Upgrading the LBB2 Trade System

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Hyphen:
Dear Folks -

Many years ago, I combined the "Cargo: A Merchant Prince Variant" article from Challenge #26 with the LBB2 rules and came up with a large set of cargo tables.

[Taunting Sample Tables]

...thing is, there's probably something ridiculous like 50 pages of tables in this system. This is why I've never "webified" it.

Thoughts?

Nudge, nudge?

 

[robject]

I was thinking about Hyphen's tables a little bit, and thought perhaps that a more generic top-level 2D table may have the same general effect as his unique-per-trade-code 2D table:

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Red White
1 2 3 4 5 6
1 ------- Local --------
2 ------- Local --------
3 ------- Local --------
4 ------- Local --------
5 Ag Ba De Fl In Po
6 Ri Va Wa Ic ?? ??</pre>[/QUOTE]For each trade code, if the result is "Local", then goods from that trade code are determined. If the result is offworld, then the source's trade code is shown.

Next, a set of 12 (?) small tables with 2D entries each, basically 12 goods per trade code. (The problems with my idea begin when a trade code has nothing to offer...).

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Industrial trade code:
2 Electronics n-w-v-p
3 Gravitics n-w-v-p
4 Vehicles n-w-v-p
5 Weapons n-w-v-p
6 Body armor n-w-v-p
7 Refined goods n-w-v-p
8 Consumer goods n-w-v-p
9 Machinery n-w-v-p
10 Equipment n-w-v-p
11 Fusion components n-w-v-p
12 Cybernetics n-w-v-p</pre>[/QUOTE]n-w-v-p is something like number-weight-volume-price. Whatever works.

Then maybe apply some variability to the entry with a 2D/2 multiplier or something.

 

[tbeard1999]

I was never satisfied with the trading system in CT because it was too easy for players to make *lots* of money, especially if the subsector map fell the right (or wrong) way.

For instance, many goods can be bought on industrial worlds at a -3 to -5 price modifier, then sold on non-industrial worlds at a +2 or +3 modifier. This means that the goods would be bought by the characters for about 50% of base price, then sold for about 120% of base price, possibly after only 1 jump. If brokers are used -- and they should *always* be used by the players, the net selling price will average 140%, or nearly 3 times what was paid. Admin and Bribery skill can increase this by 10% per level of skill.

The bottom line is that it's pretty easy to sell goods for 2-3 times their cost, maybe after only 1 jump.

Worse, the possible price ranges can produce million-credit profits after a single jump. It doesn't take too many such occurences to wreck a campaign (or require the referee to victimize the players with all kinds of expenses). I'm just not fond of mechanics that can wreck a campaign just because of a couple of good -- or even average, in some cases -- die rolls.

This situation is also a poor reflection of what actually happens in trading. Returns of 2-3 times cost in a couple of weeks -- at least to civilized systems with little chance of loss -- should be rare, if not impossible. If a trade route was *that* lucrative, it would quickly be saturated by competitors. And as those competitors flooded the market, the prices would decline. Unfortunately, the CT trade system doesn't have a mechanism to account for that.

My solution is simple and seldom threatens to wreck the campaign. Every month, the characters make a 2d6 roll to determine net revenue. Let's assume that their operating expenses are cr100,000 per month. A "7" means that they broke even; in this case, they made cr100,000. Each number lower than 7 means a loss of X% (5% is typical). Each number higher than 7 means a gain of X% (again, 5% is typical). No modifiers apply to the rolls.

There are no speculative trade deals unless they are roleplayed.

 

[Straybow]

One way to keep players from making too much money is have them bid/ask. When buying they bid a price. The GM rolls. If the result is lower than or equal to the bid the players get the lot at their price. Otherwise somebody else gets the lot and it is gone, or perhaps they have a chance to accept a counter offer.

For selling it works the other way. Players set a price, the GM rolls, and if the buyer isn't willing to pay the asking price there may be a counter offer.

This way the players can't capitalize on the full range of buy and sell prices. It takes a bit more work for the players and GM.

In some cases the market will dictate the prices. Sellers are advertizing their products. Players interested in buying either pay the local price or try to haggle it down a bit. Players arriving with a cargo may have to drop their price below the local market to sell before they leave.

There will sometimes be the opposite: They find a lot at some bargain price, or they may find a desperate customer who outbids their asking price.

Plenty of opportunities for role play or adventure hooks in that.

 

[Hyphen]

[BUMP!] Trade Tables now available

Dear Folks -

Dear Folks -

Many years ago, I combined the "Cargo: A Merchant Prince Variant" article from Challenge #26 with the LBB2 rules and came up with a large set of cargo tables.

Nudge, nudge?

