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Wanted: New Ideas on the end of the world.

Originally posted by Sgt Biggles:
My best guess would have the US and England, supported by Poland, Spain as the main ‘NATO’ force with support elements from Australia, ...
I'm not sure that Australia would be involved in the European theatre. I think its forces would be elsewhere - probably somewhere in Asia.

It's true that Australian governments tend to be very strongly pro-US, but I'm not entirely sure that they would be keen to engage in serious warfare with serious opponents.

Australia was, of course, involved in both World Wars, and undoubtedly would be involved in a third, but in the first two cases it was because it was an integral part of the British Empire, which no longer exists. The ties to the US that have replaced it are weaker.

That would mean that Australian involvement would be more likely to be relatively token, and in areas other than the main fronts. Of course, if the Asian fronts blow up...

Alan
 
Hmmm....Good point.

You're probably right. Depending on where the central battles were focusing, and we have been leaning toward China, it would make sense they would be closer to home, or at least close to the Pacific theater.

Reguardless of where they are fighting, would it be logical they would throw in with the US, given the factors presented in the last few threads?
 
New scenario:

Starvation spawns military coup in North Korea. Kim assassination fails to kill him (only injured and really pissed) and civil war starts.

Anti-Kim forces are pushed north into China but not without first taking control of a solitary nuke.

Russian, U.S., and Chinese forces move to maintain borders.

China attempts to push Anti-Kim forces back across the border, into the waiting arms of Pro-Kim forces. In a last ditch effort, someone pops a nuke and Chinese forces are caught in the explosion.

In the confusion, Pro-Kim forces on the DMZ attack across the border and fire on U.S. forces in the Sea of Japan. Russian vessels are hit and sunk.

North Korean operatives in Japan, acting on contigency orders, detonate bombs at U.S. bases killing hundreds of Japanese nationals in the process.

Through in some terrorists allied with North Korea and what ensues is mass hysteria, retaliation, finger pointing, sabre rattling, and hostilities that could embroil the entire western pacific.
 
It depends on -how- isolated the US got.

Despite the official and popular non-support of the war in Iraq. Canada sent many troops to Afaghnistan so that US forces would be freed up. There were Canadian exchange officers in among the British forces in Iraq.

Less than statesmen like actions by officials on both sides of the border aside. Canada and the US are still friends and LIKELY to be on the same side of future disputes with other nations. So it really depends on your scenario. If you postulate a situation where the US hasn't alienated EVERYBODY then I think it's likely that the US's usuall allies will be onside Vs. the 'usual suspects?' but hey... anything can happen.

Maybe one of the future presidents get's infected with a bad case of 'Manifest Destiny' and decides Canadians WANT to become americans and run for the presidency. Who knows?

Internally, I'm not sure I agree with the Antares Administrator. There are serious secessionist elements within Quebec. Leading up to the last referedum on the issue there were apparant attempts to suborn pro-quebec members of our military and accusations of treason leveled. Stuff happens. With the right persons in power and the right degree of anarchy or at least Federal Powerlessness. I could envision a 'Republic of Quebec' or some similar entity.

Western Separatism is a little stranger. The further west you go. the further west the schism point is. In Northwestern Ontario they talk of Abandoning Planet Toronto and joining the west.

In Manitoba they talk of leaving Ontario and Quebec (who conspire to rule the country say western separatists) behind and joining Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia in a western seperatist movemnet. in Sask. the break off point is Sasketchewan in Alberta it's a alberta and British Columbia wavers between becoming it's own dominion of the British Commonwealth or the 51st state.

Newfoundland & Labrador didn't cease to be the Dominion of Newfoundland and become part of Canada until shortly after World War II. There are people alive today who remember an 'indpendant' Newfoundland. If either Nfld. or Quebeq separated I could foresee fighting over the border of Labrador. (it's a chunk of the mainland, bordering Quebec, that's considered part of the Province of Newfoundland & Labrador)

There are Centrifugal forces within Canada that would have -potential- to break it up if things came apart sufficiently.
 
Notwithstanding (I love that word
) the sanctity of the 5th in Poland, how locked down is the background for this version, and who'll make the final call on the focus for new material?

Paul Nemeth
AA
 
The background is framed out at this time. MJD has the final call on the project and is working the majority of the timelime. I dont know that he has delved into the nuts and bolts yet.

The overall outline for the source book is in the finishing stages and is just waiting for the division of work to be laid out. Once thats done the source book will take off.

The author will have great latitude over the majority of the book. Besides MJD, Hunter will have input and I believe Marc does to as he controls the rights to the titles involved.

