Was the Rebellion as a setting sustainable?

[mike wightman]

Which TNE is Marc referring to? Is it 1200, 1248 or is it that Marc meant that by the new era of the Galaxiad setting virus would have evolved into sentient machines in the Lorenverse too.

I can't find a reference to The Empress Wave in GT either, is that going to hit the Lorenverse?

 

[aramis]

Really? New one on me. OK lets go with this one.

I thought originally, the benefit of Lorenverse was to have a pretty pretty place without Rebellion, where the Starburst of Third Imperium never set. So when AotI came out I was shocked and like "So much for that. Mwuah, hahaha! We're all doomed!"

Seriously, however, what would the ATU look like with No Rebellion, but with TNE?
Was Virus activated or what was the catalyst to burn out Charted Space?
Does anyone survive sort of intact like the Marches? Or do they all go Pocket Empires and Star Vikings?

Really. To have TNE, we need the Virus to destroy known space at least 50, preferably 70, years prior to TNE's reference date of 1200.
The Lorenverse runs to about 1126. So, that gives us a 24 year window - 1127-1150.

Which TNE is Marc referring to? Is it 1200, 1248 or is it that Marc meant that by the new era of the Galaxiad setting virus would have evolved into sentient machines in the Lorenverse too.

I can't find a reference to The Empress Wave in GT either, is that going to hit the Lorenverse?

Yes, the Empress wave hits the lorenverse. The Lorenverse gets merged back into the main timeline sometime after 1126; thanks to virus, it has little difference in setting history after 1200.

Which means something's gotta turn it loose about the same time... but note that with the "One Big Happy Fleet" of the Lorenverse, the Deyo chips are likely far more common when it hits... as local regions haven't been replacing Deyo-Chip SDG series Imperial transponders with local manufacture... which means it's likely to spread further, faster, and do more damage itself... especially given that they all still operate on the same software, too.

 

[Quint]

...Similarly, either Dulinor killed someone that had the role of Strephon in the palace, or his ship blew up before he ever reached the palace for his audience. This is not disagreement over a detail such as whether he took 1 shot or 6 to do the deed. Either Dulinor did the deed and the Golden Age of the Imperium ended in the fiery holocaust of the war of the Rebellion, or it didn't. However skewed or incomplete the records, I do not think people would forget entirely about the existence of a war spanning a good chunk of Charted Space destroying within a generation the largest interstellar state of the time, not unless we are talking about a huge time jump into the future, not merely a few centuries or a few thousand years...

Conspiracy theory and/or pseudo-science.

I can walk into pretty much any bookshop and find a "history book" that posits some theory that is pretty much in conflict with otherwise accepted fact. Often it takes some obscure date point(s) and strings them together to fit a narrative.

Ancient Aliens, Hitler in South America post-WWII, Oak Island, Giants are real, etc.

There is a pretty much an entire TV channel devoted to such things now.

D.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Also from a IY1900 perspective. Consider:
Virus rips thru destroying/rewriting electronic databases like the Vilani AAB on Vland or Reference/Core. Whether it is 1130 or 1150, people will be more interested in trying to survive than talking and writing about the Rebellion. Perhaps the only records left are static relatively non-volatile non-electronic TL 1-4 media.
OR
The Empress Wave hits driving everyone insane. AotI shows it is non-psionic Vilani descendants being driven insane as well as plants and animals. So the Wave is pretty intense. Maybe the history of the Rebellion was the plot bible of a famous holovid. Maybe episodes exist, shot in an intense hyper-realism style that makes survivors think it was real.
Either way, add 700 years. Stir.
:coffeesip:
And in the end, Virus and the Empress Wave won the Traveller canon wars. Hilarity ensues. :rofl:

 

[Iracundus]

Also from a IY1900 perspective. Consider:
Virus rips thru destroying/rewriting electronic databases like the Vilani AAB on Vland or Reference/Core. Whether it is 1130 or 1150, people will be more interested in trying to survive than talking and writing about the Rebellion. Perhaps the only records left are static relatively non-volatile non-electronic TL 1-4 media.

