"Unskilled laborer joins the nobility!"

[rancke]

-- Plans a career in the Ministry of State

If my character has a Soc of 10 or more, it can automatically join the nobility career. But if not, I can still roll for qualification? So if my character has a Soc of 2 (giving him a -2 to the qualification throw) and I'm lucky enough to throw 12, he gets to join the nobility career? And if the dice favor him, he can end up as a Rank 6 Minister with hundreds of thousands of credits and TAS membership and ship shares towards a luxury yacht... and Soc 2?


Hans

 

[CosmicGamer]

I can still roll for qualification?

Yes

So if my character has a Soc of 2 (giving him a -2 to the qualification throw) and I'm lucky enough to throw 12, he gets to join the nobility career?

Yes

And if the dice favor him, he can end up as a Rank 6 Minister with hundreds of thousands of credits and TAS membership and ship shares towards a luxury yacht... and Soc 2?

Perhaps if all things line up just right.

I think you have some deeper thoughts waiting to come out but I don't want to guess what you think so please post for discussion.

Keep in mind this is a chargen system that can give a one term Marine a 33% chance of leaving with hundreds of thousands of credits in combat armor, a one term scout a 33% chance of getting a scout ship, and a one term Navy character a 33% chance of getting a Cr. 16,000,000 Ships Boat, a one term lowly rogue henchman who gets gambling has 2 chances at 33% each for 100,000 Cr and.....

 

[rancke]

I think there are some deeper thoughts waiting to come out but I don't want to guess what you think so please post for discussion.

No deep thoughts. I just stumbled across this while doing pregens for an introductory adventure/convention scenario and wondered if I'd misunderstood something.

I also wonder if this is what the writer intended or whether it's a mistake. The CT nobles career had automatical no enlistment for Soc 9-. Is the change intentional? Because it seems pretty incongruous to me.

It's not a problem for me, since I don't intend to include any nobles in a band of introductory characters, but if I ever join a game with a By The Book referee, I'm going to give it a try.

Keep in mind this is a chargen system that gives a one term Marine a 33% chance of leaving with hundreds of thousands of credits in combat armor, a one term scout a 33% chance of getting a scout ship, and a one term Navy character a 33% chance of getting a Cr. 16,000,000 Ships Boat and.....

Yeah, but an ex-marine with a combat armor is not as incongruous as a Soc 2 Minister of State.


Hans

 

[CosmicGamer]

I'm sure you've met a DMV or Unemployment office clerk who was SOC 2.

Probably quite a few statesmen that started from humble beginnings.

A point I've discussed before is that the Imperium nobility is based more on military than government service.

 

[rancke]

I'm sure you've met a DMV or Unemployment office clerk who was SOC 2.

I'm pretty sure I haven't, and not just because I've never had a driver's license or drawn unemployment benefits. Government clerks are lower middle or middle class. Soc 2 would be unskilled manual laborers.

I'm also completely nonplussed as to what that has to do with Soc 2 government ministers.

Probably quite a few statesmen that started from humble beginnings.

Ah, I see. I don't think statesmen that started as the sons of unskilled laborers are all that plentiful, and I'm convinced that none of them remained Soc 2 after they became statesmen¹.

¹At the risk of being humbled by wiki references to vagabond statesmen, I will say: none whatsoever. And, no, Emperor Norton doesn't count.​

Hans

 

[pendragonman]

I'm pretty sure I haven't, and not just because I've never had a driver's license or drawn unemployment benefits. Government clerks are lower middle or middle class. Soc 2 would be unskilled manual laborers.

I'm also completely nonplussed as to what that has to do with Soc 2 government ministers.


Hans

Actually, Hans, SS is really somewhat independent, at least at the beginning of chargen, of employment.

Surely you met some folks from "the wrong side of the tracks" in secondary school that at 18 only had the opportunities to be world class ditch diggers that went on to excellent military careers or became wealthy entrepreneurs? I know I have since I am one of them.

Would you consider a Doctor of Mathematics SS 2? I surely didn't start out middle class, growing up on the dole as I did. It is not where you started chargen at, but where you end up that matters.

If some pregen starts age 18 at SS 2, and rolls the boxcars, maybe he/she/it is a byblow of some otherwise childless noble or the only surviving final member of an otherwise dead family tree (see the movie "King Ralph" and others).