So did I make that clear as mud?

While the events leading up to the start of the PC's involvement must present a logical course of world events it will really be pretty broad I'm guessing. The source book will be heavy in describing the existing conditions and campaign material. Perhaps an alternate setting or two will be included as well.

Thats what makes this thread interesting. Seeing what and where folks might like to start. And learning from those in other countries how their views could affect the setting. A referee from Canada should be able to feel as comfortable running a session of Twilight as one from the US.

It might not be possible but I would like to see the setting be versatile enough to run a German or Russian based campaign without it feeling like the group is playing the 'badguys'.

Ah-oh, I'm rambling again. Sorry.
 
Originally posted by Ran Targas:
Starvation spawns military coup in North Korea. Kim assassination fails to kill him (only injured and really pissed) and civil war starts.
While all the trouble is brewing in the Middle East and Europe, North Korea would more than likely take advantage of the situation.

Civil war in North Korea would be interesting. Kim wants to unite north and south, perhaps a civil war would be the catlyst needed. Whichever way the north went it would cause all kinds of problems.
 
Originally posted by Garf:
Less than statesmen like actions by officials on both sides of the border aside. Canada and the US are still friends and LIKELY to be on the same side of future disputes with other nations. So it really depends on your scenario.
Thanks Garf. That helps.
 
Originally posted by Sgt Biggles:
Reguardless of where they are fighting, would it be logical they would throw in with the US, given the factors presented in the last few threads?
I'm not sure that logic would have much to do with it.


Yes, Australia would throw in with the US, even if the majority of the population were opposed to getting involved.

Alan
 
Originally posted by Sgt Biggles:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Garf:
Less than statesmen like actions by officials on both sides of the border aside. Canada and the US are still friends and LIKELY to be on the same side of future disputes with other nations. So it really depends on your scenario.
Thanks Garf. That helps. </font>[/QUOTE]What I meant. What I hoped was clear. Is that your scenario for the end of the world would have to generate a very powerful state of alienation of the US' traditional allies and friends for them NOT to be onside. Anything can Happen. If the nations themselves break up into distinct enties each such entity will have it's own alliances possibly, even likely, the 'splitters' alliances will be in opposition to those of the original nations'.

But barring the above, and sophomoric knee-jerk patriot fantasies of refighting 1812 aside, Canada will likely remain the US friend and ally onto the 'end of the world'

Even if you do forget us sometimes.
 
How about the Nostrodamus Scenario? Some Arab leader unites the Arab World to form a Superpower, builds missiles and attacks the US? I saw this in the Movie, The Prophesis of Nostrodamus. Whether you believe in them or not, I think it makes for an interesting scenario. You'd basically have to create a whole new superpower from scratch. The Third Reich was formed this way. Whose to say that the country that starts World War III has to exist today. All you really need is one person. Someone who can take advantage of a current political situation like Hitler did and build his empire. In addition you need a bunch of pathetic surrounding countries who are disinterested in what this one man is doing while he builds his power base. Someone unlike the current George Bush, his administration won't last forever, just like Theodore Roosevelt's didn't. Replace a strong national leader with a weak one for whatever reason. In the era of World War III's eve there are no strong leaders in the West, they all want to avoid war at any cost and will not act to forstall the dictators ambitions until its too late and he has built a substantial military machine. We could split the World into regions instead of countries. North America, Latin America, Europe, Asia, Africa, the Middle East. the most attractive would be Latin America, and Africa. A superpower could be made out one of those two regions in 20 years. Latin America hasn't been taken seriously by the US, and neither has Africa, it may be possible for some abitious dictator there to slip something beneath our "radar".
 
Originally posted by Garf:
But barring the above, and sophomoric knee-jerk patriot fantasies of refighting 1812 aside, Canada will likely remain the US friend and ally onto the 'end of the world'

Even if you do forget us sometimes.
It's nice to see someone else who thinks this. OTOH, it may just be due to me looking at Canadian Imigrations refugee web pages... <WEG>

William
 
Don't get me wrong. Even friends can disagree and quarrel sometimes. And even friends don't alway appreciate each other's 'flaws'.

An American Flag hangs beside my Canadian one in the window of my apartment and has done so since 9/11. BUT I have also been known for my 'anti-american' rants. Usually prompted by some arrogant or ignorant thing I've perceived your nation as perpetrating against mine.

um... where was I going?

Just because some of us bitch at/about you doesn't mean our nation hates you.

you would have to take the 'if you're not with us you're against us' to the extreme and DRIVE us away for us to cease to be friends.

