Vent-Rant MegaTraveller what I hate about it.

[mike wightman]

Traveller in my opinion has never really described high TL cultures very well, part of that is that the settings are pretty much "us but with jump drive and gravitics" or "us with stutterwarp."

One thing I have learned during my almost sixty years on Earth - there is no "us".

"We" think that everyone thinks the same as "us", and if they don't then all we need to do is explain our cultural and legal ways of doing things, our mutual respect and tolerance, and our live and let live approach will change them into "us".

The latest generation that has grown up with anti-social media are different to "us", the myriad cultures of the Earth that have their own cultural beliefs are different to "us".

The Third Imperium could be set at TL10 or 11, how is it really any different to "now".
TL9 is gravitics and jump
TL10 is expansion and discovery
TL11 is empire

What is the cultural shift 11->12, 12->13, 13->14...

Imagine the Third Imperium history with "what if".

What if Grandfather never visited Earth.

Earth discovers jump drive and gravitics during the later decades of the twenty first century.

How is TL9 different to TL10?

For a few hundred years there is exploration, colonisation and eventually, after two more TLs jump 2 is discovered.

Big wow, how does TL11 and jump 2 change the human civilisation?

The TL15 Imperium is set in the fifty seventh century, but technologically the gulf is greater than today versus the hunter gatherers that existed for tens of thousands of years before the last ice age. They would not be "us" anymore than "we" have the same cultural paradigm of the builders of Göbekli Tepe.

 

[Murph]

What I had was a "wormhole" that lead to this sector, and then collapsed due to a ship ramming the gate infrastructure. So tech levels are pretty uniform 10-12 with a very limited number of TL 12 worlds. I do a twice weekly newsletter for the guys detailing the sector, its daily life, and any chaos that is occurring like the civil war on New Caledonia, and other things dealing with organized crime,

But getting back to the Megatraveller, I liked some of the character gen, task resolution, loathed the universe change and the gearheading for designing ships. Ships, for us were like a car, a method to get from place to place. We did not need to know how many kiloliters the toilet was, or things like that.

The whole Empress Wave, destroy the universe so we can play Aftermath/Morrow Project was really bad IMHO. You could have a great, and I mean great campaign in the Far Frontiers, or Reavers Deep sectors they were wonderful.

 

[mike wightman]

TNE was nothing like Aftermath or Morrow Project - I played both many times and they are very different in outlook. The suggested TNE campaigns were:
Regency - typical Spinward Marches adventures if that is your desire
Reformation Coalition - a solidly TL12 society backed by the Hivers setting off on a mission of exploration and recontact, they soon discovered pocket empires more advanced than themselves, a merchant trading Guild, and lots of worlds that had suffered a bit.

I found TNE to be a game of a bright future after the horror of Hard Times.

 

[whartung]

Big wow, how does TL11 and jump 2 change the human civilisation?

It brings interstellar society "just" that much "closer" together. 2 parsec jumps now take 1 week instead of two.

If an "empire" is defined by speed of communication, it expands that empire.

On a planetary basis, and the individual level, that may not be much. They may barely notice any impact. Some trade faster.

But from a governance point of view, it can be a big deal if humanity is willing to branch out and truly "embrace the stars".

 

[mike wightman]

I don't see how that has a cultural impact.

From the end of the Napoleonic wars until The Great War the British Empire didn't change much culturally, despite travel times to the outposts of Empire being reduced substantially.

 

[atpollard]

Big wow, how does TL11 and jump 2 change the human civilisation?

Here is the "official" MT answer on what changes from TL 10 to TL 11. [I will not argue what impact any of this might have on society since I prefer a different paradigm].

Tech Level 11:

Combat armor appears. Essentially an armored vacc suit, combat armor can be pressurized for use in a vacuum. or hostile environment.

Large Gauss guns appear as infantry support weapons. All military vehicles are now grav-propelled and possess a pronounced free-flight capability; effectively merging with military aircraft. Meson guns are introduced as a non- mobile, deep-mounted planetary defense weapon and as a space vessel weapon. Robotic missiles appear as an alternative to artillery.

Prior to this tech level, computers are strictly deterministic; that is, given a certain set of data as input, a computer will always produce the same output. Synaptic processing, an attempt to model computer operation after sophontic brains, is found to introduce a measure of nondeterminism into the computer CPU. A purely synaptic computer is not functional at all, because of the unreliability caused by the overloaded synaptic circuits. A large percentage of traditional deterministic processors can be used to reduce the number of false matches picked up by the synaptic circuit.

