"Unskilled laborer joins the nobility!"

[rancke]

The planetary elite are, apparently, mostly soc 9 and 10, with a few who are also imperial nobles. There is reference somewhere in a CT product (3rd party maybe) that local world nobles are all also routinely granted imperial knighthoods.

Yes, that's the take my own solution takes. Overlapping planetary status with Imperial knighthoods is reasonable enough, but IMO a social ladder that squeezes everyone from a planetary baronet to a planetary emperor into one social level ought to look like this:

Soc 1 Lower Class
Soc 2 Middle Class
Soc 3 Upper Class
Soc 4 Ultra Class​

So, as I said, I have a problem -- a big problem -- with something like this:

Soc 1 Beneath lower lower class
Soc 2 Lower lower class
Soc 3 Middle lower class
Soc 4 Upper lower class
Soc 5 Lower middle class
Soc 6 lower middle middle class
Soc 7 upper middle middle class
Soc 8 Upper middle class
Soc 9 Gentry
Soc 10 planetary nobility
Soc 11 Planetary royalty & Imperial knight
Soc 12-17 Imperial nobility​

(Exact splitup of Soc 1-8 debatable).

Note, incidentally, that you need a HUGE number of Imperial knighthoods to cover the upper classes of all Imperial member worlds. Something like three quarters of a trillion (depending on your definition of 'upper class', of course. I used 5% of the population for this calculation. If you go for half a percent, you can get it down to a mere 75 billion. )


Hans

 

[aramis]

I disagree with your breakdown of Soc 1-9.

I'd put it as
Soc 1 LLC
Soc 2 MLC
Soc 3 ULC
Soc 4 LMC
Soc 5 MMC
Soc 6 UMC
Soc 7 LUC
Soc 8 MUC
Soc 9 UUC, Local Gentry
Soc 10 Economic Elites and/or Imp Gentry, Lower Local nobles
Soc 11 Local major barons (Baron-Duke), Imp Knights
Soc 12 Local Royals, Imp Barons
Soc 13 Local Over-Royals (Major Emperors Pop 7+ - 1800AD England & China; 100AD Rome, China), Imperial Marquis.

See, it dawned on me in the 90's that Soc 7 isnt' the imperial average imperial social standing. It's the average Space Traveller within the Imperium. (It certainly makes the upkeep in CT match the MT rules better...)

Especially since most of the middle class won't be leaving world more than once or twice in a lifetime except for Imperial Service.

 

[Condottiere]

Soc-0 being Untouchables?

 

[Marchand]

...That sort of makes sense.

A nobleman with a Soc 2 at the end of their career does not.

Altough I did cite an actual example from real life, upthread (post 25). I'm still away from home so I still can't give you the chap's name.

It doesn't make much sense to me to complain if the rules don't fit some preconceived notion that being a Traveller Noble means you are like a British nobleman of the nineteenth century, or something out of the Spanish or Roman empires. The rules don't say that's what a noble career necessarily means.

 

[aramis]

Soc-0 being Untouchables?

Hardened outcasts - untouchables, prisoners, slaves.

 

[rancke]

It doesn't make much sense to me to complain if the rules don't fit some preconceived notion that being a Traveller Noble means you are like a British nobleman of the nineteenth century, or something out of the Spanish or Roman empires. The rules don't say that's what a noble career necessarily means.

No, but the adventures and setting details all assume that interstellar society is pretty much like Western society unless specifically stated otherwise.

Well... except for Imperial nobles being pretty much the Far Future equivalent of petty European nobles and not the immensely rare individuals they ought to be.


Hans

 

[rancke]

I disagree with your breakdown of Soc 1-9.

I'd put it as
Soc 1 LLC
Soc 2 MLC
Soc 3 ULC
Soc 4 LMC
Soc 5 MMC
Soc 6 UMC

So far, so good.

Soc 7 LUC
Soc 8 MUC
Soc 9 UUC, Local Gentry
Soc 10 Economic Elites and/or Imp Gentry, Lower Local nobles
Soc 11 Local major barons (Baron-Duke), Imp Knights
Soc 12 Local Royals, Imp Barons
Soc 13 Local Over-Royals (Major Emperors Pop 7+ - 1800AD England & China; 100AD Rome, China), Imperial Marquis.

The local gentry would be the lower upper class, local nobility would be the middle upper class, and royalty would be the upper upper class.

See, it dawned on me in the 90's that Soc 7 isnt' the imperial average imperial social standing. It's the average Space Traveller within the Imperium.

Intersting theory, but is there any actual evidence to support it? Any Soc 9 characters in official products that were members of a planetary upper upper class?