IMO. anyway.
 
An American Flag hangs beside my Canadian one in the window of my apartment and has done so since 9/11. BUT I have also been known for my 'anti-american' rants. Usually prompted by some arrogant or ignorant thing I've perceived your nation as perpetrating against mine.
It is an accident of history that the United States and Canada are separate nations, they both started out as British colonies (or in the case of Quebec, French) Canada really didn't have any sort of separate identity until after the American Revolution, until then it was just another British-American Colony. If history were just slightly different and Canadians were Americans, they'd probably be solidly behind the war and Iraq and complaining less about the prisoners secluded at Guantanimo and their civil rights because they themselves would be the targets of terrorism as Americans. Since they are Canadians and not "United Statesians", they can afford to be more critical of American efforts to fight terrorism since their own personal safety is not as much at stake. I bet your perspective would change a great deal if all of Britian's North American Colonies left the Empire during the revolutionary war instead of just some of them. What do you think?
 
Tom.
I'm not going to touch that with ten foot pole.
I'm a Canadian not an American and Don't currently wish to be one.

I find your thinly veiled 'accident of history, wanna be president' Manifest Destiny BS to be frankly offensive.

I was not talking about your perceptions of our perceptions of the war on terrorism.

I was speaking generally about how our nations, despite fools like you, are still friends.

I'm NOT going to enter a debate with you on your perception of the war on terror and how you percieve that my nation is not supporting it.

especially not on the day before my Nation's birthday.

(NO, NOT July 4th)

PS - Okay The point of all but the first post I made to this thread is that When the end of the world comes, Canada for however much or little its worth, will be on side with the Americans. Of that I have little doubt.

As for the very first post, in which I asked Tom, obliquely, if he wished his nation would attack Canada and considered them 'barbarians' I apologise to the other members of the post. In the future I won't 'feed the trolls'.

Tom If you really want to provoke me into responding to your political commentary make your anti-Canadian posts on Random Static.

Again Apologies to all for my share of the Off Topic posts between Tom and Myself.

Any future posts to this thread will concern how to extrapolate current politics into a T2000 scenario and not be related to any other discussion.
omega.gif
 
Garf,
I find your views about Canadian and American relations interesting as I have never really discussed it before.

Question: Initially in the Twilight war America deploys troops to regain assets seized due to an embargo by the UN. The conflict escalates by events centered around China and additional troops are deployed around the globe.

Would Canada openly support the US by supplying troops to recover US assets overseas? My thought would be they might condemn the sanctions placed by the UN, but would not become involved unless Canadian assets were threatened. (When I refer to ‘assets’ I refer to a vague set of property important to the national defense of the US) With hostilities heating up around the globe it can be presumed that North American security becomes an issue at which point Canada would be more likely to send in the troops. How am I doing so far?

With the WWW3 in full bloom, WMDs are exchanged and the world suffers a devastating nuclear winter. Prior to the exchange the political climate between Canada and the US stays strong, even Mexico and perhaps some South American countries have joined together for mutual aid and support. In a very short time frame the governments of North America are destroyed and the provinces and states begin to deteriorate due to starvation, riots and disease. By the end of the first nuclear winter local governments start popping up. Bush wars to determine territory rights begin. The American government is divided between a military government and a civilian government with neither having the ability to hold together a nation. Mexico decides to reclaim some of her old lands (Though it would be a tough fight, sorry Texans and other south western readers, but it is part of the original history and is still be held at this time).

What is happening in Canada? My guess would be pretty similar to the US as far as local governments popping up. Would the Provincial governments (Is there such a thing?) attempt to reestablish control? Would there be a split between the national civilian and military governments? Between the provincial and national government? Perhaps between the military and everyone else? Does Canada have rules governing martial law during times of crisis?

This has little to do with the Europe war but I think it will be important to have at least a basic concept of what the undercurrents in North and South America could be.

Whew…..I’m done.

Sorry another thought. How does France fit into the Canadian equation? Does the French government hold sway over any areas? If so, could those elements affect Canadian and US relations?
 
Tom.
I'm not going to touch that with ten foot pole.
I'm a Canadian not an American and Don't currently wish to be one.

I find your thinly veiled 'accident of history, wanna be president' Manifest Destiny BS to be frankly offensive.
You are saying Canadians and United Statesians do not have common cultural roots? Ok if Canada wasn't founded by the British then who did?
 
Originally posted by Garf:


Tom If you really want to provoke me into responding to your political commentary make your anti-Canadian posts on Random Static.

