vector movement - SS Graf Spee vs INS Ajax at Montevideo
- Thread starter flykiller
- Start date
continuing existing courses results in the ajax catching graf spee.
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">SS Graf Spee vs INS Ajax at Montevideo
SS Graf Spee - M1, disabled at 1 hit
INS Ajax - M6, weapons' range 3LS
Graf Spee Ajax
location vector vector d location vector vector d
turn x y xv yv xd yd Ajax x y xv yv xd yd GS
001 199 199 000 000 00 01 4.4 199 66 000 000 -05 03 4.4
002 199 199 000 001 01 00 4.5 197 67 -005 003 -06 00 4.5
003 199 200 001 001 00 01 4.3 189 70 -011 003 -06 00 4.3
004 200 201 001 002 00 01 4.3 175 73 -017 003 -05 02 4.3
005 201 203 001 003 01 00 4.5 156 77 -022 005 01 05 4.5
006 202 206 002 003 00 01 4.7 134 84 -021 010 02 05 4.7
007 204 209 002 004 00 01 4.8 114 96 -019 015 02 05 4.8
008 206 213 002 005 01 00 5.0 96 113 -017 020 05 03 5.0
009 208 218 003 005 00 01 5.1 81 134 -012 023 05 03 5.1
010 211 223 003 006 01 00 5.1 71 158 -007 026 05 03 5.1
011 214 229 004 006 00 01 5.1 66 185 -002 029 05 03 5.1
012 218 235 004 007 01 00 5.1 66 215 003 032 05 00 5.1
013 222 242 005 007 00 -01 5.0 71 247 008 032 03 -05 5.0
014 227 249 005 006 01 00 5.0 80 277 011 027 03 -05 5.0
015 232 255 006 006 00 -01 4.9 92 302 014 022 03 -05 4.9
016 238 261 006 005 01 00 4.8 107 322 017 017 03 -05 4.8
017 244 266 007 005 00 -01 4.6 125 337 020 012 03 -05 4.6
018 251 271 007 004 01 00 4.3 146 347 023 007 03 -05 4.3
019 258 275 008 004 00 -01 3.9 170 352 026 002 03 -05 3.9
020 266 279 008 003 01 00 3.3 197 352 029 -003 03 -05 3.3
021 274 282 009 003 00 -01 2.7 227 347 032 -008 -05 -03 2.7
022 283 285 009 002 01 00 2.0 257 338 027 -011 -05 00 2.0
023 292 287 010 002 1.4 282 327 022 -011 1.4
</pre>[/QUOTE]
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">SS Graf Spee vs INS Ajax at Montevideo
SS Graf Spee - M1, disabled at 1 hit
INS Ajax - M6, weapons' range 3LS
Graf Spee Ajax
location vector vector d location vector vector d
turn x y xv yv xd yd Ajax x y xv yv xd yd GS
001 199 199 000 000 00 01 4.4 199 66 000 000 -05 03 4.4
002 199 199 000 001 01 00 4.5 197 67 -005 003 -06 00 4.5
003 199 200 001 001 00 01 4.3 189 70 -011 003 -06 00 4.3
004 200 201 001 002 00 01 4.3 175 73 -017 003 -05 02 4.3
005 201 203 001 003 01 00 4.5 156 77 -022 005 01 05 4.5
006 202 206 002 003 00 01 4.7 134 84 -021 010 02 05 4.7
007 204 209 002 004 00 01 4.8 114 96 -019 015 02 05 4.8
008 206 213 002 005 01 00 5.0 96 113 -017 020 05 03 5.0
009 208 218 003 005 00 01 5.1 81 134 -012 023 05 03 5.1
010 211 223 003 006 01 00 5.1 71 158 -007 026 05 03 5.1
011 214 229 004 006 00 01 5.1 66 185 -002 029 05 03 5.1
012 218 235 004 007 01 00 5.1 66 215 003 032 05 00 5.1
013 222 242 005 007 00 -01 5.0 71 247 008 032 03 -05 5.0
014 227 249 005 006 01 00 5.0 80 277 011 027 03 -05 5.0
015 232 255 006 006 00 -01 4.9 92 302 014 022 03 -05 4.9
016 238 261 006 005 01 00 4.8 107 322 017 017 03 -05 4.8
017 244 266 007 005 00 -01 4.6 125 337 020 012 03 -05 4.6
018 251 271 007 004 01 00 4.3 146 347 023 007 03 -05 4.3
019 258 275 008 004 00 -01 3.9 170 352 026 002 03 -05 3.9
020 266 279 008 003 01 00 3.3 197 352 029 -003 03 -05 3.3
021 274 282 009 003 00 -01 2.7 227 347 032 -008 -05 -03 2.7
022 283 285 009 002 01 00 2.0 257 338 027 -011 -05 00 2.0
023 292 287 010 002 1.4 282 327 022 -011 1.4
</pre>[/QUOTE]
Congrats Ajax,
How do you think it would have turned out if the Spee had turned hard to starboard instead, when she went to port. Try and turn inside of the Ajax and be out to the 100D before Ajax got turned around and accelerating again.
