choice, just as it was his to start with a fresh faced belter.

 

[Despasian]

Not to mention, that various age brackets serving on say, the same tramp trader, together can be pretty interesting.
Great opportunities for inter-player Roleplaying.

"Look here piss-ant!! I was making the Bootes Cluster run when you were just a gleam in your daddy's eye!!....Damn Kids!! No respect for their elders!"

I knew of one referee that handled it thus:
How many terms you could serve was scaled to your relative 'Traveller' experience.
In other words, those new to the game played the young bucks.
The long-in-the-tooth traveller players, that could cite Traveller Rules, Canon and Imperial History for extended periods (if allowed) would play the older guys.
It sounds somewhat unfair/restrictive, but at the time, we were on active military duty. There was a fair amount of player turnover with various experience levels. Those just learning the traveller world (and its copious amounts of material), really didn't mind the cap. It followed actual play pretty closely too; with the younger/new guys following the leads of the veterans.

Despasian

 

[FrancoisUldry]

The system works well.

It has a real Traveller feel, managing to bring the old feeling will I get lucky this time ? Will I have a big accident ?

Some things I like is that if you want to never leave the university, doing years of study you can do it. Or then if you want to live dangerously you can do it also. Etc...

In game as the game is not all about combat, it does not matter that much that the characters have so much differences in level.

I do have one major issue with the system as it is, it really lacks an attribute generation system. (License or no license, not my problem as a consumer).

I've come up with 38 points for initial purchases, no augmentation of Social through levels up, you don't know your PSI before you get tested (which won't happen to my players), which get determined as per standard rules anyway.

Francois

 

[gfrantsen]

We had this exact issue come up the other night during our very first session of T20. One of the players, a Traveller veteran of 20+ years, created a Marine Colonel that ended up 12th level by the time he was done. Most of the other players were in the 5 to 7 level range. Some of the other players were grousing about this until I pointed out that they would gain more experience per adventure than he would (per the D20 rules), earn more levels faster than he would, and they would have the advantage of knowing what to spend the skill points on based on the type of game I ran (me being the GM). The marine was "stuck in time", for a while with the choices he had made without even knowing what was going to be needed. Basically, he was willing to have a higher BAB, saves, etc., in exchange for the loss of flexibility that the lower level characters would enjoy.
Every one, eventually, conceded this point, and the game took off without further character generation discussion.

Later.
Greg.

 

[Spinward Scout]

I never quite understood the reluctance of some people playing an older character in a game where they have age-mitigating drugs (anagathics). If you don't want to grow old, but you want the skills, then there is an option for that. I have a 54 year old Detached Scout/Noble with the apparent age of 34. 20 years of experience and didn't age a bit. Now is when I start rolling for age reductions - if I can't find another source of anagathics. But then some Referees frown on anagathics for some reason, too. Wierd. But it also depends on if the Referee thinks the anagathics are rare and expensive or not...

Later,

Scout

 

[mike wightman]

How did your character get hold of anagathics during character generation? IMTU I allow a character to "buy" them during character generation at a "cost" of the forfeiture of two mustering out rolls per term of anagathic use.

 

[Spinward Scout]

I think the rule from CT was forfiture of any monitary mustering out benefits for the Term that you use anagathics. That's how we ran it. I can't find anything on it in T4 during character creation. Basically, all he got was a Scout Ship and no money, but he's 54 going on 34...

Scout

 

[Stei'awtliyrl]

It's been touched on, but a character starting at say, 8th level (due to Prior history experience) will require 8,000 experience points to reach 9th level. His 1st level partner with 0 experience points will have developed into a 4th level character by the time the vet hits 9th. By the time the vet hit's 10th, and earned another 9,000 experience points, the now 4th level partner will be 6th level. And so on and so forth. The vet will always be a couple of levels higher than the less experienced partner, but as both characters reach higher experience levels, the 28,000 experience points the vet started with translates into a smaller level margain.

HOWEVER, I do see the old "Traveller Trap" in the system regardless. Many players will opt to have their characters stay in service, earn XP and start at higher levels with more and better mustering out goodies, it's just a part of human nature to take advantage of the opportunities offered.

Myself, I try to sit with each player prior to chargen and work out what type of character they want to play. I often don't even have the book nearby during this interview. We just discuss what the player is looking for in the character. And if it comes out "raw recruit", then we generate the character appropriately. I've found that most of my players usually gravitate towards a character with a short background, maybe a term or two in the military, or a couple of Belter terms, but very seldom do the players look for a retiree to begin with.