I mean, just calculate the odds of rolling snake eyes for SS and then boxcars to enlist in the noble career. Wafer thin odds.

 

[Garyius2003]

-- Plans a career in the Ministry of State

If my character has a Soc of 10 or more, it can automatically join the nobility career. But if not, I can still roll for qualification? So if my character has a Soc of 2 (giving him a -2 to the qualification throw) and I'm lucky enough to throw 12, he gets to join the nobility career? And if the dice favor him, he can end up as a Rank 6 Minister with hundreds of thousands of credits and TAS membership and ship shares towards a luxury yacht... and Soc 2?


Hans

There are current US congresspersons who started on the lowest level of society, and continue to act in public like they still are in terms of social class and education, while serving on fairly powerful committees (staying away from names and parties to avoid current politics).

I assume government of whatever type has always had such exceptions to the general rule. It may be easier in elective government, but even in a pure case of civil service employees supervised by appointed members of the noble class there has to be some sort of affirmative action program, or even honest cases of talented lower classes being selected for promotion programs.

 

[rancke]

There are current US congresspersons who started on the lowest level of society, and continue to act in public like they still are in terms of social class and education, while serving on fairly powerful committees (staying away from names and parties to avoid current politics).

It's not how people act, it's how they are treated. The next time you hear about a US congressperson being told to go round to the tradesmen's entrance, let me know.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Actually, Hans, SS is really somewhat independent, at least at the beginning of chargen, of employment.

But I was talking about SS at the end of chargen.

Surely you met some folks from "the wrong side of the tracks" in secondary school that at 18 only had the opportunities to be world class ditch diggers that went on to excellent military careers or became wealthy entrepreneurs? I know I have since I am one of them.

In Denmark everybody is entitled to 12 years of schooling, so my experience is probably not all that relevant.

Would you consider a Doctor of Mathematics SS 2? I surely didn't start out middle class, growing up on the dole as I did. It is not where you started chargen at, but where you end up that matters.

Exactly my point. So a CGS that allows someone to become a minister while still staying Soc 2 is, IMO, not doing a good job.

If some pregen starts age 18 at SS 2, and rolls the boxcars, maybe he/she/it is a byblow of some otherwise childless noble or the only surviving final member of an otherwise dead family tree (see the movie "King Ralph" and others).

I mean, just calculate the odds of rolling snake eyes for SS and then boxcars to enlist in the noble career. Wafer thin odds.

Note that my example was just the extreme of the potential. You can also get someone with an Soc of 6 (lower middle class) who would be able to join the nobility career on a roll of 10-12 -- 17% chance.


Hans

 

[pendragonman]

It's not how people act, it's how they are treated. The next time you hear about a US congressperson being told to go round to the tradesmen's entrance, let me know.


Hans

It has likely happened, but unless there is a way to make political hay out of it, the normal folks will never hear about it. Especially some of those hacks who have a way of pushing "do as I say but not as I do" mentality. Like those that push their morality onto the rest, then get caught doing what they are proscribing to the rest.

While staying out of the political cesspit, we can just take a look at Jim Bakker and the PTL leadership from the 80's. Most of them started out on the low end, and ended up on the low end again after getting caught in their frauds.

Not sure I would have classed their career as a noble though, more likely scoundrels.

 

[pendragonman]

But I was talking about SS at the end of chargen.

No, you weren't. I refer you to your original post:

- Plans a career in the Ministry of State

If my character has a Soc of 10 or more, it can automatically join the nobility career. But if not, I can still roll for qualification? So if my character has a Soc of 2 (giving him a -2 to the qualification throw) and I'm lucky enough to throw 12, he gets to join the nobility career? And if the dice favor him, he can end up as a Rank 6 Minister with hundreds of thousands of credits and TAS membership and ship shares towards a luxury yacht... and Soc 2?


Hans
__________________

Very clearly you are talking about the beginning.

 

[rancke]

No, you weren't. I refer you to your original post:



Very clearly you are talking about the beginning.

Try reading it again.


Hans

 

[Spinward Scout]

But if not, I can still roll for qualification?

No.

You don't qualify if your Soc isn't 10 or higher. I'm sure the line about -1 DM for previous careers is a misprint.

At least that's how it is in every previous version of Traveller.

 

[rancke]

No.