Again Apologies to all for my share of the Off Topic posts between Tom and Myself.

Any future posts to this thread will concern how to extrapolate current politics into a T2000 scenario and not be related to any other discussion.
omega.gif
[/QB]
omega.gif
means End, 30, Finito, FIN, 'nuff said.
 
Originally posted by Sgt Biggles:
Garf,
I find your views about Canadian and American relations interesting as I have never really discussed it before.


That's okay we're used to being taken for granted. ;] -- Seriously though. I'm not surprised at times our 'relationship' seems onesided. We cannot help but be aware of you (as nations) but it's also VERY obvious to us that the a reciprocral awareness/understanding does not apply. It's okay we understand you're much larger and more of a mover and shaker. But -right there- you find part of the ... Ambivalence... the the Canadian collective psyche when it comes to our loud and visible neighbour and close friend.

Question: Initially in the Twilight war America deploys troops to regain assets seized due to an embargo by the UN. The conflict escalates by events centered around China and additional troops are deployed around the globe.

Would Canada openly support the US by supplying troops to recover US assets overseas? My thought would be they might condemn the sanctions placed by the UN, but would not become involved unless Canadian assets were threatened. (When I refer to ‘assets’ I refer to a vague set of property important to the national defense of the US) With hostilities heating up around the globe it can be presumed that North American security becomes an issue at which point Canada would be more likely to send in the troops. How am I doing so far?


Well. Canada has strong ties to the UN. One of our former Prime Ministers earned the Nobel Peace Prize for proposing the deployment of 'peacekeepers' back in the 50's. It was Canadian Troops who kept Turk and Greek Cypriots from getting it on for decades. It was Canadians wearing the powder blue Berets who were booted out of the Mid-east by Nassar during the '67 Arab-Israeli War. Other Canadian have had influential roles in framing such documents as the UN bill of human rights. The exact nature of this dispute between the UN/US would have to be clarified and intensified to the point were Canada had to pick sides.

But you are right. The first reaction. (if our current 'bleah' leadership is any example) would be to try to have it both ways.

Remember that Canada also has strong ties to the US. There were Canadian officers Manning the boards at Norad on 9/11. Canada shut it's nation down for several days to park all those planes denied entry into US airspace. Without prompting by the Gov't private citizens opened their homes and flooded aid agencies, to billet stranded americans and offer their help. Canadian SAR techs (often racing accross the border in POVs) were the first Foriegn Nationals at Ground Zero helping with the rescue/cleanup. This was not done for thanks or becuase our leader's thought it was good diplomacy. it was the knee jerk reaction of many Canadians. Inculuding myself (I was frustrated: No stranded americans in my isolated town, Red Cross didn't want my Thyroid Medication tainted blood. I settled for buying a flag only because it was ALL I could do.)

Some of this goodwill was... squandered by your current president not long afterwords. but thats not really germaine to the topic.

Canadian Troops were on the ground and took casualties in Afghanistan.

NORAD is under discusion into an 'all branches' (not just Aerospace) Alliance.

I think you can rest assured. that UNLESS your scenario specifically states that the US has gone out of it's way to drive it's neigbhour into a different alliance that Canada and the US will be linked at the hip until they cease to be nations.


With the WWW3 in full bloom, WMDs are exchanged and the world suffers a devastating nuclear winter. Prior to the exchange the political climate between Canada and the US stays strong, even Mexico and perhaps some South American countries have joined together for mutual aid and support. In a very short time frame the governments of North America are destroyed and the provinces and states begin to deteriorate due to starvation, riots and disease. By the end of the first nuclear winter local governments start popping up. Bush wars to determine territory rights begin. The American government is divided between a military government and a civilian government with neither having the ability to hold together a nation. Mexico decides to reclaim some of her old lands (Though it would be a tough fight, sorry Texans and other south western readers, but it is part of the original history and is still be held at this time).

What is happening in Canada? My guess would be pretty similar to the US as far as local governments popping up. Would the Provincial governments (Is there such a thing?) attempt to reestablish control?


yes, just like your State Legislatures are DC in miniature so do our provinces have their own Provincial Legislatures that are Parliament in miniature. The Provinces DON'T have copies of our moribund senate. But do have Lt. Governors in paralell with our Governor General. Toronto is the Capital of Ontario, Winnipeg rules Manitoba etc. We also have Vast Territories which are under direct federal rule.

