"Unskilled laborer joins the nobility!"

[MongooseMatt]

it's the chance that he could be come a high government official and still remain SOC 2.

That is understandable. However, there are chances to increase SOC through Skills and Trainng, Events and Mustering Out. That said, if we were to reivse the core career, I would be tempted to have automatic SOC increases within the ranks of Administrator and Diplomat. That would also solve your issue here;

Mind you, I do think that mashing administrators, bureaucrats, diplomats, and actual nobles into a single career strains the system though possibly not beyond breaking point.

That is also why we did the Dilettante book (still one of my favourites ).

 

[Marchand]

To reiterate:
The issue is: Apart from results rolled on the Mishap or Life Events Tables in Noble CharGen, is it at all reasonable that someone of humble origins who has already entered the Nobles Career could advance to high levels within that career and exit the career still of humble status afterward as the NORM, not the exception.

[I thought the whole post was a helpful summary of the discussion; thanks]

Two points:

1) It depends where you start the stats analysis. Implicitly, in this discussion we've started from a PC of SOC-2 who has successfully entered the Noble profession. But if it were possible [and I know it isn't] to survey the % of players who attempt to enter the Noble profession having rolled SOC-2, the % of characters who make it through a noble career successfully would I imagine be vanishingly small. And probably not that inconsistent with real life. The point I'm making is that the discussion so far has omitted that player choice is an integral part of the chargen process.

2) But more fundamentally, I just don't see why it's a problem that the rules allow this. I love it that the rules are capable of throwing up superficially illogical outcomes that require me to exercise my creativity.

Some people seem hate it. OK. If you want to treat chargen as a statistical model of OTU "real" demographics, let's take it to its logical conclusion...

Step 1: roll 4D. Roll 4 or 24 to save against being some sort of lower middle class office cubicle drone if you're lucky, or underclass wage slave if you're not.

 

[atpollard]

Step 1: roll 4D. Roll 4 or 24 to save against being some sort of lower middle class office cubicle drone if you're lucky, or underclass wage slave if you're not.

Don't be ridiculous, with all that automation the largest demographic group will be "unemployed".

 

[Dagrill]

And I would add further: If under the MgT Core Rules a Navy or Marine Officer attaining Rank-5 or Army Officer attaining Rank-6 automatically gains minimum Soc=10 (Gentleman), and a Navy Officer upon attaining Rank-6 automatically gains minimum Soc=12 (Baronet/Baron), then why should we expect any less for someone in the actual Nobles Career proper? Certainly the branches of the Armed Forces are not more Socially-advancing that high-levels of Noble-administered government.

Totally agree, social standing is based on the position you hold and how you conduct yourself in it. It's probably the attribute most in flux in the game (and life) as different people perceive you from different viewpoints.

Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

Diplomat.... here we might have an issue but if we consider that the low soc character getting qualified for diplomat is statistically rare and not the norm and moving up through the ranks is statistically difficult with a -DM, then it is not a common thing to have a low SOC high rank diplomat. If somehow the dice fall that way, so be it.

It's worth remembering that the mustering out benefits are accumulated over the career and not all at the end. So there are plenty of opportunities to improve SOC during the career that are recognised by increasing SOC on the mustering out table.

Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

A low SOC Dilettante, to my mind, might also cover someone like Jade Goody (non-Brits may have to look her up, though anyone from India may remember her...).

OK, I'm British and I had to look her up as I've never heard of her.

Regards

David

 

[McPerth]

And I would add further: If under the MgT Core Rules a Navy or Marine Officer attaining Rank-5 or Army Officer attaining Rank-6 automatically gains minimum Soc=10 (Gentleman), and a Navy Officer upon attaining Rank-6 automatically gains minimum Soc=12 (Baronet/Baron), then why should we expect any less for someone in the actual Nobles Career proper? Certainly the branches of the Armed Forces are not more Socially-advancing that high-levels of Noble-administered government.

I disagree: I can foresee being a low Soc ambassador (noble/Diplomat Rank 6), to give you an example, though probably to a unimportant ambassy. Remember historically (mostly before instant communications) those ambassies were used to remove someone from the cycles of power without officially punishing him (akin an exile with honors). Of course, the ambassy you are assigned as Ambassador will probably depend on the Soc, but the Rank will be the same in both cases (ambassador, Rank 6).