(It certainly makes the upkeep in CT match the MT rules better...)

How so?


Hans

 

[atpollard]

So if my character has a Soc of 2 (giving him a -2 to the qualification throw) and I'm lucky enough to throw 12, he gets to join the nobility career? And if the dice favor him, he can end up as a Rank 6 Minister with hundreds of thousands of credits and TAS membership and ship shares towards a luxury yacht... and Soc 2?
Hans

There was a minister of the Spanish Republic who ended his days working as a cleaner in a hotel in Venezuela after Franco won.

So, your SOC-2 "nobleman" might have been a worker who rose to become a senior official of a revolutionary state, but then fled into impecunious exile when the reactionaries came back into power.

All of this is an example of why I prefer rationalizing throws for myself (as in Classic) rather than relying on prepackaged "events tables" a la Mongoose. But that's another point.

It doesn't make much sense to me to complain if the rules don't fit some preconceived notion that being a Traveller Noble means you are like a British nobleman of the nineteenth century, or something out of the Spanish or Roman empires. The rules don't say that's what a noble career necessarily means.

The above offered for quick reference.

Although I did cite an actual example from real life, upthread (post 25). I'm still away from home so I still can't give you the chap's name.

Don't sweat the name. I get the idea, and agree that it could happen ... In fact, I think that would be a great REF fiat alternative for a nobleman failing a survival roll and being forced out without his mustering out cash.

The problem that rancke is pointing out is that anyone, of any social status, can join the 'noble' career, and rise in power to retire as a head of state ... and his social status is completely unchanged by the experience. The complaint is not that it is a rare possibility (like the Spanish Minister you mention). The complaint is that under the rules as written, it is the normal result. Rank in the 'noble' career carries no social weight.

So how many statesmen do you know who rise from humble origins, get treated exactly the same as a minister as they were when they were a common laborer or petty clerk or a mid-level manager.

Remember, one important use for Social was (and I assume still is) to check for police harassment ... "Alright now, I don't care if you are Secretary of the Treasury. No loitering, means no loitering. So take your government limousine and your driver and your security detail and move along. If I find you in this park when I come around again, you will all be spending the night in jail."

 

[atpollard]

Hardened outcasts - untouchables, prisoners, slaves.

... psions.

 

[rancke]

The problem that rancke is pointing out is that anyone, of any social status, can join the 'noble' career, and rise in power to retire as a head of state ... and his social status is completely unchanged by the experience. The complaint is not that it is a rare possibility (like the Spanish Minister you mention). The complaint is that under the rules as written, it is the normal result. Rank in the 'noble' career carries no social weight.

I should add that this is potentially completely unchanged. The mustering out benefits do give our Soc-2-when-he-started minister a one third chance of getting a +1 to Soc per roll. So if he uses, say, nine benefit rolls, he could wind up with a Soc of 5 (He even has a chance of reaching Soc 11 if he gets that one third on all his rolls -- hey, there's a 0.005% chance of that happening).


Hans

 

[rancke]

Remember, one important use for Social was (and I assume still is) to check for police harassment ... "Alright now, I don't care if you are Secretary of the Treasury. No loitering, means no loitering. So take your government limousine and your driver and your security detail and move along. If I find you in this park when I come around again, you will all be spending the night in jail."

Good point, and an indication that Soc 9 is perhaps not the very top of the planetary social pyramid. "Alright now, I don't care if you're the ruler of the continent..."


Hans

 

[lego zhodani]

Ex PrimeMinister John Major was from soc 2-3 and ended up as Primeminister of the UK. Politics aside, not a bad bout of climbing the ladder!

 

[whulorigan]

See, it dawned on me in the 90's that Soc 7 isnt' the imperial average imperial social standing. It's the average Space Traveller within the Imperium.

This is the only interpretation that makes sense of SOC in CharGen being distributed as a "bell-curve" (i.e. a "Social Diamond", as Hans once put it) rather than a Social Pyramid with the majority of individuals occupying the lower rungs.

The local gentry would be the lower upper class, local nobility would be the middle upper class, and royalty would be the upper upper class.

Yes. "Gentry" was always defined as the LUC (Lower Upper Class). But (at least in British usage), the gentry included four levels (in ascending order):

1) Untitled Gentry ("Gentleman") - Independently wealthy with no titled family pedigree;
2) Esquire - An "untitled" gentleman descended from a Knightly ancestry
3) Knight - A non-heritable honorific bestowed by the Crown
4) Baronet - An hereditary Knighthood that stood above all other knightly orders.

