Uplifted Roman Empire

[Werner]

Here's the idea, a mysterious stranger managed to work his way into the court of Emperor Trajan in 113 AD. He manages to get the attention of the Emperor because he is from the future, the Solomani Confederation to be precise, he managed to steal a time machine and travel back to this time period and here he plans to change history. He brought a bunch of high tech gadgets and he has a stolen Imperium scout/courier ship equipped with a Time Jump Drive (perhaps of alien origin) aside from the time drive his gadgets are TL 15 or less, he figures on getting on the good side of the Emperor and building the Roman Empire into an Interstellar Empire.

What potential pitfalls are there?

How fast can the Roman Empire advance in tech level? I believe they have a population of 60 million out of a world population of 300 million. The time Traveller doesn't care about social reform, he is willing to let the Roman's be Roman's, he just wants a privileged position in their society. The Roman tech level is 1, he works on advancing the tech level to 7, introduces gunpowder, the internal combustion engine the airplane, the machine gun, etc.

Some social reforms sneak past him, advanced technology, the printing press causes Christianity to spread faster than in the original history. I'm not sure what these Christian's make of this stranger from the future. Some ideas spread faster, a few slave rebellions occur, as their work gets lighter due to advanced industrial automation, and no one discourages them to learn to read, they organize a rebellion, and the Germanic Tribes form an army.

 

[jcrocker]

Whatever the time traveller`s plan is, the `real-world`events probably are not going to go according to script. That`s the short version.

I don`t know that period well enough to give a really detailled prediction. But some groups would try to use the printing press to issue fake-official proclamations. Look for a lot of upheavals.

Or, the officials put in charge of the tech exploitation could decide to wire some of the temples with PA systems, so all and sundry can hear what Jupiter et al have to say, as they try to keep order.

Even without demonstrating military technology, something like a reliable weather service would do wonders for all those shipping loses due to storms. Or take a few USGS types along, they can work out volcano eruption warning systems, evacuate Pompeii before it`s paved over with lava.

A few plague vaccines would work wonders, prevent the depopulation problems. Even getting them to buy into the germ theory of disease would be a near-miracle.

Someone could go on for hours on the possibilities.

 

[Condottiere]

History rhymes.

First, you'd have to establish an institution that ensures civilization goes the way the time traveller intends. But before then, ensure his own survival and power base.

Selective vaccination and sanitation would allow the creation of a manpower pool that would in theory be mostly loyal; kickstarting the industrial revolution early would equip them for eventual global colonization.

 

[mike wightman]

Christianity wouldn't spread, in fact it is more than likely to be written out of this history.

The main technologies to introduce that are well within the Roman capability to develop quickly:
the blast furnace
the steam engine
glass making
gunpowder
that kicks off the industrial revolution
next you start to electrify so you build power stations and a distribution grid

Note that all of these large scale infra-structure developments will require a large, well motivated workforce, and they will ensure employment and prosperity for the majority

 

[Werner]

Whatever the time traveller`s plan is, the `real-world`events probably are not going to go according to script. That`s the short version.

I don`t know that period well enough to give a really detailled prediction. But some groups would try to use the printing press to issue fake-official proclamations. Look for a lot of upheavals.

Or, the officials put in charge of the tech exploitation could decide to wire some of the temples with PA systems, so all and sundry can hear what Jupiter et al have to say, as they try to keep order.

Even without demonstrating military technology, something like a reliable weather service would do wonders for all those shipping loses due to storms. Or take a few USGS types along, they can work out volcano eruption warning systems, evacuate Pompeii before it`s paved over with lava.

A few plague vaccines would work wonders, prevent the depopulation problems. Even getting them to buy into the germ theory of disease would be a near-miracle.

Someone could go on for hours on the possibilities.

The Roman Legion will take a while to adapt their tactics to modern weapons, they might fight in formations while the Germanic Barbarians develop guerilla tactics with modern weapons. The Roman's would move into the Americas and Australia, and of course there will be some resistance as they try and take over east asia, and Africa. Technology spreads fast. I can imagine Roman Soldiers marching on columns carrying automatic assault rifles, and so long as their opponents just have bows and arrows, spear, and swords, this will work fine for them, but the moment they get their own firearms and start shooting at the legions from under cover, this might be a problem.