OTOH, a high Rank military is always seen as an important post, regardless the army he's in or the unit he really commands (if he even commands any).

 

[McPerth]

A low SOC Dilettante, to my mind, might also cover someone like Jade Goody (non-Brits may have to look her up, though anyone from India may remember her...).

OK, I'm British and I had to look her up as I've never heard of her.

Regards

David

I think on a low Soc Dilettante as many of those "famous people" that are in TV shows because they were on some reality show and that just are bon-vivants that live from the fame those shows and some magazines give them.

 

[Marchand]

OK, I'm British and I had to look her up as I've never heard of her.

Regards

David

...and I thought I was out of touch with this stuff

[I definitely am anyway]

 

[Dagrill]

I think on a low Soc Dilettante as many of those "famous people" that are in TV shows because they were on some reality show and that just are bon-vivants that live from the fame those shows and some magazines give them.

Actually I was thinking Lady Hamilton might be a good example of SOC 2, marrying up to a B, (And having immense diplomatic influence in Naples), then ending up back as a 2.

Regards

David

 

[McPerth]

Actually I was thinking Lady Hamilton might be a good example of SOC 2, marrying up to a B, (And having immense diplomatic influence in Naples), then ending up back as a 2.

Regards

David

But in this case, her TL also raised...

 

[Dagrill]

...and I thought I was out of touch with this stuff
[I definitely am anyway]

My normal method of watching the news is on mute & only turning the volume up if something catches my attention, like the Malay aircraft shot down. In 2009 I was in a RTA accident which basically made my mind up to give up work as it wasn't worth the risk.

Regards

David

 

[rancke]

Actually I was thinking Lady Hamilton might be a good example of SOC 2, marrying up to a B, (And having immense diplomatic influence in Naples), then ending up back as a 2.

SOC of spouses is a special case. What about good examples of people who earned their way up to a position normally held by someone with SOC B and nevertheless remained SOC 2? A middle class actor who becomes president does't get snubbed by kings and queens, he gets invited to visit. (For that matter, he doesn't go back to being middle class afterwards. He becomes an high-status ex-president).


Hans

 

[rancke]

I disagree: I can foresee being a low Soc ambassador (noble/Diplomat Rank 6), to give you an example, though probably to a unimportant ambassy.

He still gets treated with all the courtesy that all the other ambassadors feel is their due.

Remember historically (mostly before instant communications) those ambassies were used to remove someone from the cycles of power without officially punishing him (akin an exile with honors).

Which means that anyone so treated for such a reason would have power that they could be removed from. Which suugests the trappings of power, which includes high social standing. If he was still SOC 2, there wouldn't be any need to remove him.

Of course, the ambassy you are assigned as Ambassador will probably depend on the Soc, but the Rank will be the same in both cases (ambassador, Rank 6).

Out of the way diplomatic postings usually go to officials with low seniority (paying their dues) and to people who have blundered.

OTOH, a high Rank military is always seen as an important post, regardless the army he's in or the unit he really commands (if he even commands any).

I don't see any difference between out of the way diplomatic posts and out of the way military posts nor any difference between high diplomatic rank and high military rank.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

He still gets treated with all the courtesy that all the other ambassadors feel is their due.

As long as they keep the post, and in the country where the embassy is (probably a small, unimportant country in any case). As son as it leaves that post (and that's what ending CharGern means), he will probably be seen as a failure if the only posts he has had as such ones (even while he will keep the Rank earned).

And he's unlikely to have obtained the important contacts high Soc also represents...

Which means that anyone so treated for such a reason would have power that they could be removed from. Which suugests the trappings of power, which includes high social standing. If he was still SOC 2, there wouldn't be any need to remove him.

But those ambassies usually meant a loss of power (and so Soc).

Out of the way diplomatic postings usually go to officials with low seniority (paying their dues) and to people who have blundered.

Today you may well be right (but more in lower ranks tan in Ambassador Rank), but in feudal/aristocratic societies (as 3I represents), Soc was more important than seniority (and all too often than capability) in this posts.

I don't see any difference between out of the way diplomatic posts and out of the way military posts nor any difference between high diplomatic rank and high military rank.