So "gentry" (Lower Upper Class) would be defined within any given rank-structure as all titles between Gentleman and Baronet within that given system of nobilary ranks. Middle Upper Class begins at the Baronial Rank.

. . . an indication that Soc 9 is perhaps not the very top of the planetary social pyramid . . .

I think the above is born-out by the historical usage of SOC in the game. Soc=9 may be LUC, but it is certainly not MUC or UUC.

Based on Aramis's & Hans's prior posts, what are thoughts on the following proposed structure:

DEFINITIONS:
(MINOR WORLD: Pop < 7)
(MAJOR WORLD: Pop > 7)
(Pop = 7 will determine Major/Minor status by secondary economic criteria)

_____________________________________________

"CLASSLESS"---
Soc 0 No Social Class (e.g. Robots)
Soc 1 Beneath Lower lower class ("Untouchables"/"Slaves")

LOWER CLASS ---
Soc 2 (LLC) Lower lower class (Welfare-recipiants / "Lumpenproletariat")
Soc 3 (MLC) Middle lower class (Peasants / Unskilled labor)
Soc 4 (ULC) Upper lower class (Proletariat / "Working Class" / Skilled Workers)

MIDDLE CLASS---
Soc 5 (LMC) Lower middle class ("Working Middle Class" (Petit-Bourgeoisie)/ "Associate's-Degree" Workers /Local Managers)
Soc 6 (MMC) Middle middle class (Bourgeoisie / White-Collar/"Bachelor's-Degree" Workers /Middle-Managers)
Soc 7 (UMC-1) Upper middle class (Bourgeoisie / White-Collar/"Professional Degree" Workers)
Soc 8 (UMC-2) Upper middle class (Bourgeoisie / White-Collar/"Professional Degree" Workers /Upper Management)

_______________

"LOCAL" UPPER CLASSES---
Soc 9 (LUC-1) Lower upper class - Lesser Local Gentry ("Well-Born") / Untitled Gentry
Soc 10 (LUC-2) Lower upper class - Greater Local Gentry ("Local" Knight/Baronet), Local Nobles (Minor Worlds)

Soc 11 (MUC-1) Middle upper class - Local Nobles (Major Worlds)
Soc 12a (MUC-2) Middle upper class - Local Royals (Minor World)

Soc 12b (UUC-1) Upper upper class - Local Royals (Major World)
Soc 13 (UUC-2) Upper upper class - Local Over-Royals (Major-World Emperors)

============================================

"IMPERIAL" UPPER CLASSES---
Soc 10 (Imp LIC-1) Lower Imperial Class - "Imperial" Gentry
Soc 11 (Imp LIC-2) Lower Imperial Class - Imperial Knights
Soc 12a (Imp LIC-3) Lower Imperial Class - Imperial Baronet

Soc 12b (Imp MIC-1) Middle Imperial Class - Imperial Barons
Soc 13 (Imp MIC-2) Middle Imperial Class - Imperial Marquis
Soc 14a (Imp MIC-3) Middle Imperial Class - Imperial Viscount
Soc 14b (Imp MIC-4) Middle Imperial Class - Imperial Count
Soc 15 (Imp MIC-5) Middle Imperial Class - Imperial Duke

Soc 16 (Imp UIC-1) Upper Imperial Class - Imperial Archduke
Soc 17 (Imp UIC-2) Upper Imperial Class - Imperial Household

In the above structure, the overlap between Local and Imperial Upper Classes occurs primarily in the Soc=10 to Soc=12 range (Soc=13 in a few extreme cases). By comparing the Soc-value between the Local & Imperial levels, one can gauge the likely Imperial-title that might be granted to a local leader that the Emperor chooses to favor.

 

[rancke]

Yes. "Gentry" was always defined as the LUC (Lower Upper Class). But (at least in British usage), the gentry included four levels (in ascending order):

1) Untitled Gentry ("Gentleman") - Independently wealthy with no titled family pedigree;
2) Esquire - An "untitled" gentleman descended from a Knightly ancestry
3) Knight - A non-heritable honorific bestowed by the Crown
4) Baronet - An hereditary Knighthood that stood above all other knightly orders.

But gentlemen and esquires reach down into the middle class. Barristers, officers of the rank of or above army captain, Masters of Arts and Bachelors of Law and Physic were all esquires by virtue of their jobs. Even more so descendents of knights and of younger sons of peers 'in perpetuity'. After a few generations they could be eking out lives as scriveners or eek authors!

The gentry that was consider part of the upper class were the landed gentry, and baronets seem to have been considered part of the landed gentry, not a separate class, at least not by Edwardian times.