 

[Werner]

Christianity wouldn't spread, in fact it is more than likely to be written out of this history.

The main technologies to introduce that are well within the Roman capability to develop quickly:
the blast furnace
the steam engine
glass making
gunpowder
that kicks off the industrial revolution
next you start to electrify so you build power stations and a distribution grid

Note that all of these large scale infra-structure developments will require a large, well motivated workforce, and they will ensure employment and prosperity for the majority

The Rome of this period is fairly secular, the Christian's are the minority, otherwise they might cause trouble for the Time Traveller's plans, also the time Traveller is basically a thief with Solomani sympathies, there is no organization behind him, he just saw a chance to steal a time machine and so he took it. What he wants is for the Roman Empire to dominate space instead of the First Imperium, so he wants an empire who's Capitol is on Terra, he is not a military expert, he has some technology files on the ships computer and reams of paper and printers, so he is printing out books on technology and science and sending them to the Library of Alexandria and to Rome. This is basic technology on how to build things going from tech level 1 to 15, and basically the Roman's are moving up the tech level scale having to develop the more basic technology before being able to develop the more advanced stuff. Their military is playing catchup, so this presents some opportunities for the barbarians they are trying to conquer, there is also the danger of Imperial overstretch. For most of the time traveller's life time, the Roman's are simply going to be trying to conquer the globe, they need to develop computer technology before they can build spaceships and so on. So most of the basic technology on how to build stuff in on paper including how to build printers, and so forth.

 

[mike wightman]

Your time travelling solomani better go read up Imperial history...

The Vilani began their consolidation war in 882BC, having discovered the jump drive in 4717BC, so 4000 years at TL9/10 and then a thousand years at TL11 by the time your traveller goes to Rome...

So your time traveller is going to pit his uplifted Roman Empire against the vast might of the Vilani in their most warlike period... good luck with that.

 

[Condottiere]

Then should have set the clock back a couple of more millenia.

Which ironically might make it historical, considering all that belief from some quarters about ancient astronauts and alien gods.

 

[whartung]

It would be a daunting job to build up the sustaining infrastructure to empower the technology. Going back with a few toys and some tech manuals alone isn't enough to do it.

Still need foundations of basic science, engineering disciplines, the mass material infrastructure to collect raw materials, electrical power and generation, the social governance to direct it properly.

Turning the Emperor in to a TED (a term from TNE, Technology Elevated Dictator), isn't enough.

Even were the traveller to stay healthy and live a normal life (say, to 80), I think he would be amazed how stymied progress really was even after 60 years. Leaps would be made, but, slower than they perhaps might enjoy.

You also need population density to start colonizing and conquering other worlds even if you do get the ships built.

 

[Werner]

Your time travelling solomani better go read up Imperial history...

The Vilani began their consolidation war in 882BC, having discovered the jump drive in 4717BC, so 4000 years at TL9/10 and then a thousand years at TL11 by the time your traveller goes to Rome...

So your time traveller is going to pit his uplifted Roman Empire against the vast might of the Vilani in their most warlike period... good luck with that.

Nothing stopping the time traveller from telling the Roman's about the Villani, and through a fluke of history the Villani never interfered with Earth until the 22nd century, so the Roman's have got 2000 years until they have to deal with them, unless they care to advance the timeline by making premature contact themselves.

The time traveller has specs for TL15 technology, its just a matter of the Roman's learning it and building the infrastructure for each successive advance in tech level.

Just a note about the time machine that the thief didn't realize before he stole it, the jump drive has a wormhole in it connecting two parallel universe, the one of the Roman's is a historic echo, it was exactly like Earth's history, and the Imperium was doing some research on it until this thief stole their one and only means of getting here. The Imperium left some field agents here to do some more research and they were to keep a low profile while awaiting pickup from the very same scout ship that our time traveller stole. There are three Imperium field agents disguised as Roman citizens, they are not happy!

 

[Werner]

It should take the Roman Empire about a century or two before it reaches tech level 15. The time Traveller that started this all is dead, his descendants still live but they are not as influential as he was, so it's the year 313 AD, though Christianity didn't rise to the level of importance as it did in our timeline, so the years are measured since the founding of Rome by the legendary Romulus and Remus, but we'll continue to use the AD calendar for reference. The population of the Earth has reached around 7 billion, though the Roman's have reached tech level 7 in the first 50 years, the Roman's slowed down their technological progress after developing nuclear weapons. The Empire was a world government by the time nukes.