You don't qualify if your Soc isn't 10 or higher. I'm sure the line about -1 DM for previous careers is a misprint.

At least that's how it is in every previous version of Traveller.

I know that. But that's not what it say in these rules.


Hans

 

[aramis]

-- Plans a career in the Ministry of State

If my character has a Soc of 10 or more, it can automatically join the nobility career. But if not, I can still roll for qualification? So if my character has a Soc of 2 (giving him a -2 to the qualification throw) and I'm lucky enough to throw 12, he gets to join the nobility career? And if the dice favor him, he can end up as a Rank 6 Minister with hundreds of thousands of credits and TAS membership and ship shares towards a luxury yacht... and Soc 2?


Hans

Sounds like someone's unacknowledged bastard suddenly showing up with a DNA profile match....

 

[rancke]

Sounds like someone's unacknowledged bastard suddenly showing up with a DNA profile match....

Sounds like an extremely extraordinary social system. I know of no society in history (or fiction for that matter, though I admit some fantastic conceit might conceivably be possible) where someone could work their way up from the lower lower class to working as a minister of state without improving his social standing along the way.


Hans

 

[Spinward Scout]

Maybe something was left out of the Mongoose rules about the Soc being raised when you become Nobility. That would make more sense.

 

[McPerth]

Ah, I see. I don't think statesmen that started as the sons of unskilled laborers are all that plentiful, and I'm convinced that none of them remained Soc 2 after they became statesmen¹.

IIRC one of most close Emperor Claudius (Roman Emperor from 41 to 54 AD) advisors was a former slave, and even while he was quite influential in the Roman Imperium (enough to be seen as a minister) he remained a freed slave, not a patrician, nor a Roman citizen (and I guess that qualifies for very low SS).

No.

You don't qualify if your Soc isn't 10 or higher. I'm sure the line about -1 DM for previous careers is a misprint.

At least that's how it is in every previous version of Traveller.

In former versions, Nobles were true nobility (titled), while in MgT Noble career includes politicians, corporation managers, etc (see that CB specialties are Administrator, Diplomat and Diletante).

So, in previous versions, even if a SS2 could enter in the career, just by positioning he would achieve SS11 (knight), and each promotion would raise it by 1 (as it means a higher title).

In this way, there have been people in various places and times that.even after they achieved high fortunes and influence, were treated as pariahs due to their upbringing or the way they achieved their position (former criminals, slave traders, dubious fortunes, etc...). Perhaps those would not be seen as SS2, but sure quite low one.

And this was more true in a feudal society, where your blood (noble or peasant) counted more tan your wealth (think on Jews in medieval Europe, seen as pariahs regardless their wealth or influence).

 

[rancke]

IIRC one of most close Emperor Claudius (Roman Emperor from 41 to 54 AD) advisors was a former slave, and even while he was quite influential in the Roman Imperium (enough to be seen as a minister) he remained a freed slave, not a patrician, nor a Roman citizen (and I guess that qualifies for very low SS).

Quite right, and I suppose that means that I must eat my words.

At the same time, I still don't think that the generic insterstellar government of the CGS is organized like the Roman Empire, and I'm positive that the 3rd Imperium has never been described like that. The vibe I get is closer to 19th Century British nobility.

EDIT: I can't help feeling that some sort of 'True Scotsman' argument would actually be appropriate here. But since I would be turning from logic to sentiment, I won't press the point.


Hans

 

[Shonner]

So if my character has a Soc of 2 (giving him a -2 to the qualification throw) and I'm lucky enough to throw 12, he gets to join the nobility career? And if the dice favor him, he can end up as a Rank 6 Minister with hundreds of thousands of credits and TAS membership and ship shares towards a luxury yacht... and Soc 2?

I've been seeing 7-Term Administrator Ministers entering with SOC 2 and leaving with SOC 6. Most of the time, they just leave with SOC 2. And most of the time, a character doesn't have a SOC 2 *and* rolls a 12 for Nobility career. So I wouldn't worry about ending up with such a character if it bothers you.

Maybe something was left out of the Mongoose rules about the Soc being raised when you become Nobility. That would make more sense.

I doubt it. Mongoose Traveller is a re-boot. It doesn't need to follow what Classic did before. Mongoose doesn't say to use Classic rules for a second opinion.