And those non-volatile non-electronic records, right now IRL, have recorded history for thousands of years. While there may be some political bias, key pivotal events have survived, sometimes in astonishing detail.

Try for example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jing_Ke

Assassination attempt on the 1st Emperor of China, recorded with ink on wood/bamboo strips from interviews with eye-witnesses. We have the details down to the farcical circle chase round a pillar and thrown medicinal powder bags. That occurred over 2,200 years ago and was a pivotal event comparable to the assassination (or not) of Strephon.

If humans can remember that, a mere 700 years should not be enough to wipe out all memory and records (even the non-electronic ones) on all worlds of whether or not an apocalyptic war happened to destroy the 3rd Imperium.

 

[whartung]

Ancient Aliens, Hitler in South America post-WWII, Oak Island, Giants are real, etc.

Oh I'm all over the Oak Island stuff right now. I don't know if those guys are getting paid by the TV show or not, but they're sinking (perhaps literally) a crap load of money in to digging a hole there right now. They sure do drill up some intriguing junk.

Really. To have TNE, we need the Virus to destroy known space at least 50, preferably 70, years prior to TNE's reference date of 1200.
The Lorenverse runs to about 1126. So, that gives us a 24 year window - 1127-1150.

The trick here is that with the Rebellion, the Virus had a pretty soft target to rip through and establish itself, including parties willing to let it grow and take out their enemies, without, perhaps, appreciating that they were next. We also had the Regency, effectively at full strength and less affected by the Rebellion, able to mobilize and defend against the Virus.

Now, unless there's some catastrophe (perhaps the Empress Wave, I dunno), the Virus will have to attack an Imperium that is, ostensibly, full strength and un-distracted.

So that will be an interesting trick.

 

[Quint]

And those non-volatile non-electronic records, right now IRL, have recorded history for thousands of years. While there may be some political bias, key pivotal events have survived, sometimes in astonishing detail.

Try for example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jing_Ke

Assassination attempt on the 1st Emperor of China, recorded with ink on wood/bamboo strips from interviews with eye-witnesses. We have the details down to the farcical circle chase round a pillar and thrown medicinal powder bags. That occurred over 2,200 years ago and was a pivotal event comparable to the assassination (or not) of Strephon.

If humans can remember that, a mere 700 years should not be enough to wipe out all memory and records (even the non-electronic ones) on all worlds of whether or not an apocalyptic war happened to destroy the 3rd Imperium.

"Can" does not mean "will" - and, as has been noted, we don't "know" that a history is true, we accept that it is true because we have chosen to accept an account as historical as opposed to myth or fiction or legend. Sans a time machine we don't what was the truth of Jing Ke was or not, nor would anyone in 1900 Imperial know it of the Rebellion - it also assumes that people beyond historians even care that much about what happened in the 1100's.

People can't agree on the truth of things that have happened in the last 50-100 years, or we have incomplete (at best) accounts of events. The Imperium went through a complete meltdown the likes of which we can barely imagine - sure, some events have survived in amazing historical detail (we assume) but between Virus, Wave, Black War, and the Lords of Thunder, Known Space has had several "slate-cleaners" when it comes to narrative disrupting events.

D.

 

[GypsyComet]

If humans can remember that, a mere 700 years should not be enough to wipe out all memory and records (even the non-electronic ones) on all worlds of whether or not an apocalyptic war happened to destroy the 3rd Imperium.

The problem is one of time scale. By the time Virus hits every data system it can reach, all of Charted Space (the usual poster map) has been using electronic storage systems for 2500 years if you include the Aslan, roughly twice that for everyone else, and as much as four times that for the region within the First Imperium. By comparison we have been using electronic media for 40 odd years, and have still not made the conversion complete.

The Imperium also *burned*. Virus was not simply a computer collapse, but a horde of murderous machines using every available option to inflict personal, societal, and infrastructure injury to everything within reach. Meson fire from orbit at old population centers is going to catch a lot of National Libraries and museums.

 

[Iracundus]

The Imperium also *burned*. Virus was not simply a computer collapse, but a horde of murderous machines using every available option to inflict personal, societal, and infrastructure injury to everything within reach. Meson fire from orbit at old population centers is going to catch a lot of National Libraries and museums.