The total personal datalink is introduced, allowing one individual to communicate with any other individual anywhere on a world, any time, using any desired mode of communication’ text, voice, or video in any combination The personal datalink (often implemented using a hand computer) device allows the user to record, send, receive, and store message data in any form. Holovideo, however, is still beyond the realm of the personal datalink.

Structures whose design relies upon a gravitic supplement appear. These structures would collapse without the permanent aid of their gravitic support

True nerve refusion techniques appear, allowing major neural damage (such as a severed spinal cord) to be surgically repaired Artificial eyes are developed, thus providing a practical means for those who cannot see to regain their sight

Gravitic vehicles merge with aircraft. Ground transport is still used where atmospheric conditions are a problem.

Jump2 drive is invented. Research into the problems of gravitic drives leads to the introduction of thruster technology. Thruster technology, a combined spinoff of gravitic and damper technology, uses a strong molecular repelling force to produce reactionless thrusters which push against large plates mounted on the space vessel Thrusters do not require the presence of a large gravity field to operate effectively, but instead are highly localized with virtually none of the projection ability of gravitics.

Fusion power plant minimum size drops to 1000 liters.

 

[Daidoji Dave]

Traveller in my opinion has never really described high TL cultures very well, part of that is that the settings are pretty much "us but with jump drive and gravitics" or "us with stutterwarp."

One thing I have learned during my almost sixty years on Earth - there is no "us".

"We" think that everyone thinks the same as "us", and if they don't then all we need to do is explain our cultural and legal ways of doing things, our mutual respect and tolerance, and our live and let live approach will change them into "us".

....

I wish more GMs and published authors took a cue from EC Tubbs' Dumarest books. Not the callouts like low passage, but the fact that every single world visited is weird. Some strange custom or law or freak weather. Arguably it's a Planet of the Week (/novel) format, but that still beats 21st Century IN SPACE for me.

Or, Bujold's Vorkosigan universe. Less strange and pulpy than Dumarest, but still very different planetary societies.

A heresy - I feel the 3I, while itself very gameable, crowds out creativity in world building somewhat. It's almost the Kingdoms of Kalamar of science fiction, for those few who know the latter - gameable (and in fact I like it), but deliberately vanilla.

What I hate about MegaTraveller:
...
5) Virus- *runs screaming in disgust*!

Having missed it at the time, and still lacking most of the primary sources, I do not understand this very common viewpoint in the slightest. At this remove it sounds like a very Saberhagenish, Berserker kind of science fiction that would make for a great setting with a lot to do.

Was it just the execution? Or was Third Imperium already such the draw that deviating from that was the problem?

 

[mike wightman]

Yeh I have that list available too, some of the things that jump out at me:

"Prior to this tech level, computers are strictly deterministic; that is, given a certain set of data as input, a computer will always produce the same output. Synaptic processing, an attempt to model computer operation after sophontic brains, is found to introduce a measure of nondeterminism into the computer CPU. A purely synaptic computer is not functional at all, because of the unreliability caused by the overloaded synaptic circuits. A large percentage of traditional deterministic processors can be used to reduce the number of false matches picked up by the synaptic circuit."

This may jest be a cultural change. I had a conversation yesterday with Copilot where I asked how it and Cortana are different. I then asked if it would be possible to combine their functions. I then asked it how it felt about being merged. Try it.

The above passage from the referee's Companion Technology chapter is interesting because it doesn't take into account what we now do to train AIs and neural nets. Let's grant the benefit of the doubt and say that synaptic processors are hardware configured neural nets that can make their own connections as they learn. All that is then needed are huge learning centres to produce the fianlised neural networks. You then start to get intelligent machines. I will leave it to others to debate self awareness, sentience and quantum observer status.

But this could be a cultural shift.

"The total personal datalink is introduced, allowing one individual to communicate with any other individual anywhere on a world, any time, using any desired mode of communication’ text, voice, or video in any combination The personal datalink (often implemented using a hand computer) device allows the user to record, send, receive, and store message data in any form. Holovideo, however, is still beyond the realm of the personal datalink."

We have this now, it's called a smart phone.