I'm not sure how our breakdown would occur. The federal system is very strong in Canada. Our National police force also holds the contracts for provincial policing in all but about 2 or three of our provinces. And in those provinces the Mounties are likely to provide your local municipal policing as well. additionally they have Coast Guard type vessels, Aircraft and until the 1970's were also our CounterSpy organisation. heck they are even one of our best internationally known symbols. (Heh. how's that for a Democracy, uses a COP as a trademark?)

The Federal/Provincial split(s) could be interesting. If Ottawa loses ENOUGH power I don't see it holding sway even in it's home Province (Ontario.) I'm going to have to think and chew on this and get back to you.

Would there be a split between the national civilian and military governments? Between the provincial and national government? Perhaps between the military and everyone else? Does Canada have rules governing martial law during times of crisis?



I'm sure it does, But to my shame I don't recall them. Maybe Paul Nemeth can clarify. Paul?


Two things you have to remember about Canada's military:

1) Is it's VERY small, Top heavy with officer, and hasn't had a PENNY spent on it by successive federal Governments since the 1960's that wasn't armtwisted beyond belief. The fact that our Helicopters are currently falling out of the sky wasn't enough to keep the current Gov't from canceling a contract so near completion that they paid nearly as much for NOT getting the new EH's
as they would have for buying them.

2)Even in the military the Canadian... historical psyche as developed a different ideas about the use of violence and the application of force.
we DID not develop a frontier myth that said "You got a problem. Shoot it!" We WEREN't Concieved in a revolution and Born in a civil war.

OUR rebellions all failed militarily but arguebly won the peace. Our military adventures were all military successes but the peace deals that resulted were less rewarding. Our best known homegrown terrorists, the FLQ, were quickly marginalised in the 70's by the very people they claimed to be blowing up mail boxes in defence of.



This has little to do with the Europe war but I think it will be important to have at least a basic concept of what the undercurrents in North and South America could be.

I'm not sure the Reg Force would be divided against the Civil Federal Gov't.

I could see regional schisms expecially among the reserve regiments which are all locally raised and have healthy rivalries. Without orders and isolated from their commands I suspect the Regular force would also join the regional polities. but... it would depend on So many details.

But grand picture. the Canadian Schisms would be Regional not military/Civil. IMO

Whew…..I’m done.

Sorry another thought. How does France fit into the Canadian equation? Does the French government hold sway over any areas? If so, could those elements affect Canadian and US relations?
HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH!

um.... how does Lichenstein figure in American politics?

Seriously man, France, except as a sometimes friendly nation and co-NATO member hasn't had any sway in ANY canadian politics since General's Montcalm and Wolfe killed each other on the Plains of Abraham.

Okay there was that incident in the 60's were DeGaul announced 'Vive La Quebec Libre' and Got the separatists all happy while the rest of Canada suggested that the PM on HIS visit should announce "Vive La Basque Libre"

but overall France has no Political influence even among die hard separtist Francophones. (some cultural yes, just like Britain has some cultural influence on Anglophones).

BTW. 'French Fries' are mostly made in Canada at least the potatoes are grown there. Boycotting them won't hurt France. Just thought I'd mention that.
 
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I got a kick from the French response. Never did think boycotting French fries and French toast was overly bright. So I didn’t. Some people…….Anyway…..

"There were Canadian officers Manning the boards at Norad on 9/11."

I did a seven year hitch with Space Command. Even played T2K with some Canadian satellite drivers. Canada has a huge investment with NORAD. The majority of our northern tier early warning systems are sitting on Canadian soil. I put in for a 3 month rotation at a couple of the sites just to get see county. Never got to go. Instead they sent me to Panama, Columbia and Honduras. My friends that went to the Canadian sites didn’t get shot at either. Humph!

Another thought crossed my mind. From news clips and the very limited association I have had with UN Peacekeepers, it seems there is a rather large contingent of Canadians, especially considering the size of your military. I have never heard a negative comment about Canadian servicemen and women who serve overseas. I cant say the same about US troops. This is just me but I think Canadians have an awful lot to proud of in their, your, military. To include the RCMP into that mix goes without question. Oregon has based its law enforcement training standards on the RCMP model. We regularly send state LE trainers to learn more.

So how does it feel giving a basic course in Canadian Political Science? I have learned a lot. I appreciate the time you’ve taken to answer my questions. Keep it coming.

I will be off the boards for a week. My daughter is coming home from college and is bringing her boyfriend who wants to talk to me about marrying her. After we dance the swords and I am confident my ‘point’
file_22.gif
has been made I may be getting a son-in-law. So we shall see.

Thanks again.
 
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