Most High Rank military are not really out of the way, but (unless in command) in staff positions, that also bring status and power. An ambassador in an out of the way post (let's say the Imperial representative in Pixie) brings neither and some times can be seen more as a scorn in the carreer than anything else (while stil lbeing technically a promotion, if he was not ambassador previously).

 

[CosmicGamer]

I don't see any difference between out of the way diplomatic posts and out of the way military posts nor any difference between high diplomatic rank and high military rank.

Being sent to a remote area could be considered sending someone out of the way.

or

Being sent to a remote area for the Imperial military could be seen as a sign of trust and responsibility.



Being sent coreward could be so that one has less responsibility and is closer and has less freedom to act independently.

or

Being sent coreward could be seen as a reward for a job well done, a more luxurious, less dangerous position where you make the big decisions.

 

[jeffepp]

OK, my 2 cents on the question. A few possible answers to the question of why so many don't come out with higher SS:

First, we need to realize that many in the "Noble" careers are not nobles themselves, but are WORKING for nobles. They are on the staff of a noble, or high administrator, or what ever, and are "borrowing" their employers rank. The term "gopher" has dropped out of popularity, but is useful. Yes, if by chance they do well, they actually advance in an actual rank, but otherwise, they just work for the real "noble".

That SS2 person is employed to deal with the things that need done in low places, with low people. They are the ones that score the drugs for the big party, get the hookers, and clean up things afterwords. Yes, they may get money and contacts from their term, but they never get a boost to their SS because they are the ones that do the dirty work.

Further, they are the fall guys. They are the ones to take the heat from the law. They are the ones that get checked over at customs, wait at the back door in the rain, and have passed by someone from "up stairs" every time they come through security.

Second, Social Standing can be a temporary thing. Your 15 minutes of fame get you a position in a government somewhere, but may not keep you there. Maybe you were assaulted on camera, by local security forces. To keep you from making a lot of interviews with the newsies, you get a job sorting rubber bands, in some sub-sub-sub-basement cubbyhole of an "office". No one sees you, no one cares, because they forgot you exist. Anything you take away, you get from working the system, not the social networks.

Third, you got your position from someone important. Whether by some family connection, or because someone owed you a favor, you got in. Everyone knows this, and you never escape it. You could be the best at your job, and yet any advance you earn is chalked up to your benefactor's influence. Rumors fly that you slept your way to the top, that you have blackmail on the ambassadors wife, that you are really working for the secret police, that you pay someone a fraction of your salary to do your work for you on the sly. Yes, most of the rumors are true, but none the less they hamper your climb up the social ladder, and keep you an outsider.

Part of character generation is telling the story of how the things you rolled up happened. The system cannot generate that part for you, it's up to you, and those with you, to come up with that. Anywhere the rules don't explain things in detail, we, as role-players, get to fill in the gaps. The spaceways are filled with failed former "nobles", for whom it would be best if they never returned home. You get to tell the story of one of them. So, tell it!

[Note: I do not have the Dilettante book. It's on my wishlist, though.]

 

[Pagan priest]

That is understandable. However, there are chances to increase SOC through Skills and Trainng, Events and Mustering Out. That said, if we were to reivse the core career, I would be tempted to have automatic SOC increases within the ranks of Administrator and Diplomat. That would also solve your issue here;



That is also why we did the Dilettante book (still one of my favourites ).

One of my favorites too. Now if only there were a book for the hard working
hereditary/career nobles charged with running the space way in the name of the Emperor... :CoW:

 

[rancke]

In regards to Soc characteristic, I think it entirely possible. The norm... my thoughts vary. I think a typical dilettante could move up from wastrel to Ingrate, Black Sheep and Scoundrel without any increase in Social standing. An administrator, still not much of an issue; int, and edu and skills in admin and such may very well be more important than social standing for this nobility career specialization.

I think I've spotted the problem. MgT (and you) are conflating different careers with the same names.

Being a dilletante is not a noble career (it's not a career at all, really, but let's ignore that). Anyone can be a dilletante if he has the funds, and there are plenty of non-noble dilletantes. Being a noble dilletante is a noble career. Administrator and diplomat are not noble careers either. You could with equal justification say that military officer and ruler and landholder are noble careers. The difference between a noble administrator and a non-noble administrator is that the noble is a noble and the non-noble isn't. That the two cross paths at the ministry doesn't make the non-noble clerk a noble administrator.