People remember, particularly if it is a society defining era like the Rebellion or the Virus. Tales and sayings can get culturally and linguistically embedded, even for non-historians, as proverbs or morality tales.

The Vilani revere tradition and history as do many RL cultures on Earth. For some RL cultures and nations, past historical issues still remain relevant now centuries afterwards. Even if the Imperium's libraries and museums blew up from meson fire, or maybe especially because they blew up from meson fire, people will remember and tell tales, particularly if the end of the Imperium came suddenly within a generation. Whether Virus came after the black wars of the Rebellion were underway or was somehow being released upon an unsuspecting Golden Age Lorenverse would be remembered by the survivors. In the first, Virus would be the final end for an already war torn and war weary society. In the second, it would be like a sudden zombie apocalypse unleashed today. The nature of the end would affect the stories the survivors tell.

As someone who does not know much about Galaxiad at all, is it in any way linked to the 3rd Imperium like how the 3rd claimed descent from the 2nd and 1st? Or is the 3rd Imperium a dead civilization culturally cut off for the average person from the "present" of the Galaxiad, like say ancient Sumerian or Old Kingdom Egypt from modern Western society? If there is a cultural linkage and continuity, then even more likely that tales of the death of the 3rd Imperium will get remembered and passed on.

 

[McPerth]

The problem is one of time scale. By the time Virus hits every data system it can reach, all of Charted Space (the usual poster map) has been using electronic storage systems for 2500 years if you include the Aslan, roughly twice that for everyone else, and as much as four times that for the region within the First Imperium. By comparison we have been using electronic media for 40 odd years, and have still not made the conversion complete.

The Imperium also *burned*. Virus was not simply a computer collapse, but a horde of murderous machines using every available option to inflict personal, societal, and infrastructure injury to everything within reach. Meson fire from orbit at old population centers is going to catch a lot of National Libraries and museums.

Does this mean that lower TL systems (those at pre-electronics TL, le'ts say 6-) have no records of all this data?

Many of them are Imperial members, and I guess Imperial History is also taught in their universities, and their records are in non electronic support (dead three books or whatever they use as substitute). This is quite likely to survive the virus, more so as those planets are quite likely to be less affected by it (no computers to infect, no robots to control, etc... The Virus may well see them as barren worlds undeserving any attention from it).

And those worlds are likely to develop into higher TL ones by themselves, if they have enough population base, and knowing about the Virus, take steps for their newly built electronic equipment not ot be affected by it (if compatibility is enough for this to be a real danger).

And even if they do not so develop, they wil lbe seen as knowledge repostory bu the expanding societies. What use is done about this knowledge may well be subject to political bias too, I must admit...

 

[Golan2072]

I once toyed with an OTU variant called Sol Invictus. By the 1100's, moderate winds prevailed in the Solomani leadership. However, preparation for the inevitable "Round 2" of the Solomani Rim War continued with full steam ahead. In this setting, the Solomani bided their time and waited patiently - a moderate government taking the long view and reigning in the zealots helps with that - until the early-mid 1120's. By then, both major sides in the conflict demanded so many naval units and so many taxes from the Rimward sectors to fuel their unwinnable civil war that defenses on the Solomani border were spread very thin.

Then the Solomani struck with unerring precision. They had good intelligence and many years to prepare. They steamrolled over the weakened Imperial defenses. Within a month they took Terra. In seven more months, they reclaimed their old Sphere and reached the Zarushagar-Massilia-Delphi "neck", where they stabilized a frontier. They were wise enough not to stretch themselves as thin as in the old Rule of Man, and were wise enough to avoid intervening in the big Dulinor-Lucan war itself.

