Upgrading the LBB2 Trade System

[Golan2072]

To say the truth, I love the LBB2 trade system far more than Merchant Prince. It gives describable (and sometimes usable as plot-device) trade goods, along with a simple system to simulate the market's fluctuations (sp?). Its major advantage over Merchant Pribce (besides being far simpler, that is, and having specific goods), is the fact that some cargos are much more valuable than others; speculating in Radioactives, for example, requires alot more starting capital than speculating in Steel, but also yealds much more credits for every percent of profit. I love that system; and I wish to improve and streamline it without increasing complexity.

But the system is far from flawless. Some trade goods (especially manufactured ones) do not fit their prices-per ton presented in LBB3 (for example, ATVs); some (such as firearms) would yeald strange results when compared to the prices of LBB4 equipment (e.g. in LBB2 terms, a "ton" of ACRs will only hold 30 of them). the price problems are sadly carried over to the trading cards.

Also, are the limits on the number of tons available on every planet nescery (given the limited funds and cargo holds of freelance trader ships)? IIRC Merchant Prince didn't have them.

I'm also toying with the possibilities of "planetary specialities", i.e. items that are always available on one planet, or items that are always in demand on another - it gives the market a flavor.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

I agree with the "planetary specialities" - wholeheartedly.

 

[aramis]

Tonnage limits are essential, but only when a ship gets big enough.

Here are the Bk2 problems addressed in T20 during the playtest:
1) Bk2 allows one roll ship seeking cargos to buy
---> T20 allows several, by starport type (A->X: 1d8, 1d6, 1d4, 1d3, 1d2, 1)
2) Bk2 pricing issues
---> Not fixed; Cr 2142/kL is 10 rifles or 2 autorifles...
3) Bk2 provides that a purchaseable cargo is always available
---> T20 requires a roll to find available cargos; one roll per week per trader
4) Bk2 fails to provide for PC Brokers
---> T20 was built with them in mind.
5) Bk2 has only 36 entries.
---> T20 has 100.

The big problem is that T20's T&C is only available in T20...

I like the idea of certain worlds always having certain goods available. Mining worlds should always have mining results available, if any cargoes are available. Ag worlds should always have foodstuffs of some form available, if any cargoes are available. However realistic this would be, it would add another layer of complexity.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Aramis:
...4) Bk2 fails to provide for PC Brokers
---> T20 was built with them in mind.

I think this is one place T20 failed, not Book 2. PC Brokers are in my opinion a mistake, at least the typical PC kind. If you Travel to a new market every week you're not going to have the knowledge of the local trends and the contacts to be an effective broker. I can see the travelling broker being limited to a set of a few or several worlds if they stick to a route (i.e. a subsidized route of 2-12 systems could employ an onboard broker) but the broker would be operating at a disadvantage on each world. At least a -2 in CT and probably a -4 in T20. To avoid that disadvantage most subbies would have a broker on each world, either hired from the population or set up as a local crew factor that doesn't travel.

 

[far-trader]

Addendum to the above. If I were feeling fair

I suppose I might allow a PC broker to eliminate the negative by taking a week (ta da ) to get to know the local market. If I were feeling generous I might even go so far as to allow them to regain their ability at say 1 level per week on world spent learning the local market.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Aramis:

I like the idea of certain worlds always having certain goods available. Mining worlds should always have mining results available, if any cargoes are available. Ag worlds should always have foodstuffs of some form available, if any cargoes are available. However realistic this would be, it would add another layer of complexity.

So, it is possible to create one "available goods" table per world type; selling will be theoretically possibly on any world, but will be modified by world type.

 

[far-trader]

As to the named specific cargos (i.e. Shotguns instead of just Weapons) I did it a little differently.

Weapons per the table at the base of Cr30,000 were in my thinking "Weapon parts". Nothing useful for actually easily making a full weapon.

Specific weapons if it came up would have been handled a little differently from the example given in the book for Shotguns.

I'd have used the example as a baseline but reasoned it something like this:

Use the loaded weight plus ~10% (in most cases) to represent the inclusion of a magazine and packing.

Use the loaded cost plus ~10% (in most cases) to represent the inclusion of a magazine and packing.

Round both these estimates to come to a nice evenish number of guns and base price.

Example 1- Shotguns

loaded shotgun is ~ 5kg (rounded 4.5 x ~1.1)

1 ton (1000kg) is therefore 200 shotguns

price per unit is ~ Cr175 (rounded 160 x ~1.1)

1 ton (1000kg) is therefore Cr35,000 (200 units)

Example 2 - SMGs

loaded SMG is ~ 3.33kg (rounded 3 x ~1.1)

1 ton (1000kg) is therefore 300 smgs

price per unit is ~ Cr533 (rounded 520 x ~1.1)

1 ton (1000kg) is therefore Cr160,000 (300 units)

Example 3 - Laser Rifle (no powerpack)

Laser Rifle is ~ 6.66kg (rounded 6 x ~1.1)

1 ton (1000kg) is therefore 150 laser rifles

price per unit is ~ Cr3666 (rounded 3500 x ~1.1)

1 ton (1000kg) is therefore Cr550,000 (150 units)

 

[Golan2072]

I'm currently thinking about two possible directions this system could be modified; I'll try to decide on one and go with it.

The first is to have several "specialities" of each world type (and possibly ONE really special speciality per specific world that I generate), always available at relatively large quantities and with favorable price DMs. In addition, there will be a table of randomly available items (either 36 or 216, that is either from 11 to 66 or from 111 to 666

) ala LBB2. Is is kinda like the trade system in the Starflight 2 computer game: some planets have specialities, but there are also "general goods" of several types on a random basis.

The other way is to have a whole different (36-item) table per world kind.