 

[sturn386]

New to T20 please slap me if this sounds stupid. Lots of questions to follow. I've been trying to comprehend T20's chargen and combat system while swapping back and forth between it and a core book (note: which core book seems the best for this? I'm using modern)

It would make sense to require Academic, Professional, and maybe Noble as a class when picking Bachelors (including OTC), Masters, or Doctorate programs as they are listed in the book. I'm personally thinking of expanding the lists of schools to include Technical College, Merchant Academy, and Military Academy. Technical College might be limited to Professional as a class, Merchant Academy to Merchant, and Military Academy to Navy, Army, or Marine. I recall Military and Merchant academies in CT, but was there any sort of Scout academy?

Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
you can actually be in a term in the Scouts, but you can actually take classes in Rogue, Academic, Merchant, and Traveller and nothing at all in Scout

Is this actually how T20 works? It wouldn't make sense to me to be in the Navy but rolling for duty assignments as a Merchant. I would think your current class dictates your current profession during prior history. The rules say differently? I wouldn't want to allow this except for education > A character serving in the Army could take a term in university hoping to get into OTC. During this term he would be considered an Academic since his life-style just changed considerably. Afterwards he would return to an Army term since he never actually left service. In the "real world" this would be similar to the Green to Gold program of the US Army (can leave normal active duty for 4 years at a college with ROTC then return to normal service).

 

[far-trader]

Slap you, why never...

...instead a (belated) welcome to the community

Which core book is best? Whichever one you have at hand imo. At least till the T20 one comes out, and then only if you still have to buy one.

If it makes sense to you then it is right for YTU, go for it. I like your idea of adding schools and have been toying with the idea some myself. The Scouts never had one though (99% sure) but it doesn't mean they couldn't if you wanted one. Now you mention it a Contact School sounds interesting for a campaign where such is possible.

As for OTC until I define it further I've been assuming it is in fact the appropriate Academy and allow one level of the associated class while attending (i.e. some of the xps earned in the Academy/University prior history are applied to the class the character will be entering as Prior History). Clear as dark matter?

The example is basically correct but I think some of the specifics might be off. You can take the xps earned in Prior History in any Class you meet the multi-class qualifications of. In the case of the Evil Dr's example I don't think the Scout (Prior History) could take levels of Merchant (Class) since they're not an "active crewmember of a working starship" (I take "working" in this case to mean one pursuing business and profit, not simply functioning). Academic, Rogue and Traveller would all be allowable if the Scout has the right requirements.

Similarily your Navy character could not take Merchant levels, though other classes might be available. Rogue might be possible, if they are perhaps dealing in the black market using their posting as quartermaster to skim supplies, as an example.

So your actual experience (Class) may be outside the normal bounds of your job description (Prior History). The rules were made thus to encourage diversity and allow imagintive sparks (Why is your Merchant(PH)/Ex-Army(PH) dabbling as a Mercenary(Class) this term? To pay the bills? For the rush? To return a favor to an Army buddy now in private mercenary employ?)

Hope that helps a bit.

 

[sturn386]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Which core book is best? Whichever one you have at hand imo.

I have Star Wars, Modern, D&D, and Wheel of Time corebooks. I bought Modern thinking I should have it to go with T20 but now am thinking it may have been a waste of money (although it seems like a nice book).

Thanks for the replies and I think a light bulb finally went off and I understand the idea of the prior history after reading through old posts here. Prior history is just past employment, nothing to do with class, think of it that way and its much less confusing. Seems they should have had much different titles for prior careers and classes to make things less confusing.

This may be a radical departure, but it would have been nice if the careers were the same but the classes were more generic. Just a brief example, but consider the popular CT Careers of Navy, Marine, Merchant, and Mercenary. Make these available as careers for prior history as is. Classes would include such generic classes as Soldier, Space Crew, Explorer, Rogue, etc. A typical person in a Marine career would take levels in Soldier and Space Crew with more on the Soldier side; typical Navy would take levels in Space Crew and Soldier, with much more emphasis on Space Crew; typical Merc's primarily Soldier with some Rogue and Traveller perhaps; Merchants a mix of Space Crew, Professional, Traveller, and so on.

Point is if the classes were renamed and/or made more generic T20 character creation would be less confusing and make more sense.

Hopefully the new player's guide coming out will polish some things up and make it easier to learn. I've been playing D&D since it came in a small white box with pamphlets, Traveller when there were only about 5 black books, and it still took me a while reading T20 and this board to get the hang of things.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by K. Webb:

Thanks for the replies and I think a light bulb finally went off and I understand the idea of the prior history after reading through old posts here. Prior history is just past employment, nothing to do with class, think of it that way and its much less confusing. Seems they should have had much different titles for prior careers and classes to make things less confusing.

You're quite welcome. Don't worry about being confused over this, it's common and I think for the very reason you point out.