I have finally got around to webifying my Trade Tables. Well, part of them, anyway. I have only put up the Industrial world tables at this point.

Note that this is the "first cut". There are a few values omitted here and there (e.g. a few weights or volumes). And I haven't really put in the instructions for use. (Hopefully you can figure out that you roll for world, then specific cargo, and follow the links...)

Anyway, if you want to take a look go to my website (link below) and go here:
==> Tavonni Repair Bays
==> House Rules
==> Trade Tables

Hopefully robject and straybow will be a bit happier now...

 

[Hyphen]

Dear Folks -

OK, the Resource (Non-Industrial) World tables are now up.

 

[pendragonman]

Hyphen, I have finally looked at your site. I request permission to randomly steal stuff for my TU.

Thanks

 

[Hyphen]

Dear penragonman -

That's kinda the idea...

 

[Hyphen]

Dear Folks -

OK, the Agricultural World tables are now available.

 

[Hyphen]

Dear Folks -

Finally, the Water World tables are now available.

Still pending: Desert World and Fluid Ocean World (last two!!).

 

[ghashsnaga]

PDF of trade tables

Thank you for all the work on the trade tables and posting them on-line. Is there a possibility of putting them in a pdf file? Thanks.

Ara

 

[Hyphen]

Trade Tables completed!!!

Dear Folks -

I have finally finished the last sets of tables (Desert Worlds and Fluid Ocean Worlds) and they are now available.

This means that my Trade Tables are now complete!

YAY!!!!

(Still some tweaks required, such as the inclusion of the missing Battle Computers, but that's for later!)

For those who want to come and visit, they are on my website here:
==> Tavonni Repair Bays
==> House Rules
==> Trade Tables

 

[Hyphen]

Dear Folks -

OK, I've now added the Battle Computers table...

 

[robject]

David, thanks for putting these on-line!

 

[Mithras]

Unrelated to David's new tables ... are there big holes in the CT system? I seem to be making far too much money, in a 400 ton Type R just shuffling cargo from world to world. Cr200,000 a time, maybe a little extra if I'm buying and selling. My outgoings don't match that by a long way. Wages around Cr10,000/month, Fuel Cr5000 (unrefined all I can get on the current worlds I've been at), Cr100 berthing fees, maybe Cr150 - 200 on recreation. The ship is paid for.

I just want to break even, and struggle to make profits in the Spinward Main but it seems too easy. If I started really cutting corners and buying and selling aggressively I could easily double all my profits.

I have begun to shave off the very high percentage increases when using a Broker (not that I do). And perhaps cutting the income from flat cargos to Cr500 from Cr1000.

But I do hesitate to start bending the rules without trying them out 'straight'.

Maybe I should instead look at having the ship still being paid off....

EDIT: Ahh, I see the problem, I think! A Subsidized Merchant captain will also be paying Cr3,885 per jump, and a whopping Cr168,383 per jump to his creditors. Now I might have mucho difficulty keeping up with that!

 

[aramis]

if the ship is paid off, you should be rolling it in nicely.

I don't see you setting aside for annual maintenance, tho...

If you want struggles, you run a J3 on a standard loan. (Not that anyone should ever give you one without a proven track record.)

 

[far-trader]

Yep, subbies are spoiled rotten Especially the Type R which actually makes money. There are a couple things to remember though.

While you're subsidized (the first 40 years of the ship's life) you're stuck on a route (2-12 worlds). Booooring dull routine, and you know some of those worlds are going to suck, you'll be running with no passengers and little cargo just to provide service to your chartered worlds and maintain that Imperial contact.

Then when you're finally "free" and the ship is paid off, just when you think you're going to start raking in the profits they tell you oh yeah, just in case we need to mobilize you and the ship for use as an auxiliary you have to check in here every month, and to be sure you do we're putting a jump lock on your ship so you can't go beyond that contact range. And you know they'll find "something" for you to do now and then, even if it's just wargame maneuvers with the local fleet to keep everyone sharp in case the real thing happens. And you're not going to be making any profits during that time so you'd better have some socked away for the operational costs and crew salaries.

But then maybe I interpret the subsidized qualifications a bit cruelly

Now, if you somehow have acquired a Type R without being subsidized (the contractual obligations follow the ship even if resold after 40 years in my opinion) you're laughing all the way to the bank. You should be able to easily make your payments and once paid for you'll make even more profits.

 

[Mithras]

Mmm, I've begun to incorporate both annual maintenance fee and payments, and the margins are much tighter. I might regret turning those passenger staterooms into extra cargo space now....

if the ship is paid off, you should be rolling it in nicely.

I don't see you setting aside for annual maintenance, tho...

If you want struggles, you run a J3 on a standard loan. (Not that anyone should ever give you one without a proven track record.)