In the above structure, the overlap between Local and Imperial Upper Classes occurs primarily in the Soc=10 to Soc=12 range (Soc=13 in a few extreme cases). By comparing the Soc-value between the Local & Imperial levels, one can gauge the likely Imperial-title that might be granted to a local leader that the Emperor chooses to favor.

That's exactly how my own system works.

You're off to a good start, but I think your partition of the middle class and your gentry/baronet distinction are unsound.


Hans

 

[aramis]

The Gentry as a social caste are best seen exclusively as the landed gentry sans titles and the immediate heirs of nobles. The UK system isn't the only one, however, and a look at the Russian system (where more than a few peasants wound up as counts, and at least one as a duke), and yet the Royals (grand ___, prince, tsar) remained a cut above the whole mess, seems a MUCH better fit.

Then again, admission to certain schools as a youth was restricted by parent rank - it wasn't until one was in government service that one's own rank could diverge.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Soc 9 is perhaps not the very top of the planetary social pyramid.

SOC has always given me trouble because to me a good portion would be location specific. SOC 9 or whatever on one planet might not mean much elsewhere.

After some stranger gets stunned and sent to prison after loitering and getting belligerent when asked to move on.
Judge: "You may be the Duke of Dust on your desert world but here you obey the laws and don't disrespect our peace officers."

 

[rancke]

SOC has always given me trouble because to me a good portion would be location specific. SOC 9 or whatever on one planet might not mean much elsewhere.

After some stranger gets stunned and sent to prison after loitering and getting belligerent when asked to move on.

Judge: "You may be the Duke of Dust on your desert world but here you obey the laws and don't disrespect our peace officers."

But if the local nobility recognizes the Duke of Dust as a peer and an insult to him as tantamount to an insult to them, the peace officers will most likely go along with it.

Here's an excerpt from an article I wrote long ago but never got accepted anywhere¹, so this is not meant as evidence but just to give you my ideas on the subject.

¹ And, sadly, Jon Zeigler didn't go for the idea either when he was working on GT:Nobles.​

The Imperium has solved this problem by creating the Imperial Division of Heraldry (IDH). This is ostensibly an Imperial department for the registration of heraldic coats of arms and equivalent devices, but in reality their most important function is to evaluate local titles, offices, and positions and translate them into equivalent Imperial social positions. On the recommendation of the IDH the holder of a given title, office, or position automatically receives a knighthood in an appropriate Imperial order. This just as automatically gives him or her a fitting position in Imperial society.
​

(Note: The Division of Heraldry is canonical, but not the non-ostensible function.)

Basically, I see social levels of the Imperium and of the member worlds as having a large degree of transitivity. If the ruler of of a region on one world is considered the social peer of Imperial barons, and the ruler of a region on another world is considered a peer of Imperial barons, then the two worlds have a yardstick with which to relate to each others' social ranks.


Hans

 

[Marchand]

The problem that rancke is pointing out is that anyone, of any social status, can join the 'noble' career, and rise in power to retire as a head of state ... and his social status is completely unchanged by the experience. The complaint is not that it is a rare possibility (like the Spanish Minister you mention). The complaint is that under the rules as written, it is the normal result. Rank in the 'noble' career carries no social weight.

I get the point. It's still only a 17% chance of rolling 10+, going down sharply with penalties for low-SOC. And I can think of at least one similar real-world example. So overall it just isn't that big a deal to me. I can see why it might be an issue for others, though.

 

[Marchand]

No, but the adventures and setting details all assume that interstellar society is pretty much like Western society unless specifically stated otherwise.

Where that kind of thing does crop up (although I must admit, I'm struggling to think of clear examples apart from in GURPS), I would probably see it as just writer creative laziness.

I vaguely recall one reference to Mohammed Chang being the most common name either in Charted Space or on the Solomani Rim, although I can't think where now.

 

[Dagrill]

-- Plans a career in the Ministry of State
If my character has a Soc of 10 or more, it can automatically join the nobility career. But if not, I can still roll for qualification? So if my character has a Soc of 2 (giving him a -2 to the qualification throw) and I'm lucky enough to throw 12, he gets to join the nobility career? And if the dice favor him, he can end up as a Rank 6 Minister with hundreds of thousands of credits and TAS membership and ship shares towards a luxury yacht... and Soc 2?
Hans

Not unreasonable bearing in mind the character starts as a junior assistant, I would use life events to increase Soc by at least 1 every time the character is promoted, it's a big thing, getting rank 5 or 6 certainly worth a knighthood when you approach retirement.

Looking at the tables is good to see that personal development is as likely to give Blade skill as an increase in Soc, very useful for stabbing people in the back!

Reminds me of my life except I only made Rank 3,

regards

David