"Research into the problems of gravitic drives leads to the introduction of thruster technology. Thruster technology, a combined spinoff of gravitic and damper technology, uses a strong molecular repelling force to produce reactionless thrusters which push against large plates mounted on the space vessel Thrusters do not require the presence of a large gravity field to operate effectively, but instead are highly localized with virtually none of the projection ability of gravitics." This one boiled my piss as soon as I read it all those years ago,
Damper technology is TL12, so the thruster at TL11 isn't even consistent with their own retconned handwavium technodunningkruger. How can you have a spin off from a technology that hasn't been disvovered until the next TL?

If I didn't mention this earlier then add it to the list.

Inconsistent technobabble based on a very spurious "I read and article in Scientific American" physics conjecture.

 

[casquilho]

A heresy - I feel the 3I, while itself very gameable, crowds out creativity in world building somewhat. It's almost the Kingdoms of Kalamar of science fiction, for those few who know the latter - gameable (and in fact I like it), but deliberately vanilla.

I do not think of it as heresy so much as an observation of where 3i has gone over time. When I first started playing Traveller using the LBB Box Set each system was different and we were encouraged to create, use our imaginations and creativity to make them feel different and special.

Over time, as the 3i was filled in there was a drive to lock each system and subsector and sector down in published "truths" and it pushed out the creative efforts of each GM. Now I know some fanboys will come and say "well nothing stopped you from doing it anyway" but that is unfair given the truth being passed down by the Gods of GDW. We caved and began to use what was sent out and stopped creating our own. I have seen games that have not created their own system or ship in decades. Thye just use the Official stuff.

Ok, I will go back to my rocker on the porch and sip my lemonade and shut up.

 

[atpollard]

We have this now, it's called a smart phone.

You are missing the point.
Did the smart phone have an impact on CULTURE?
THAT is the cultural impact that occurs at TL 11 in the OTU published before Smart Phones.

You are really just complaining about the failure of technology to keep pace with the game (where are our Jump Drives) or the failure of game designers to be prescient (they should have KNOWN what would happen over the next 40 years). That is different from "How is TL 11 different from TL 10?"

 

[aramis]

TNE was nothing like Aftermath or Morrow Project - I played both many times and they are very different in outlook.

My experiences with Aftermath and Morrow Project differ from yours.
Morrow, especially... the hopeless cause to restore the US after WW III.
Twilight 2000, however, was more neutral - survive and either settle or head for home.

The suggested TNE campaigns were:
Regency - typical Spinward Marches adventures if that is your desire

But they then also took out all the nobles in charge; a fundamental change. Making that promise of it being still classic a flat out lie.

Reformation Coalition - a solidly TL12 society backed by the Hivers setting off on a mission of exploration and recontact, they soon discovered pocket empires more advanced than themselves, a merchant trading Guild, and lots of worlds that had suffered a bit.

A setting that was not well presented, and the corebook highlighting the most abusive local governments.. basically reducing the needed population for psychotic dictatorships.

I found TNE to be a game of a bright future after the horror of Hard Times.

I found Hard Times very much optimistic: There will be a recovery; many have died, but you CAN make a difference, and prevent many more.
The Virus then comes along and basically kills or enslave. any non-shirtsleeve world.

Meanwhile, TNE run RAW in the areas around the RC, it was the same feel as ALIEN now has... that sense that the badness is out there, and eventually, it will get you!

I often think that TNE may have been part of the inspirations for nBSG.... the tone of the first three seasons felt awful close.

 

[mike wightman]

You are missing the point.
Did the smart phone have an impact on CULTURE?
THAT is the cultural impact that occurs at TL 11 in the OTU published before Smart Phones.

You are really just complaining about the failure of technology to keep pace with the game (where are our Jump Drives) or the failure of game designers to be prescient (they should have KNOWN what would happen over the next 40 years). That is different from "How is TL 11 different from TL 10?"

No, I am complaining that the TLs are boring lists that don't take into account what technological advancement does to cultures.

Oh, and that the baseline of TL7 should reflect today, not 1970; perhaps we could remove fusion power, man portable lasers, and air/rafts to TL9.

Also not that the technologies of the MT TL scale are different to CT, so there is precedence for changing them. They even changed the computer rules for MT...

Have you checked the MT TL of the flat panel screen you likely use?