The year now is 1140. There was no Virus. Dulinor "won" the Rebellion in the 1130's and is Emperor. On paper, he rules 11,000 worlds. In practice, he hardly controls 110 - and most of them heavily devastated by decades of war. He bled Ilelish/Verge dry by taxation and conscription to feed his war effort, and eventually this led to an uprising, forcing his daughter to flee to Capital while his former subjects formed the Verge Combine. Around the Rum Imperium ruled by Dulinor there are parsecs upon parsecs of devastated blight, haunted by raiders and pirates. Solomani space, in comparison, is safer and more prosperous. The moderate Solomani government took a "Sol Man's Burden" view of alien affairs; for the most part, this means paternalism and coercion towards non-Solomani, but no ethnic cleansing (to the disappointment of the hardliners). Solomani forces are spread thin, however, and there is much lawlessness (and thus room for PCs to make a difference and/or engage in crime) even on the Solomani periphery. There are also local Solomani hardliners who take far more extreme stances on alien affairs than the government on Terra.

Of course, as most Solomani forces are spread in their new territories, the Aslan might be brewing something in the Dark Nebula, where only a small garrison remains...

 

[aramis]

Does this mean that lower TL systems (those at pre-electronics TL, le'ts say 6-) have no records of all this data?

Many of them are Imperial members, and I guess Imperial History is also taught in their universities, and their records are in non electronic support (dead three books or whatever they use as substitute). This is quite likely to survive the virus, more so as those planets are quite likely to be less affected by it (no computers to infect, no robots to control, etc... The Virus may well see them as barren worlds undeserving any attention from it).

And those worlds are likely to develop into higher TL ones by themselves, if they have enough population base, and knowing about the Virus, take steps for their newly built electronic equipment not ot be affected by it (if compatibility is enough for this to be a real danger).

And even if they do not so develop, they wil lbe seen as knowledge repostory bu the expanding societies. What use is done about this knowledge may well be subject to political bias too, I must admit...

IIRC, It's against Imperial law to provide high-tech to TL5 & lower; they're not members, but protectorates.

Probably, a lot of the tech stuff won't be mirrored in their books... once they get computers, they get the data dump from hell.

And, for the most part, they're not going to progress unless they have exploitable minerals on surface... which were the only things they had to trade of value before that.

 

[mike wightman]

IIRC, It's against Imperial law to provide high-tech to TL5 & lower; they're not members, but protectorates.

I do not recall that bit - any idea where it may be mentioned?
If you look at the CT Regina subsector for example - lots of pre-computer TL worlds that are full members of the Imperium - the Imperium does not have a prime directive, it has economics and greedy megacorporations and nobles.

Consider this - how do you brainwash them into loyal Imperial subjects if you don't give them history books to read?

 

[Iracundus]

I once toyed with an OTU variant called Sol Invictus. By the 1100's, moderate winds prevailed in the Solomani leadership. However, preparation for the inevitable "Round 2" of the Solomani Rim War continued with full steam ahead. In this setting, the Solomani bided their time and waited patiently - a moderate government taking the long view and reigning in the zealots helps with that - until the early-mid 1120's. By then, both major sides in the conflict demanded so many naval units and so many taxes from the Rimward sectors to fuel their unwinnable civil war that defenses on the Solomani border were spread very thin.

Then the Solomani struck with unerring precision. They had good intelligence and many years to prepare. They steamrolled over the weakened Imperial defenses. Within a month they took Terra. In seven more months, they reclaimed their old Sphere and reached the Zarushagar-Massilia-Delphi "neck", where they stabilized a frontier. They were wise enough not to stretch themselves as thin as in the old Rule of Man, and were wise enough to avoid intervening in the big Dulinor-Lucan war itself.

The year now is 1140. There was no Virus. Dulinor "won" the Rebellion in the 1130's and is Emperor. On paper, he rules 11,000 worlds. In practice, he hardly controls 110 - and most of them heavily devastated by decades of war. He bled Ilelish/Verge dry by taxation and conscription to feed his war effort, and eventually this led to an uprising, forcing his daughter to flee to Capital while his former subjects formed the Verge Combine. Around the Rum Imperium ruled by Dulinor there are parsecs upon parsecs of devastated blight, haunted by raiders and pirates. Solomani space, in comparison, is safer and more prosperous. The moderate Solomani government took a "Sol Man's Burden" view of alien affairs; for the most part, this means paternalism and coercion towards non-Solomani, but no ethnic cleansing (to the disappointment of the hardliners). Solomani forces are spread thin, however, and there is much lawlessness (and thus room for PCs to make a difference and/or engage in crime) even on the Solomani periphery. There are also local Solomani hardliners who take far more extreme stances on alien affairs than the government on Terra.

