vector movement - SS Graf Spee vs INS Ajax at Montevideo

[flykiller]

With 6 gees in hand, Strephon's Boys can either burn a fast, hot, tight course around Montevideo or double back on their original course real quick.

actually, there's a definite speed limit for the ajax as it follows the 100d arc. in fact if it follows the 100d arc 4 radians graf spee's vector is as large as ajax's.

below is what happens if during the last four turns ajax tangents away from the 100d arc and simply accelerates straight out attempting to bridge the horizon to graf spee. here it can finally bring its high G rating to bear, and it succeeds in getting a clear line-of-sight to graf spee. all it requires now is the weapons' range to hit it.

 

[far-trader]

So then are we back to my "toe the line" tactic? Is it not still viable against your active blockade navigation Bill?

 

[BillDowns]

May I try it?

If you agree, duplicate Oz's movement up to turn 8. Then have Graf Spee come to vector (01,-01) for 3 turns.

 

[Scott Martin]

Historically misinformation caused the skipper of the Graff Spee to believe that there were three cruisers waiting (holding the blockade)

Where's the "scuttle as a result of misinformation" scenario option here?

Scott Martin

 

[flykiller]

May I try it?

sure, I'll set it up tonight.

If you agree, duplicate Oz's movement up to turn 8. Then have Graf Spee come to vector (01,-01) for 3 turns.

graf spee is only M1 so it will take 2 turns for each (xd,yd)(01,-01). I'll do that, and updates or alterations are no problem if you want to change something.

 

[Scott Martin]

On a different tangent, were I the "blockading" vessel I sure wouldn't park on the 100D limit: back off to ~150D and you have a lot more options as the maneuver "exclusion" cone shrinks drastically. The three "limit" options for the "blockaded" ship are:
1) Accellerate directly away from the blockader
2) Accellerate at 90 degrees to the blockader
3) Accellerate directly towards the blockader (generally a poor choice)

with a "setback" away from the 100D limit it's trivial to shape a course tangential to the 100D limit, pass by the 100D zone and then decellerate and intercept.

Sitting stationary on the 100D limit is just foolish.

Scott Martin

 

[far-trader]

I think that's a good tactic Scott. It might even defeat my own (which is not one of the three you mentioned for the Graf Spee ) and in ways similar to your own. I'd like to see that played out, and again wish I had the time to do it and thank flykiller for playing through these scenarios.

 

[BillDowns]

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />May I try it?

sure, I'll set it up tonight.

If you agree, duplicate Oz's movement up to turn 8. Then have Graf Spee come to vector (01,-01) for 3 turns.

graf spee is only M1 so it will take 2 turns for each (xd,yd)(01,-01). I'll do that, and updates or alterations are no problem if you want to change something. </font>[/QUOTE]Cool. I'll check back.

Don't know that I will do any better, but it will be fun.

 

[Hal]

Hi Guys

Just a dumb question if I might? Assuming a one ship blockade situation, and assuming that the planet is moving along at its plodding orbit that nature decreed it should follow since the star heated up - wouldn't there be a problem of sorts with sensor shadow? If this is the case, the problem begins as a theoretical question of "Which way is the Graf going to try and escape?" doesn't it?

Just a thought...

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by far-trader:
So then are we back to my "toe the line" tactic? Is it not still viable against your active blockade navigation Bill?

Dan,

I didn't explain myself sufficiently.

Ajax can move along the edge of Montevideo's 100D limit in the equivalent of a 'powered' orbit. A powered orbit is an orbit that moves faster than the normal orbital period of an object at that height. The 'power' is used primarily to keep the object on course around the body.

For example, a geosync orbit over Earth occurs at an altitude of ~35.6 kKm and the object in a geosync orbit moves at a speed equal to Earth's equatorial rotation. An object in a powered orbit at the geosync altitude could move faster than Earth's equatorial rotation by using it's thrust to maintain the orbital course.

In the case of Ajax, the warship could move along the 100D limit at a certain steady speed in a type of powered orbit. As Fly correctly pointed out, there is an upper limit to that speed. That limit is imposed by the size of the 100D limit; how much the course has to 'bend', and the thrust the warship has to work with; how easily it can 'bend' the course. The smaller the thrust available, the lower the speed because the warship can't 'bend' its course as easily. The smaller the 100 limit the lower the speed because the warships has to bend it's course more often.

With 6 gees on hand, Ajax can 'orbit' Montevideo's 100d limit as well as any vessel in the OTU. Just how fast Ajax should orbit Montevideo was worked out by IN tacticians and mathematicians millennia ago. Ajax knows her gee rating, knows her weapon ranges, knows Spee's gee rating, and knows the size of Montevideo's 100D limit. All those variables are plugged into the age-old formula and the results are that either:

- Ajax can 'power orbit' along the 100D limit within a certain range of speeds and always generate a weapons intercept.

or:

- Ajax cannot blockade Spee alone.

As Scott points out, misinformation and spoofing play a great role in this problem. Both, however, are beyond the scope of our rules.


Have fun,
Bill

P.S. We should also look at Ajax's weapon ranges. When HG2 ranges are translated into Mayday hexes and LBB:2 inches, OTU warships can easily sit outside[/i] Earth's 100D limit and hit vessels in Earth orbit.

 

[flykiller]

... but it will be fun.

pretty much the whole point.

here's the start of turn 008. is this what you mean?