As I've mentioned before, I think putting those three specializations together under the title Nobility is the biggest issue. The following is the only one that really seams to fit.

I agree. If those three specializations are included, every other career that nobles tend to enter should be there too.

Diplomat.... here we might have an issue but if we consider that the low soc character getting qualified for diplomat is statistically rare and not the norm and moving up through the ranks is statistically difficult with a -DM, then it is not a common thing to have a low SOC high rank diplomat. If somehow the dice fall that way, so be it.

That's because any prodigy of low social status who gets promoted to high diplomatic rank for his astounding achievements advances to the appropriate social level. Just as anyone who gets promoted to officer has his social rank raised. The mechanism is totally analogous.

If one hands out free SOC you now make it more common for the low SOC character that somehow gets into the career to gain soc and continue moving up in ranks. Is that the "norm" for people who somehow manage to get a assistant or intern position to all be quite good and capable and earn soc so they keep advancing?

No, the norm is that they don't keep advancing. But if they do advance, their social status goes up.

Does the ambassador of one country to another on some TL8 world have the same SOC as an imperial ambassador of one world to another, as the imperial ambassador of one sub sector to another, as the imperial ambassador to the Aslan...

Depends. Does he have the same title and pay? If so, yes. Does the setting specify several different levels of ambassdor or just one? I)n the first case, ambassadors to small poky countries would be of the lower rank and have lower social status. In the second case, the big important ambassadors elevate their lesser impressive colleagues to their own level. Just as kings of small countries had higher status than dukes of bigger provinces because those dukes' king treated the small king as a peer-


Hans

 

[jeffepp]

When considering the topic, remember that characters are exceptional individuals, not run of the mill.

Further, Social Status does not give noble rank, rather the other way around. The best salesmen may have a high SS, getting them into the best parties and boardrooms to make deals, but have no standing outside of the sales pitch related hobnobbing. And, SS may not transfer from one situation to another. High rank in a religious organization may go far at home, but in a place that has little liking for religion, all most worthless.

Social Standing, without Rank
Consider Paris Hilton, a real “noble” in the US, born into a wealthy family, with a famous name. A classic Dilettante, she ran around talentlessly doing stupid stuff on TV (and in certain videos), because she could afford to buy herself the attention. Meanwhile, one of her hanger-ons, of no real social standing (daughter of the lowest of the low, a lawyer), catches the eye of the public. (That is, she had her own sex tape.) Now, she and her siblings are extremely popular and have a high SS, yet they would be considered anything but noble. In a few years, she will slip back into obscurity, as her looks fade, and others come along to take her place in the spotlight, and her SS will return to it's lesser level.

Power, without Social Standing
Another point is that many administrators in any government or corporation never reach a high SS, yet gain high place in the organization. They do their job, and do it well, or well enough, but are not the ones that go out in front of the press, or host the big party. They are the ones that make sure the event goes off without a hitch, and woe be the one to screw things up, as they have the power to put you in your place. These people often have the word “Executive” in their title, but are not executives, themselves. They are fine with that, as they are not leadership material. A good example of this can be found in the book “Lucifer's Hammer”, by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle (from who's “Mote in God's Eye” universe the Traveller 3rd Imperium seems to get it's structure.) The Senator's assistant, his number one, is not going to be the one to replace him as leader. Much of the book deals with the question of who will end up in the “Throne”, which will have that same assistant standing behind it.

Now, the real trick is not to get caught up in what the rules say, or don't say. Or, in what seems logical, or not. Don't worry about whether something is “broken” or not. Your job, whether you are player or GM, is to find a story that makes it work. That's right, make it up! This is the results that the dice and tables gave you, now you get to connect the dots. Don't expect the rules to fill in , or explain, everything, that's your part.

Then, again, you often don't have to, either. Obsessing about a characters past may not be productive, from a game point. If you are running and gunning most of the time, is it important that the PC didn't get that SS boost in creation? Spending effort on that part of the process may not be what you really need to do. Just as a game master may over prep for a session that never uses anything he made, spending hours justifying the dice rolls may never pan out, as the topics never come up in play.