Of course, as most Solomani forces are spread in their new territories, the Aslan might be brewing something in the Dark Nebula, where only a small garrison remains...

Sounds interesting, though I personally like the multi-faction situation of the Rebellion over a dyadic Imperium vs. Confederation, simply to avoid the players falling into the easy trope of one side =Good, and the other side = Bad.

Lower TL worlds would still have histories on paper (or other material) and even the Imperium does not appear to have entirely done away with some version of printing stuff out onto something. If they had any link with the outside, they would have heard something of the madness going on elsewhere, or maybe even witness it as a Virus infected ship self destructs in some fashion in front of everyone (while having nothing else to infect).

 

[Golan2072]

Sounds interesting, though I personally like the multi-faction situation of the Rebellion over a dyadic Imperium vs. Confederation, simply to avoid the players falling into the easy trope of one side =Good, and the other side = Bad.

It's an over-stretched Confederation vs. a battered Imperium vs. the Verge Combine and other factions in what is nominally "Imperial" space. Not to mention the Aslan who eye the weak Solomani defenses in the Dark Nebula and contemplate an invasion...

 

[aramis]

As someone who does not know much about Galaxiad at all, is it in any way linked to the 3rd Imperium like how the 3rd claimed descent from the 2nd and 1st? Or is the 3rd Imperium a dead civilization culturally cut off for the average person from the "present" of the Galaxiad, like say ancient Sumerian or Old Kingdom Egypt from modern Western society? If there is a cultural linkage and continuity, then even more likely that tales of the death of the 3rd Imperium will get remembered and passed on.

i am not certain... i have access to some drafts, but havent read them. It is in the OTU, circa 1900 yi, and is a H1 setting. Pretty much everyplace that isn't up to tech gets marginalized. .. because hop is cheaper than jump. If you are worth trading with, you get directly h1 routed with a nearby hop-capable civ... on their terms. H1 warships can max out their spinals and bays... much uglier.... and can often carry fighters, since they use under 20% of displacement tonnage for travel and control... as low as 7% with AM PP. ..

 

[GypsyComet]

I do not recall that bit - any idea where it may be mentioned?
If you look at the CT Regina subsector for example - lots of pre-computer TL worlds that are full members of the Imperium - the Imperium does not have a prime directive, it has economics and greedy megacorporations and nobles.

Consider this - how do you brainwash them into loyal Imperial subjects if you don't give them history books to read?

It is a case by case thing. Low Tech worlds with native (or "gone native") populations may become protectorates, but those can usually be spotted easily by the Red Zone put in place.

For the garden variety low tech worlds, it isn't so much that they don't know about tech, just that they have to import it.

 

[jec10]

Yes, I'd imagine it would be like any third world country on Terra circa 2016. Plenty of cellphones, tablets, etc. But they can't manufacture them. They're imported.

I guess as Hard Times settle in they're thrown away as and when they fail and reversion to earlier tech takes place.

 

[GypsyComet]

I guess as Hard Times settle in they're thrown away as and when they fail and reversion to earlier tech takes place.

Part of the problem during Hard Times is the halting of those imports that keep lower tech worlds alive where their "native" TL wouldn't. When the nearby TL12 will happily sell air filters to your little nasty atmosphere refining endeavor, why make any yourself? Now install centuries-old Vilani-style contracts...

 

[Iracundus]

Obviously there would be a sort of filtering effect. Only those planets where populations can survive at a lower TL can survive to remember anything about what happened. How they survive would obviously affect how their stories and histories turn out.

If a world was already low TL, then it could be simply be as simple as the ships stop coming, with maybe the last few telling tales of the Rebellion and Virus. If a world was higher TL and then collapsed down to a lower TL as a result of the Rebellion or Virus, obviously their tales would be more apocalyptic. But either case should still have some memory of whether Virus was released in the aftermath of the black wars of the Rebellion or whether Virus was somehow sprung on the unsuspecting Imperium (Lorenverse), ending its Golden Age instantly.