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What does this paragraph mean to you?

With GT:Far Trader, people always get put out because they say, "It is 144 pages of detailed trade and economic rules!" and run away screaming.

The truly unfortunate part is that they completely miss the "Basic Trade System". The Basic Trade System from GT:FT solves the stupidity of the classic Traveller trade system, and puts trade into the background where it belongs. And all of this is accomplished in less than one page of rules.

But almost no one here will even look at it, because it has "GURPS" on the cover.
 
That was my attitude to GURPS at first but I have since been converted not to the system but to the books for source material. I'll have to buy it I think if the economic model is so good.
 
Somebody else (I don't recall which of these threads or if it was on another board) mentioned that while GT:FT has a workable trade model it is meshed with other elements of GT (I'm guessing ship costs) and that a straight port to other Traveller rules won't work. Is that a fair assessment?
 
Yes, the prices given in GT:FT are not workable in CT, as they are too low. (GT has, in general, much lower ship prices. Which is a good thing, IMO.)

When trying to use the full GT:FT economic scheme, running the conversions can be difficult, especially since the TL scales are different (and the GT one is pretty much wrong for TTL 14+, too).

However, for the Basic Trade System, it isn't too much to scale the prices up to what is needed for CT/T20. Especially since the main GT sourcebook gives you the numbers to use for the translation.

In a nutshell, in CT terms, here is the Basic Trade System:

Passenger:
High 10 KCr/passenger/parsec
Mid 8 KCr/passenger/parsec
Low 1 KCr/passenger/parsec

Cargo:
Freight 900 Cr/ton/parsec for high- and mid-traffic routes
Freight 1000 Cr/ton/parsec for low-traffic and frontier routes

Mail:
25 KCr, if fitted.

As you can see, it is literally just changing from per-jump to per-parsec. The only difference is that the freight charges are a little less on the main routes because you have to undercut the "professionals" in order to get customers to go "tramp" with you.

The only other major consideration is that the cargo and passenger availability rolls in GT:FT use the "Bilateral Trade Number", which is calculated based on the pop digit, TL, and the starport. The starport factor is a sliding scale based on pop, so it is hard to just give as a straight formula. Instead, just use the CT/T20 process, but don't enforce lot sizes if you don't want to.
 
Originally posted by daryen:
But almost no one here will even look at it, because it has "GURPS" on the cover.
And as a result will miss out on all the crunchy background goodness that the GT books have


However, you then answered your own "question" with:
Yes, the prices given in GT:FT are not workable in CT, as they are too low. (GT has, in general, much lower ship prices. Which is a good thing, IMO.)

When trying to use the full GT:FT economic scheme, running the conversions can be difficult, especially since the TL scales are different (and the GT one is pretty much wrong for TTL 14+, too).
plus:
The only other major consideration is that the cargo and passenger availability rolls in GT:FT use the "Bilateral Trade Number", which is calculated based on the pop digit, TL, and the starport. The starport factor is a sliding scale based on pop, so it is hard to just give as a straight formula. Instead, just use the CT/T20 process, but don't enforce lot sizes if you don't want to.
To paraphrase Malenfant - why should I have to do all the work ;)
And herein lies the problem for integrating GT material with CT/MT/TNE/T4/T20 - the different price structures and tech level scale. Its not unique in that though, the cost of ships changes from edition to edition in CT/MT/TNE/T4/T20 - they even change within CT if you design by LBB2 vs HG and vise versa.
In a nutshell, in CT terms, here is the Basic Trade System:
<snip>
As you can see, it is literally just changing from per-jump to per-parsec. The only difference is that the freight charges are a little less on the main routes because you have to undercut the "professionals" in order to get customers to go "tramp" with you.
Nice - simple and usable.
Thanks daryen
 
Actually, while I usually argue the "Fixed cost" means if a J1 posts for three parsecs, it's three jumps at cost...

but I just did some ugly math, and realized, "Hey! If a J3 ship is going J1, it will charge the same as J1. So, a 3J1 passage is 3xrate, so a J3 will charge triple book for a J3 run, but only single book rate for a J1..."

But then I shake my head and go, "naw, the truth is that Marc wants the Imperium to discourage long-range passages in order to force people to spend money on the intervening worlds..."
 
Originally posted by Malenfant:
That makes no sense though. Effectively, the Imperium is crippling itself by doing that - it basically forces most people to take the slowest route to get somewhere, unless they have lots of subsidised ships travelling on every route.

If we adapted Traveller logic to realworld airline flights, we'd have a situation where most passenger planes would be low capacity craft that were only capable of short hops only (thus massively extending travel time and expense as customers buy multiple tickets to get to their destination), and there'd be a few subsidised airbuses to take people to their destinations in one trip.

So you either pay through the nose to get to your destination in several trips that would take a couple of days probably, or you pay less to get there directly but would have to wait a few weeks for the next flight to do so.

I don't really see how that helps anyone at all, be they customer, pilot, or government.
Obviously, you've never examined alaska's air traffic flows...