 

[BackworldTraveller]

This is the Rome that we all know and love, you know the one that is basically tribal and hierarchical and violent and speaks a language that the scout doesn't speak.

The guys in power don't want the boat rocked and this scout has no cash - just ideas. How does he survive that first contact scenario where the sharp pointy sticks that the Romans so like to use on non-citizens are all out? Brutus wasn't the only schemer. Poisons were known and used. And even Emperors fell with rapidity.

It may well be that it's 50 years later and there's a Roman Equites (and staff) trying to work out how to speak Anglic and get the new Oracle to work.

 

[Timerover51]

His first problem would be staying alive long enough to get to the Emperor. Trajan was not in Rome a lot, spending time in the Middle East. Then there is the problem of a Roman succession to the Emperor position. Trajan was adopted by Nerva to guarantee him the job, and he in turn adopted Hadrian to guarantee him the job. Hadrian would view your time-traveller as a dangerous competitor for Trajan's favor, and take steps to retain his adopted son-to-Emperor position. Time traveller dies following a meal with either Trajan or Hadrian. Note, that does not factor either the Praetorian Guard and the Legions into the equation.

You also have the problem of the time traveller trying to change history, and as a by-product, eliminating himself from existence. Unless he comes from a time stream where this occurred, he may simply vanish into Limbo upon his arrival back in the Roman period. Given the changes you have him making, that is just about a given.

Last, but not least, the barbarians were starting to become more and more a problem from Trajan on. Hadrian's Wall in England is probably the best example of that. The Rhine frontier and the barrier of the Danube River were another. Marcus Aurelius died campaigning on the Danube frontier. Hadrian abandoned Trajan's conquests in the East as they over-extended Roman power, which was needed elsewhere.

Lastly, infrastructure takes a long time to build up.

 

[Werner]

Either there is free will or there is not. If there is no free will it is not a role playing game and you might as well read a book instead. If you read a book over and o er again, the characters have no free will, they always do the same thing g everytime you read it. There 8s no reason for this ti feline to be casually connected to the OTU. We're following the concept of a branching timeline rather than a linear on. Since the original timeline didn't contain you before you traveled, the addition of you to it will create a different outcome.

 

[BRJN]

The first problem is to figure out the resources needed to finish off 'a few minor details' - bring Scotland and Ireland into the Empire so it has no turnable flank in the Atlantic direction - this is organization and resource application rather than a technology problem. And a simultaneous neon-lit social problem: avoid Julius Caesar's fate, for the same reasons he suffered it.

Christianity does not get written off; at the time it is a faith that appeals to the underclass, and the upcoming technological changes will create a lot of people being pushed into the lower classes and others being lifted out of them. Legalization will not flow from a vision and a legion's sword points, but because some power player needs to mollify the home front.

 

[Enoki]

I'd estimate that within 200 to 300 years the Romans could potentially advance to the early to mid-19th Century.

There's a lot of invention and spread of those inventions that has to go on for that to happen. Some of the more critical inventions would have to be:

The printing press--and not just a simple screw type press but one capable of fairly large runs of print rapidly.

Steam power and steam engines.

Going to a water turbine rather than the overshot or under shot water wheel would be an early improvement in power

Improved metallurgy and refining methods.

Just making all this stuff and building the factories would take many decades on their own. You'd need to improve mining techniques for raw materials at the same time. That doesn't happen overnight.

The introduction of the scientific method along with the basics of chemistry, physics, and advanced mathematics. Without these you can't make much of what you need to get past basic levels in most industries.

The astrolabe and other navigation aids that allow open ocean travel.

Invention of electricity and electrical power. Even if this is just DC and things like a reliable battery, it would make a huge difference.

Introduction of vastly improved civil engineering / construction machinery and techniques. For example introducing the equivalent of Portland cement and reinforcement techniques for concrete would be invaluable.

Mechanization of agriculture would be necessary.

From a 19th Century technological status forward, things would develop a bit more rapidly but I can't see the Romans going to anything close to TL 12 to 15 in less than a millennia.