In either system, any item not on the table but in the CT (LBBs 1, 3 or 4) equipment section (or Striker if you really want to be a big-time arms-dealer with all consequences) could be added by the procedure far-trader has outlined; finding such goods to buy will be a UGM Task with a difficulty determined by the referee (such as Easy for things such as Electric Torches or Formidable for Nuclear Dampners).

 

[aramis]

FT:

my experience shows that many weapons are packed in crates which weigh as much as or more than the weapon.

Crated AK's run ~100% of weapon weight for packaging.

And Dan, the difficulties make it clear that unless the port is flourishing, it's easier to hire local.

Quite honestly, PC brokers are part of the genre, at least since Bk7... and were one of the chafing bits in Bk2; you had to hire them, they cost you money, and could have been abstracted away UNLESS there was potential for it to be a PC.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

And why are folks worried about weight anyway? Isn't this a CT tool? Brand new rifles (like AKs, and in individual boxes) would run about 50 to the dTon by my guesstimate. (I figured about 1.25m x .75m x .33m.)

 

[far-trader]

The reason for the use of weight is that CT does reference 1ton as being 1000kg in a some places. And specifically in the example of calculating how many of a type of weapon are in a ton.

Aramis, you're quite correct of course, I wasn't too worried about packing and such, figuring the ~ 10% would be close enough to represent an ideal volume. Interstellar shippers are going to be worried more about packing the crate as full as possible than weight limits or even in transit shifting (since the hold and maybe even the crates will all be inertially damped throughout the process, no bumping and banging, dropping and sliding, ideally )

But even so I'd calculate it as ideal and then add a packing factor after. 100% is easy, just halve the number of units and the total price. 200% divide by 3, and so on. It's interesting that AK's need that much packing given the legendary abuse they can take and still work, heck I'd think you could just dump them in a box and throw (literally) it in the back of a truck to slide and bang around on some rutted dirt track for a couple hundred miles and they'd come through with no problems

Not so for many other guns

I got the idea in Book 2 that having to hire brokers and pay them WAS the point

You know, divest the PCs of their ill gotten gains, make them dependant on playing the contact with the local broker, and all that. I never got the idea from it that it should be a PC skill, at least not one for a travelling PC. MTU v YTU I guess, at least until they did make it a PC skill, at which point I think an error of judgement was made by someone and then it's MTU v OTU and c'est la vie.

 

[mike wightman]

I can understand both sides of the PC brokers argument.
In the early CT days the brokers were planet bound representatives who know about local trade paterns and potentials. It sort of makes sense that these people would occasionally travel to the trade partner worlds to learn more about them - passengers have to have a reason to be spending all that money on ticket prices

When Merchant Prince let PCs have the broker skill that made me think about what a brokerage firm is and does.

I decided that IMTU there are several brokerage firms - with links to noble houses and megacorps naturally - who operate a cartel.

When a new world enters the Imperium proper (or more likely years before if the world is wealthy and worth developing the contacts) the brokerage firms will compete for the brokerage rights to that planet. Several firms may eventually be established if there is sufficient trade to warrant it.

PCs who gain broker skill have gained certification and chartered broker status, and by agreement with the "brokerage guild" may use the local trade database. Higher skill levels, i.e. accreditation, allows access to the more sensative data, and to data covering a wider area.

1 local cluster of worlds
2 subsector
3 local trade main
4 sector wide

 

[far-trader]

That's an excellent rationalization Sigg. Thanks for sharing

 

[Golan2072]

I like that too, Sigg

Anyway, I'm still trying to decide on a way to update the system, and I'm leading towards the few speciality goods per world/otherwise 36-item list option.

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by far-trader:
As to the named specific cargos (i.e. Shotguns instead of just Weapons) I did it a little differently.

Weapons per the table at the base of Cr30,000 were in my thinking "Weapon parts". Nothing useful for actually easily making a full weapon.

Specific weapons if it came up would have been handled a little differently from the example given in the book for Shotguns.

I'd have used the example as a baseline but reasoned it something like this:

Use the loaded weight plus ~10% (in most cases) to represent the inclusion of a magazine and packing.

Use the loaded cost plus ~10% (in most cases) to represent the inclusion of a magazine and packing.

Small problem: the CT Ton isn't mass, but volume, probably with about a 10Mg limit per Td. While not inherently clear in Bk2, it is DEADLY clear in TTA and some of the other adventures. It is vaguely presented in Bks 5 & 7.


Fritz:
AK crates, when I saw them, were 1.25m x 0.5m x 0.33m Ext Dim., boxes constructed of 1.5cm planks, two layers. Packed with curled wood shavings, shredded newsprint, and a plastic bag protecting the packing from the cosmo and vice versa.

The 0.75m wide box (there was one) carried two SKS's; upper receivers outside, bolts handles up, barrels pointed opposite. A pair of blocks kept them from sliding into each other; by the trigger guards.

So, you can increase your numbers quite a bit, if you choose, all the way to double.

 

[mike wightman]

In the example on page 43, 48 of LBB2 revised edition, the shipping ton is clearly 1000kg.

The same example is used on page 104 of The Traveller Book.

 

[robject]

I like the idea of specialized cargo available per world type. Perhaps one could implement that with a table for each trade code (Ag Na In Ni Ri Po De Ic As Va). Roll on the appropriate table for goods available.

 

[parmasson]

Population and tech level should play a role too. We have one popular run between an agricultural world and a polluted high population world. An rich, industrial, TL 13, population 9, vacuum world will be a huge market for agricultural goods.It will be a large supplier of manufactured high tech, high value added goods.

 

[Merxiless]

As I recall, there was a great Challenge article covering cargoes in Traveller.

I'll look through my files and see If I can find it, and my house rules I wrote up as an addition.

 

[Golan2072]

So one table per trade code, with a DM for TL, then?