It usually would cost me less to fly to Seattle than to Fairbanks, despite fairbanks being 350 air miles, and seattle over 1500.

And flying to Iggagic, Eek, or Ambler will cost twice that, even tho they're far closer... but you can't get there by any means other than small plane... and a load of fuel is more than the cost of a ticket to Fairbanks for a small prop pusher.

Oh, and I can drive to fairbanks, but the gas cost for drivign is about the same as a round-trip ticket by jet or rail. And Iggagic, Eek, and similar out of the way places are both off the land transport grids and also too small to support anything more than a twin engine small cargo plane (C119 size...) both in terms of population demands and stable runway surface.

edit:
I forgot to mention that, I've a friend in Bristol bay. For him to get to AAnchorage, he flys puddle-jumper (small 4-5 seater) to Nome, Mid-range from nome to Fairbanks, and 727 with a mixed cargo and passenger cabin to anchorage; when we both went to Juneau, I boarded the plane from fairbanks International which proceeds to land in Anchorage International Airport (where I board), then Kodiak, Ketchican, and finally Juneau-Douglass International.
 
Originally posted by Aramis:
Obviously, you've never examined alaska's air traffic flows...

It usually would cost me less to fly to Seattle than to Fairbanks, despite fairbanks being 350 air miles, and seattle over 1500.

And flying to Iggagic, Eek, or Ambler will cost twice that, even tho they're far closer... but you can't get there by any means other than small plane... and a load of fuel is more than the cost of a ticket to Fairbanks for a small prop pusher.

Oh, and I can drive to fairbanks, but the gas cost for drivign is about the same as a round-trip ticket by jet or rail. And Iggagic, Eek, and similar out of the way places are both off the land transport grids and also too small to support anything more than a twin engine small cargo plane (C119 size...) both in terms of population demands and stable runway surface.
Yeah but if a C130 can't land there nobody will.
YOu are dealing with an interesting, yet isolated case. I did find that, in the early 80s flying from Syracuse, NY to NYC, it would cost me an extra $50-75 to land at either LaGuardia or JFK instead of landing at Newark. (Or basically $50+_ to cross the Hudson River by air.) Because everyone wants to go to NYC and nobody wants to go to Newark. (Or is it because the rents are higher in the City, or the landing fees, or.....) Those "In the know" fly into Newark and take PATH across. (Used to cost about $1.50.
)
But every locality is likely to have weird circumstances. Great for color, a pain in the butt for GMing the situation.
 
Originally posted by Aramis:
Actually, while I usually argue the "Fixed cost" means if a J1 posts for three parsecs, it's three jumps at cost...

but I just did some ugly math, and realized, "Hey! If a J3 ship is going J1, it will charge the same as J1. So, a 3J1 passage is 3xrate, so a J3 will charge triple book for a J3 run, but only single book rate for a J1..."

But then I shake my head and go, "naw, the truth is that Marc wants the Imperium to discourage long-range passages in order to force people to spend money on the intervening worlds..."
Now there is an explaination I never thought of.
 
So far I have heard of reasons that the paragraph is poorly written, that Canon says one thing so this paragraph doesn't count, and various discussions on how to fund ships and how the "canon" version of passage is supposed to work. Even variations on how to fund starships and a compromise between charging one rate for cargo and another for passengers.

But I am not hearing any way to read the paragraph besides a ship going 3 parsecs charges 3 times the rate a ship charges for a 1 parsec hop. (Or KCr30 for a high passage on a Jump-3 trip in one hop vs, KCr30 for a 3 parsec trip on three hops.) Am I reading the paragraph correctly then or is there another explaination?

Does this paragraph really contradict the one before that says a ship charges the same per jump regardless of distance? Or is there another way to read this paragraph? Is this paragraph in TNE or T4? If this paragraph is wrong why is it in MT and T20, verbatim?

This paragraph says to me that a ship charges the same regardless of jump drive capability to go to the same destination. Though on longer multiple jump hops, where the higher jump ship gets to "Cut the Corner" how do you price that?

Does a Jump-1 ship that uses demountable or collapsable tanks, to go two parsecs without stopping in between get to charge KCr20 for a High Passage because it took two jumps vs a Jump-2 ship making it in one jump only getting to charge KCr10? (If we charge per jump.)
 
Originally posted by Bhoins:
Does a Jump-1 ship that uses demountable or collapsable tanks, to go two parsecs without stopping in between get to charge KCr20 for a High Passage because it took two jumps vs a Jump-2 ship making it in one jump only getting to charge KCr10? (If we charge per jump.)
Interesting. That throws a new light on the subject. Similarily could a J3 ship take its time and make three separate J1's to get where it's going and charge KCr30? Let's see charge me 3x as much and take much longer?! Definately wrong.