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">SS Graf Spee vs INS Ajax at Montevideo

SS Graf Spee - M1, disabled at 1 hit
INS Ajax - M6, weapons' range 3LS

Graf Spee Ajax
location vector vector d location vector vector d
turn x y xv yv xd yd Ajax x y xv yv xd yd GS
001 199 199 000 000 00 01 4.4 199 66 000 000 -05 03 4.4
002 199 199 000 001 01 00 4.5 197 67 -005 003 -06 00 4.5
003 199 200 001 001 00 01 4.3 189 70 -011 003 -06 00 4.3
004 200 201 001 002 00 01 4.3 175 73 -017 003 -05 02 4.3
005 201 203 001 003 01 00 4.5 156 77 -022 005 01 05 4.5
006 202 206 002 003 00 01 4.7 134 84 -021 010 02 05 4.7
007 204 209 002 004 00 01 4.8 114 96 -019 015 02 05 4.8
008 206 213 002 005 -- -- 5.0 96 113 -017 020 -- -- 5.0

</pre>[/QUOTE]

 

[flykiller]

... wouldn't there be a problem of sorts with sensor shadow?

(smile) yep. least, for a while. one more reason for the blockade ship to orbit - in an irregular manner.

... misinformation and spoofing play a great role in this problem. Both, however, are beyond the scope of our rules.

for now. I do look forward to discussing weapons rules, and then sensor rules, and seeing how they play out in a vector environment.

 

[flykiller]

with a "setback" away from the 100D limit it's trivial to shape a course tangential to the 100D limit, pass by the 100D zone and then decellerate and intercept.

uh huh. so let's do it and see.

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">SS Graf Spee vs INS Ajax at Montevideo, 150d

SS Graf Spee - M1, disabled at 1 hit
INS Ajax - M6, weapons' range 3LS

Graf Spee Ajax
location vector vector d location vector vector d
turn x y xv yv xd yd Ajax x y xv yv xd yd GS
001 199 349 000 000 -- -- 6.7 199 149 --- --- -- -- 6.7

</pre>[/QUOTE]I'll take graf spee, you take the ajax. I've left the initial vectors for the ajax blank, you may specify any values for them you wish including (xvi,yvi)(000,000). if you list one or more (xd,yd) for the ajax, we'll begin.

 

[BillDowns]

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />... but it will be fun.

pretty much the whole point.

here's the start of turn 008. is this what you mean?
</font>[/QUOTE]Yep. Helmsman, come to Heading 060 @ 1G, if you please.

Uh, which way is 000

 

[flykiller]

Helmsman, come to Heading 060 @ 1G, if you please.

Uh, which way is 000

hadn't specified. movement here is more (x,y) rather than by degrees, but let's say 000 is straight up and that the direction of rotation is clockwise (unless someone can say why it should be something else). -x is left, x is right, -y is up, y is down. so, you want an (xv,yv) of (01,-02)?

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Of course, Captain Langsdorff could always jump once he passes 10 diameters...

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
Of course, Captain Langsdorff could always jump once he passes 10 diameters...

Of course

And I'd have it as a backup if intercept is confirmed. But I figured for the sake of the scenario that there was some reason a risky jump was unacceptable...



"Engineering. Can we make a jump within 100d?"

"Negative Cap, the damage we took in the last encounter has nearly crippled the jump drive. If we subject it to the extra stress of a jump inside 100d it'll tear itself apart, if we're lucky. If we're unlucky it'll turn us inside out first."

 

[BillDowns]

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Helmsman, come to Heading 060 @ 1G, if you please.

Uh, which way is 000

hadn't specified. movement here is more (x,y) rather than by degrees, but let's say 000 is straight up and that the direction of rotation is clockwise (unless someone can say why it should be something else). -x is left, x is right, -y is up, y is down. so, you want an (xv,yv) of (01,-02)? </font>[/QUOTE]Oh, my mistake. That should be 045 @1G. xv,yv(01,-01).

 

[flykiller]

advanced the positions of graf spee and the ajax 6 turns.

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">SS Graf Spee vs INS Ajax at Montevideo

SS Graf Spee - M1, disabled at 1 hit
INS Ajax - M6, weapons' range 3LS

Graf Spee Ajax
location vector vector d location vector vector d
turn x y xv yv xd yd Ajax x y xv yv xd yd GS
001 199 199 000 000 00 01 4.4 199 66 000 000 -05 03 4.4
002 199 199 000 001 01 00 4.5 197 67 -005 003 -06 00 4.5
003 199 200 001 001 00 01 4.3 189 70 -011 003 -06 00 4.3
004 200 201 001 002 00 01 4.3 175 73 -017 003 -05 02 4.3
005 201 203 001 003 01 00 4.5 156 77 -022 005 01 05 4.5
006 202 206 002 003 00 01 4.7 134 84 -021 010 02 05 4.7
007 204 209 002 004 00 01 4.8 114 96 -019 015 02 05 4.8
008 206 213 002 005 01 00 5.0 96 113 -017 020 03 05 5.0
009 208 218 003 005 00 -01 5.1 80 135 -014 025 05 03 5.1
010 211 223 003 004 01 00 5.2 68 161 -009 028 06 00 5.2
011 214 227 004 004 00 -01 5.2 62 189 -003 028 06 00 5.2
012 218 231 004 003 01 00 5.2 62 217 003 028 06 00 5.2
013 222 234 005 003 00 -01 5.1 68 245 009 028 04 -04 5.1
014 227 237 005 002 -- -- 5.1 79 271 013 024 5.1

</pre>[/QUOTE]not looking good for graf spee, distance to the ajax is already beginning to drop.

 

[BillDowns]

Please come to 000 @ 1G. 3 turns.