I was trying to do it by eyeball and thought it was feasible.
How do you think it would have turned out if the Spee had turned hard to starboard instead, when she went to port. Try and turn inside of the Ajax and be out to the 100D before Ajax got turned around and accelerating again.
I was trying to do it by eyeball and thought it was feasible.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Interesting little exercise, my thanks to both Captains for the diversion. I should have looked at it sooner 
May I offer a tactic to the Graf Spee for the sequel? Either publicly here (it'll be pretty obvious once committed but may require some small surprise factor) or by PM to the Captain. I'm not sure it'll work any better but it may be enough of an edge to just escape.
EDIT: Actually, on a moments thought, given the conditions imposed on the Ajax, I'm pretty confident it can be pulled off.
EDIT 2: Make that a certain escape, and no need for surprise either
I'd play it out myself but things are busy busy.
May I offer a tactic to the Graf Spee for the sequel? Either publicly here (it'll be pretty obvious once committed but may require some small surprise factor) or by PM to the Captain. I'm not sure it'll work any better but it may be enough of an edge to just escape.
EDIT: Actually, on a moments thought, given the conditions imposed on the Ajax, I'm pretty confident it can be pulled off.
EDIT 2: Make that a certain escape, and no need for surprise either
I'd play it out myself but things are busy busy.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
OK, not to spoil the fun, but I think you'll need to set up a new set of conditions once I explain it. Unless I'm missing something...
The trick is, or seemed to me, pretty obvious but I may have had a muse whispering in my ear or some half remembered sci-fi scene.
Step 1 - The Graf Spee must first make directly for the Ajax, where ever on the 100d line it is sitting. Thrust just under half way there and decelerate to come to a stop inside the 100d line. An optional thumbing of the nose by the Solomani Captain is appropriate here.
Step 2 - The Graf Spee thrusts back to Montevideo and the Ajax must commit to flying one side of the 100d circle or the other. Once the Ajax is committed we move to...
Step 3 - The Graf Spee swings one way or the other, opposite to the side chosen by the Ajax, around Montevideo and makes for 100d and jump.
I'm not sure but I think the Graf Spee may even be able to use the outbound vector to decelerate and achieve local relative zero-v for the Jump out of system without the Ajax being able to get in range.
I'm pretty darn sure that they can easily make 100d before the Ajax comes to weapons range if they keep accelerating.
I await the calculations to prove or fail my tactic
The trick is, or seemed to me, pretty obvious but I may have had a muse whispering in my ear or some half remembered sci-fi scene.
Step 1 - The Graf Spee must first make directly for the Ajax, where ever on the 100d line it is sitting. Thrust just under half way there and decelerate to come to a stop inside the 100d line. An optional thumbing of the nose by the Solomani Captain is appropriate here.
Step 2 - The Graf Spee thrusts back to Montevideo and the Ajax must commit to flying one side of the 100d circle or the other. Once the Ajax is committed we move to...
Step 3 - The Graf Spee swings one way or the other, opposite to the side chosen by the Ajax, around Montevideo and makes for 100d and jump.
I'm not sure but I think the Graf Spee may even be able to use the outbound vector to decelerate and achieve local relative zero-v for the Jump out of system without the Ajax being able to get in range.
I'm pretty darn sure that they can easily make 100d before the Ajax comes to weapons range if they keep accelerating.
I await the calculations to prove or fail my tactic
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Something as simple as another Imperial ship (half way around the 100D line) will probably wreck this tactic, at least in a 2D plot. A 3D plot may need more than one more Imperial Ship to box in the Gref Spee, or a more involved cat and mouse run around by the Graf Spee to escape multiple ships. But I haven't really thought that far ahead.
fartrader's tactic would work, but imtu I'd disallow it - can't have ships passing by an inhabited world at 1000 miles/sec.
in any case it isn't necessary. as graf spee begins to move the ajax is forced to move to intercept, and is forced to choose which arc of the 100d to transit. graf spee simply then vectors towards the opposite arc. this course is shown below, compared with the ajax's course in the previous game, up to turn 21 (if I recall correctly).
the ajax may of course attempt a more efficient course around the 100d, but I don't think that that will put it much closer to graf spee.
in any case it isn't necessary. as graf spee begins to move the ajax is forced to move to intercept, and is forced to choose which arc of the 100d to transit. graf spee simply then vectors towards the opposite arc. this course is shown below, compared with the ajax's course in the previous game, up to turn 21 (if I recall correctly).