 

[Werner]

I'd estimate that within 200 to 300 years the Romans could potentially advance to the early to mid-19th Century.

There's a lot of invention and spread of those inventions that has to go on for that to happen. Some of the more critical inventions would have to be:

The printing press--and not just a simple screw type press but one capable of fairly large runs of print rapidly.

Steam power and steam engines.

Going to a water turbine rather than the overshot or under shot water wheel would be an early improvement in power

Improved metallurgy and refining methods.

Just making all this stuff and building the factories would take many decades on their own. You'd need to improve mining techniques for raw materials at the same time. That doesn't happen overnight.

The introduction of the scientific method along with the basics of chemistry, physics, and advanced mathematics. Without these you can't make much of what you need to get past basic levels in most industries.

The astrolabe and other navigation aids that allow open ocean travel.

Invention of electricity and electrical power. Even if this is just DC and things like a reliable battery, it would make a huge difference.

Introduction of vastly improved civil engineering / construction machinery and techniques. For example introducing the equivalent of Portland cement and reinforcement techniques for concrete would be invaluable.

Mechanization of agriculture would be necessary.

From a 19th Century technological status forward, things would develop a bit more rapidly but I can't see the Romans going to anything close to TL 12 to 15 in less than a millennia.

Well they have two millenia, since there is no changes that will affect the Vilani until the Roman's build their first starships, assuming the Empire does not break apart or collapse before then, the early age of gunpowder was a time of revolution in the 18th and 19th centuries. Would Roman colonies throughout the New World be any different from other European colonies in our world?
The Roman's had slaves of course, what would happen once the Roman's tried to conquer Africa? The Roman's had a tradition of conquering people, and those who fought back and lost were enslaved. I think the Romans will not try to conquer everywhere, they will rely on client States or tribes, so I think the trans-Atlantic slave trade will look much the same only that there will be only one colonial power instead of several. 19th century technology is from 50 to 300 years away, gunpowder and muskets/rifles will be much sooner, probably within the lifetime of the time Traveller, we'll assume he can't go back to get more stuff, the fuel processor was broken when he stole the Scout Ship with time drive, and also it can only return to the Solar System in 1103 Imperial and he might be caught and arrested for stealing the time machine scout ship.

The time drive replaced the ordinary jump drive and it has no capability to jump out of system, and it can only jump to 113 AD from 1103 Imperial, and time passes at the same rate at both ends of the wormhole within the time drive, it is a very limited time drive, it can take him there and it can take him back, the fuel requirements are the same as for a 2 parsec jump, he can't pick the date and time he arrives at, that is already preset and he can't change it. That said, the time Traveller can travel anywhere in the Solar System, he has enough fuel for 4 weeks of power plant operation, and the maneuver drive works fine, he can go to the Moon, pick up a few rocks and present them to the Emperor if he wants, he can also travel swiftly to anywhere on the globe. The fuel Processor if repaired can extract hydrogen from sea water, the collection and storage of hydrogen gas and its liquification is pretty high tech for the Romans, so it will be a while before they can do that.

I think I will be nice and rule that the power plant can run on water, it simple expels the oxygen after fusing the hydrogen to helium, storing hydrogen as water requires using the jump fuel tanks to store the water, and allows for travel around the Solar System, but at some point the ship will need maintenance and you don't want it to break downs when you are off Earth, as there will be no one to rescue you. The time traveller might want to use the Scout ship as an air plane and keep a parachute handy if he needs to jump out midflight.

 

[Condottiere]

1. Anagathics - worth more than their weight in gold.

2. Promise extended life.

3. Corrupt the power brokers and social influencers.

4. Geological maps showing mineral deposits.

5. Train and create a generation of Tech priests.

6. Bribe the Legions.

7. Become God Emperor, but go for princeps senatus and pontifex maximus.

 

[McPerth]

I guess his first probel would be not to die form the many illnesses he's not imunized against (having been erradicated long before his birth).

Smallpox, polio, measles, chickenpox... A lof those were rampant in Roman Imperium, and I guess a uninmunized person just falling there will soon sucumb to any of them ,probably quite sooner than he could reach the Emeperor's (or any influential person) ear...