 

[Rupert]

I wish more GMs and published authors took a cue from EC Tubbs' Dumarest books. Not the callouts like low passage, but the fact that every single world visited is weird. Some strange custom or law or freak weather. Arguably it's a Planet of the Week (/novel) format, but that still beats 21st Century IN SPACE for me.

Or, Bujold's Vorkosigan universe. Less strange and pulpy than Dumarest, but still very different planetary societies.

Or, Jack Vance's SF work, where the differences between cultures is huge and very important, and just about every world has their own (and often more than one).

 

[atpollard]

Have you checked the MT TL of the flat panel screen you likely use?

Not really. I am a CLASSIC TRAVELLER fan, so I just mine MT for things I can port back into STRIKER or BOOK 5.
I already posted somewhere a whole TOPIC dedicated to Traveller TLs and my "Group of three" progression, so HERE is not the place for that.

 

[Rupert]

No, I am complaining that the TLs are boring lists that don't take into account what technological advancement does to cultures.

Oh, and that the baseline of TL7 should reflect today, not 1970; perhaps we could remove fusion power, man portable lasers, and air/rafts to TL9.

By MT they had - contragravity is a TL9 technology in MT. MT also states that TL8 is about 1990, so there's no need for TL7 to reflect to today, because today is not TL7 - it's TL9 (TL9 being ~2010 according to MT).

 

[Spinward Flow]

Not really. I am a CLASSIC TRAVELLER fan, so I just mine MT for things I can port back into STRIKER or BOOK 5.

Ditto.

 

[mike wightman]

By MT they had - contragravity is a TL9 technology in MT. MT also states that TL8 is about 1990, so there's no need for TL7 to reflect to today, because today is not TL7 - it's TL9 (TL9 being ~2010 according to MT).

And yet still wrong. The main reason the TL to current earth year is pointless is the rate of progress since WW1.

Post WW1 physics gives us general relativity and quantum shenanigans. The microprocessor is a paradigm changing technology, with the cultural change being linked to the communication then social media brought about by mass adoption.

MT was allowed to update the CT TL table, we should be able to do the same with today's tech that belongs at the TL8 so many want us to be. Roll on fusion power (MT TL9)

MT TL8 stuff we can't do yet:

Personal Military Early Laser Carbine, Heavy Military Particle Accelerators, Environment Orbital Settlements, Medical Artificial Organs

and now stuff we can do today:

TL 9 computer Nonvolatile Memory, Vocal Input; TL10 computer Voice Transcription; TL9 comms Video Telephones, Flat Video Screens,
TL10 comms Voice Transcriber; TL11 comms Personal Datalinks; TL10 medical Antiviral Vaccinations,

Correct this little lot and you have a workable TL8.

Gravitics and fusion at TL9, then jump 1 at TL10.

 

[Rupert]

The whole section on vaccines in MT's Imperial Encyclopedia is just wrong. TL5 vaccines were not annual. Vaccines that work against viruses have been available ring from the beginning (and it's easier to vaccinate against viruses than bacterial diseases). Vaccines that 'prevent several similar diseases' have been available since the first vaccines, as that's got a lot more to do with how similar the diseases are than anything else, and most multi-diseases vaccines are actually several mixed into one dose - and that's a TL6-7 invention. It's just wrong, and useless for assessing Tech Level.

It also insists that antibiotics are injections (most aren't these days, and haven't been for decades).

 

[infojunky]

I think the biggest issue was the sense of betrayal from GDW for those of us who have been playing Traveller as in my case 1978. The New Era was even worse, since I had no desire to play "Aftermath/Morrow Project" in space. As I said before, rather than the utterly embarrassing "Empress Wave" etc, move the focus to another sector away from the main empires.

To be clear I really liked TNE in a lot of ways, often more than MT.

Mostly in the fact it reset the clock in a lot of ways, especially in term of the technical assumptions. In that it was centered around TL 10 to 12 in a small ship universe. And the inclusion of Machine Intelligences.

Setting wise I could take or leave. But that has been my take for Traveller's background since the begining.

 

[infojunky]

I do not think of it as heresy so much as an observation of where 3i has gone over time. When I first started playing Traveller using the LBB Box Set each system was different and we were encouraged to create, use our imaginations and creativity to make them feel different and special.

Heh, my 1st Traveller supplements were all the SF Novels sitting on my shelves.