the ajax may of course attempt a more efficient course around the 100d, but I don't think that that will put it much closer to graf spee.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Well when I said pass by Montevideo I wasn't clear enough. There's no need to come anywhere near it. In fact like the plot you show the Graf Spee can make it's swing much earlier and be well wide of the planet.
how 'bout this.
to escape, graf spee must transit 1 radian at 1G. the ajax has 6G, but upon examining its vector changes in the last game one notes that in transiting the 100d arc it never exceeds an average of 4G. furthermore to make this transit the ajax may not accumulate vector but must constantly alter it - meanwhile graf spee may accumulate vector without limit.
thus, if the ajax must transit more than 4 radians to bridge the horizon to graf spee, then graf spee escapes.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Yeah, I was thinking with a tighter plot the Ajax could cut off any plot the Graf Spee made from Montevideo.
Eyeballing the latest Graf Spee plot I think a tight plot by the Ajax could just catch the Sollies. But all it would take is for the Graf Spee to add a little more turn to evade. Looks like no special tactics are needed, just a spiral evasion
The Oz
SOC-14 1K
I wonder how well Ajax could reverse course and catch Graf Spee, assuming Graf Spee waits until Ajax commits to one side of the 100D limit and then goes for the other at full thrust.
Ajax would end up spending a couple of turns just going to-and-fro but I think her acceleration advantage is just too great to overcome.
But I'm not sure.
Ajax would end up spending a couple of turns just going to-and-fro but I think her acceleration advantage is just too great to overcome.
But I'm not sure.
spent about an hour tightening up the ajax's course. this is about the best I can do using cartesian coordinates - a tip-to-tail system might make it a bit tighter - but as you can see graf spee clearly gets away even then at turn 20-21.
one possibility that seems worth investigating is that if the ajax has longer-ranged weapons, would it then be able to target graf spee if instead of following the 100d during turns 18-21 it rather pulls away from the 100d to gain more tangent angle and thus brooch the horizon. I'll look into that later.
one possibility that seems worth investigating is that if the ajax has longer-ranged weapons, would it then be able to target graf spee if instead of following the 100d during turns 18-21 it rather pulls away from the 100d to gain more tangent angle and thus brooch the horizon. I'll look into that later.
I thought of this. if the ajax reverses course then graf spee simply does the same - and graf spee can reverse its course change relatively just as fast as can the ajax. meanwhile for each turn the ajax spends altering its course graf spee drifts closer to the opposite side of the 100d limit. we could play it out if you like.
Fly,
Why does INS Ajax start the scenario at full stop?
If she had maintained a course circling Montevideo's 100D limit, she would not have had to create a course to intercept SS Graf Spee in the first place. All she would have had to do was modify her existing course to create the necessary intercept, an intercept that would work regardless of Spee's escape course.
Having Ajax begin from a standing start handicaps the vessel too greatly. I'm sure the various Imperial naval academies teach this fact.
Have fun,
Bill
Why does INS Ajax start the scenario at full stop?
If she had maintained a course circling Montevideo's 100D limit, she would not have had to create a course to intercept SS Graf Spee in the first place. All she would have had to do was modify her existing course to create the necessary intercept, an intercept that would work regardless of Spee's escape course.
Having Ajax begin from a standing start handicaps the vessel too greatly. I'm sure the various Imperial naval academies teach this fact.
Have fun,
Bill
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
I wondered about that too Bill, but wouldn't that allow the Graf Spee to simply start opposite the Ajax's chosen cycle and nullify any advantage it would have created? Effectively running from Ajax's tail and/or turning inside it's turn?
hm. a naval "drop anchor" presumption on my part, I guess. you're right, traveller starships can loiter at continuous full thrust, and in this situation they might.
not sure it would make a difference though. graf spee could simply rotate its intial egress vector to compensate for any existing vector arc held by the ajax. have to play it out to see.
unfortunately I deleted the tightened vector table for the ajax earlier. I'll have to recreate it for the full orbit, then insert graf spee's best egress course and see if it can get away before the ajax rounds the 100d horizon.
Dan,
The exact speed(1) Ajax circles Montevideo at will depend on factors like the size of the planet's 100D limit, her gee rating, and Spee's gee rating. Push any of those factors to an extreme and a one-ship blockade will fail because you can't cheat the laws of physics.
In this case, if Spee tries 'run' inside Ajax's tail or 'turn' inside her turning circle, Ajax's high gee advantage can still generate the intercept. Again, whether Ajax 'turns back' to intercept or 'speeds up' to intercept will depend on the math.
With 6 gees in hand, Strephon's Boys can either burn a fast, hot, tight course around Montevideo or double back on their original course real quick.
Have fun,
Bill
1 - I wrote speed because Ajax's vector is constantly changing as she circles Montevideo.
P.S. Sensor spoofing would play a great role in this sort of incident, but we're assuming perfect sensors on both sides.