 

[sturn386]

Character Generation FAQ: This is getting slightly off-topic from the original heading, but has some relevance. I've been searching the boards for a character generation FAQ but haven't found one yet. Please point me in the right direction if there is A FAQ somewhere.

Below is a brief attempt at character generation notes that may help some. I'm old to Traveller but new (week one) to T20. Someone please point out any flaws so I can update it and tell me to delete this if I'm violating any OGL rules.

STEPS TO CHARACTER GENERATION

1.Roll/Pick Abilities by whatever method you choose. These are not listed in THB and must be found in a core d20 book.
2.Pick Race and record bonuses as listed in THB.
3.Choose a known world in the referee's campaign or create a random homeworld. The character's homeworld gives bonuses as described in THB. Record these.
4.Choose first class for level 1 noting requirements and choose/record bonuses. Any class that you qualify for may be chosen.
5.Choose a prior history term. This must be an education term, term of employment in a non-service career in which you have at least one level of class, or enlistment in a service career (by meeting its requirements). Apply experience, roll for promotions/survival/duties/benefits, and advance levels noting requirements and restrictions if multi-classing.
6.Repeat 5 above mustering out if the character changes careers (not classes). Repeat step 5 as often as the player wishes while being aware of aging penalties. To continue for an additional term in a career often requires a DC roll.

CLASS REQUIREMENT NOTES

Basic feat, ability, and skill requirements are not listed below. See THB.

Army, Marines, Navy: Only available if serving appropriate term in prior history or during active military style campaign (optional)
Barbarian: Can't multi-class into, only from. Thus must be first class level to start. If another class is 2 levels+ above or technosavvy 10+, can no longer advance levels.
Belter: Can't multi-class into, only from. Character's first term must be as a Belter.
Mercenary: Can only multi-class into if previously served a term in Army, Marines, or Navy. If Mercenary is first class, this is not required.
Merchant: If start as Merchant class, must serve at least one Merchant term (can defer term later in order to go to university see THB). During play, must be part of a starship crew to level.
Scout: Must be serving a Scout term to multi-class into Scouts. During play, may always level a Scout if previously a Scout during prior history.

PRIOR HISTORY NOTES

The career a character serves a term in does not necessarily dictate the class he must level in.

Non-service careers require a level in their named class to enter, while service careers (Army, Marines, Navy, Scout) only require the character to meet the required abilities of the class to enlist.

Muster out of each career before proceeding to a new one. When mustering out, education terms are normally not counted towards a career's number of terms. Exceptions are entering education while a Merchant (see THB) or attending OTC or an Academy (optional see below). These terms of education would count towards mustering out benefits for the merchant or service career.

CLASSES AVAILABLE BY PRIOR HISTORY TERM

Per THB any class a character qualifies for is available during prior history except those excluded by the rules above. Referees may have a player develop a conceivable reason for choosing a class for some careers (such as a Mercenary level while attending a University).

Below in italics is an optional list of classes available to education and career terms created by this writer. It restricts which classes may be chosen to level by what term is being served. The character must still observe any requirements of the class and rules stated above. Two new education entries listed are also writer-created and optional (ask for details if interested). Input is greatly desired in this list.

Bachelors Program: Academic, Noble, Professional, OTC allows one level of Army, Navy, or Marine. OTC counts towards a service term for Mustering Out. OTC requires term of service.
Masters Program: Academic, Noble, Professional.
Doctorate Program: Academic, Noble, Professional.
Military Academy: Academic, Noble, Professional and Army, Marine, or Navy (one of these three). Academy requires term of service.
Merchant Academy: Merchant, Academic, Noble, Professional. Academy requires term of service.
Academic: Academic, Noble, Professional, Scouts?, Traveller.
Army: Army, Noble, Professional, Rogue?
Barbarian: Barbarian, Mercenary, Rogue, Traveller.
Belter: Belter, Mercenary?, Professional, Rogue, Traveller.
Marines: Marines, Noble, Professional, Rogue?
Mercenary: Mercenary, Professional?, Rogue, Traveller.
Merchants: Merchants, Academic, Professional, Noble, Rogue.
Navy: Navy, Academic, Noble, Professional, Rogue?
Noble: Noble, Academic, Merchants, Professional, Rogue, Scouts?, Traveller.
Professional: Professional, Academic, Noble, Scouts?, Traveller, Rogue?
Rogue: Rogue, Barbarian, Belter, Mercenary, Merchants, Professional, Traveller.
Scouts: Scouts, Academic, Noble?, Professional, Traveller.
Traveller: Traveller, Academic, Barbarian, Belter, Mercenary, Merchants, Noble, Professional, Rogue, Scouts, Traveller.

That's it. New to T20 so please point out any errors, contradictions, etc which I'm sure there may be many. This is considered a rough draft. I would like to add anyone's information to help develop this into a character generation helper. I would also like any suggestions on the optional italicized list above before I include this in my campaign. If you are interested in adding Academies as optional education please say so I have rough working models that shouldn't upset a campaign.