And before anyone says it, vaccine production would probably have been stopped centuries before he was born, and trying to have them would probably call for authorities attention (probably fearing a bioterrorist attack)

(HG Wells strikes again )

 

[Enoki]

Well they have two millenia, since there is no changes that will affect the Vilani until the Roman's build their first starships, assuming the Empire does not break apart or collapse before then, the early age of gunpowder was a time of revolution in the 18th and 19th centuries. Would Roman colonies throughout the New World be any different from other European colonies in our world?
The Roman's had slaves of course, what would happen once the Roman's tried to conquer Africa? The Roman's had a tradition of conquering people, and those who fought back and lost were enslaved. I think the Romans will not try to conquer everywhere, they will rely on client States or tribes, so I think the trans-Atlantic slave trade will look much the same only that there will be only one colonial power instead of several. 19th century technology is from 50 to 300 years away, gunpowder and muskets/rifles will be much sooner, probably within the lifetime of the time Traveller, we'll assume he can't go back to get more stuff, the fuel processor was broken when he stole the Scout Ship with time drive, and also it can only return to the Solar System in 1103 Imperial and he might be caught and arrested for stealing the time machine scout ship.

The time drive replaced the ordinary jump drive and it has no capability to jump out of system, and it can only jump to 113 AD from 1103 Imperial, and time passes at the same rate at both ends of the wormhole within the time drive, it is a very limited time drive, it can take him there and it can take him back, the fuel requirements are the same as for a 2 parsec jump, he can't pick the date and time he arrives at, that is already preset and he can't change it. That said, the time Traveller can travel anywhere in the Solar System, he has enough fuel for 4 weeks of power plant operation, and the maneuver drive works fine, he can go to the Moon, pick up a few rocks and present them to the Emperor if he wants, he can also travel swiftly to anywhere on the globe. The fuel Processor if repaired can extract hydrogen from sea water, the collection and storage of hydrogen gas and its liquification is pretty high tech for the Romans, so it will be a while before they can do that.

I think I will be nice and rule that the power plant can run on water, it simple expels the oxygen after fusing the hydrogen to helium, storing hydrogen as water requires using the jump fuel tanks to store the water, and allows for travel around the Solar System, but at some point the ship will need maintenance and you don't want it to break downs when you are off Earth, as there will be no one to rescue you. The time traveller might want to use the Scout ship as an air plane and keep a parachute handy if he needs to jump out midflight.

Better weapons won't be the driving force behind what you propose. For example you mention rifles and muskets using black powder. These will require better metals and a means to produce those metals in quantity. To make accurate gun barrels requires the invention of the lathe with a means to make it precise enough in rotation and motion to make the barrel to the required tolerances. Rifling adds another tolerance requirement.
Just turning out the raw barrels requires introducing a method of forming tubing and likely a welding process to make them. The alternative is a much slower drill from solid stock method but that requires accurate lathes and specialized drilling equipment for that length of bore. Again, you have to invent all of this and get it into production.
If you want to use musket caps rather than a matchlock, flintlock, etc., that requires chemistry to make a primer explosive like mercury fulminate.
Turning out wooden stocks other than by handcraft requires invention of a pantograph or the like along with a wood milling machine.
These machines would require water or steam power so you need a water wheel (or turbine preferably) or boiler and steam engine.
Milling and making gunpowder requires chemistry too. Making the potassium nitrate other than by reduction of urine or manure requires it.

This is just one small example of how jumping forward with one technology requires a whole bunch of other technological innovations to make it happen other than in tiny quantity.

Or, the Romans know how to make glass in small quantity and pieces. Teaching them how to make float glass using a lead or tin bath and increasing production so you can make pieces say 12" on a side for windows changes building construction considerably. Showing them how to make leaded glass is another requirement. Then coloring it and making optical quality glass is necessary.
That will allow making a high quality telescope and other optics even if the lenses are handmade for the time being.

You'd have to introduce a new number system as Roman numerals won't work for complex math. This is necessary as you have to introduce some consistent system of weights and measures along with calibrated tooling to make those measurements.
These would be necessary for interchangeable parts as well as for simply making whatever accurately--including the previously mentioned musket / rifle.

This is why it doesn't happen in just a few decades. Each technology rides on many others. Pushing each out, then getting society to adopt them, then getting them in widespread use will take time, lots of time.