 

[MichaelL65]

Originally posted by K. Webb:
Bachelors Program: Academic, Noble, Professional, OTC allows one level of Army, Navy, or Marine. OTC counts towards a service term for Mustering Out. OTC requires term of service.

I would submit that Mercenary or Rogue are also quite valid. If the student is engaged heavily in war games and/or paintball durring their time spent as a student, then Merc wouldn't be that far off. Also if they cheated their way through, a Rogue would be in order (their diploma may not be worth as much as it seems, and the honours certainly would be in question).

Anyone who is on detached duty from the Scouts should also be able to take a level as a Scout while getting their degrees (This is assuming the character attends college after serving as a Scout).

The Merc and Rogue examples also could be applied to any other prior history. Merchent could be without much of a stretch too, as they could be engaged in some commerce "on the side" while performing their duties for whatever prior history they are in.

Basicly, if there is a plausable explanation why a character can take levels in a class, then they should (although the player probably should be required to come up with that explanation).

 

[Guido]

Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Garf:
I have no problem wrapping my mind around the difference between CLASS, and CAREER.

Like I said, I think it would have been a lot less confusing if they'd used different names for the 'classes' and the 'careers'. Or even if they'd used the D20 Modern class system (Strong hero, Smart hero, etc) and overlaid the T20 career system (Scout, Academic, Rogue etc) on top of that (has anyone tried doing that?). I think basing a sci-fi T20 on a fantasy D&D rather than on D20 Modern cripples the game. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree,
I have just purchased T20 on the basis that it was an old favourite but with new familliar and effective rules that I use for other games. BUT, chargen is a minefield. The rules appear to be in conflict - it states in various places that you can only work in a role if you have a level in the corresponding class, and you can only multiclass to a class if you are actively working in the role. Aaargh!!!

The only way out is to sign up as a service class or stick to one role - which crashes against all the 'multiclassing is good' messages.

I think I'll do things in some kind of roughly logical but flexible way. This seems to be the old real-life chicken and egg 'how do I get a job without experience, how do I get experience without a job' dilemma. Frankly in real-life it's down to someone giving you the break and for me that's gotta be based on a roll of some kind, enhacned by previous experience or transferrable skills. I think I'll go for a 'sign-up' check. Each term the character will be allowed to try their hand at getting a range of jobs, automatically getting any work for whcih they have a level already, or having to succeed at a 'selection' for anything else. Might modify that in some way.

This implies generating levels in things as you go.

Alternatively, have free-form choice of multiclass - i.e. you can use your experience points from your first term to move into and gain levels in another class, and then go for work in it (that makes more sense actually. Either way, one of the limits described above has to be dropped.

I think I now have myself more confused!

What do you you all do?

 

[FrancoisUldry]

My group is now created.

We started playing a month ago.

I did proceed like this :

You start with a concept (I want to play a smuggler, a doc, a pilot a whatever), check the skills you will need to do that properly and then you start generating attributes by whatever you choose.

The player can then choose the class which fits his concept and his attributes (go back to attributes step if it does not work).

You then start the PH process, university can be done anytime, remembering the following : OTC is before 32 years, exp gained during those terms is either applied to class toward which the OTC is used or academics. Then you move on following the PH process term per term.

For example, I got a rogue character who went through university at 28, OTC'd to merchant and served as a smuggler, hide specialist aboard starships since then. He also picked up some Computer skills along the way learning to steal starships and cargo.

I also have s surgeon specialized in Trauma. He started Aca, M.D. then joined the Merchants, served some time as a Doctor in a real hospital (thus learning some exp as a professional for the take 10 advantage of the professional class), etc...

I got a madman who went through the marines, then the army and finished up as a merc, at 35 or so having served always as a security specialist or in police assignment. He was also the eternal captain switching job each times he achieved the captain rank. (Actually failing the reenlist roll each time but you can explain it the way you want).

All in all a lengthy process, in which the players had a lot of fun.

It was done one on one and took about 3 to 4 hours per player.

As long as I have fun doing it I am always willing to create a T20 character.

The only problem I have is the random homeworld selection, it's kind of hard to find homeworlds which fit the die rolls.

Francois

 

[ravells]

On Sunday I tried to roll up a Traveller T20 character (an academic) and found the rules almost impenetrable. On top of which was the hassle of cross referencing THB with the D&D Corebook (which I only bought so I could use THB).

I'm glad to see I'm not alone in this. Is K Webb's excellent list of steps (see his earlier post which should be set in crystal to be forever preserved) the last word on how the process should be followed or is there something more recent?

cheers

Ravs