One thought, this price structure does go back to when the game rules required you to blow your full fuel rating for a jump no matter how far you went. Under the oldest rules if your J3 ship only went J1 it still burned the full J3 worth of fuel. That could be a factor in the way the rule was worked out. As for the rest, we may never know the actual intent. I think I will go read the passages in the books again and ponder.
 
Originally posted by Bhoins:
"Difference in starship jump drive capacity have no specific effect on passage prices. A jump-3 starship charges the same passage price as a jump-1 starship. The difference is that a jump-3 ship can reach a destination in one jump, while the jump-1 ship would take three seperate jumps (through two intermediate destinations, and requiring three seperate tickets) to reach it. Higher jump numbers also make otherwise inaccessable destinations within reach. But for two ships of differening jump numbers going to the same destination in one jump, each would charge the same cargo or passage price." (Book 2 pg. 9 also copied directly into MT and T20 rules)
sigh

We (i.e. specifically you and I) already went through this exact paragraph once. Is it really necessary to do so again?

Apparently.

First, the above quote must always be taken into context within the surrounding text. So, let's do so. (All quotes that follow are being taken from The Traveller Book. I imagine the other books are either the same, or close enough.)

Let's back up to the previous section on cargo. This is important. It says:
"The referee should determine all worlds accessible to the starship (depending on jump number), and roll for each such world on the cargo table."
You might say, "Wait, that is for cargo. Why do we need to look at cargo for the passangers?" Fair enough. The answer is in the first paragraph in the passenger section. It says:
"After a starship has accepted cargo for a specific destination, passengers will present themselves for transport to that destination."
OK. This gives us the context of the following paragraphs dealing with taking on passengers. Specifically, we are getting passengers that are to go to a specific destination, which has been determined by the cargo we just took on in the previous section.

Putting this all together, we now know that we have a specific destination world that we are seeking passengers for, we already know this world (because of our cargo) and it is within our jump range. (Please note that last, very important, detail.)

Before moving on to your paragraph, I want to point out one more sentence:
"Passage is always sold on the basis of transport to the announced destination, rather than on jump distance."
Now, on to your quote. The first part says:
"Differences in starship jump drive capacity have no specific effect on passage prices. A jump-3 starship charges the same passage price as a jump-1 starship."
Remember: we already know the destination, and it is within our ship's jump range. Consequently, this quote must be taken within that context. Fundamentally, it is simply restating the sentence I just quoted prior to this.

On to the nasty part:
"The difference is that a jump-3 ship can reach a destination in one jump, while the jump-1 ship would take three separate jumps (through two intermediate destination, and requiring three separate tickets) to reach it. Higher jump numbers also may make otherwise inaccessible destinations within reach."
This would appear to be the passage that is tripping you up. The fundamental problem is that you are reading way too much into it. Note that it it references a generic "a destination", not our specific destination we found back in the cargo section. All the passage is noting is that a destination 3 parsecs away can be reached on a single ticket with a jump-3 ship, but would require three tickets with a jump-1 ship. That is all it is saying. It is not qualifying any purchase price, as that has already been explicitly defined earlier. It isn't directly referencing "our" destination.

Finally:
"But for two ships of differing jump numbers going to the same destination in one jump, each would charge the same cargo or passage price."
Again, this should be very, very clear, and directly ties back into the quotes a pointed out that come before your "problem" passage. It is explicitly saying that a jump-3 ship going one parsec will charge the same as a jump-1 ship going one parsec.

Again, I understand that you won't buy this explanation because you simply don't want to. Fine, that is your choice. But, despite the potentionally poor wording of the "problem" two sentences, the rules are very clear and very unambiguous. Cargo and passengers are charge by jump, not by distance. Period.

Also, consider one other thing. If all of the rules in a game say one thing, but a single sentence (or two) seem to say the opposite, then it is pretty obvious that either a) you are reading it wrong or b) the writer/editor screwed up. Either way you don't toss out all of the other rules in favor of the single exception.

In summary, you are reading the rules wrong because they seem stupid to you. Quite frankly, that rule (price per jump) is stupid. But, unfortunately, that is the unambiguous rule.
 
It's times like this I wish MWM would get involved and pipe up and say "this is what I meant".

Then again, anything he'd say would probably cause a few arguments in itself... ;)
 
Originally posted by Bhoins:
But I am not hearing any way to read the paragraph besides a ship going 3 parsecs charges 3 times the rate a ship charges for a 1 parsec hop. (Or KCr30 for a high passage on a Jump-3 trip in one hop vs, KCr30 for a 3 parsec trip on three hops.) Am I reading the paragraph correctly then or is there another explaination?
No, you aren't reading the paragraph correctly. I already explained this a long time ago, and (just because I want to get to 1000 posts) did so again.

And you know what? You are going to reject my explanation again. Because you don't actually want an answer to the question, you simply want confirmation that your misreading is correct.

The really bizarre thing about this whole issue is that, except for two sentences you are misreading, everything else in Book 2 is completely clear on how to charge the price, and all examples given elsewhere (like in the Signal GK adventure) completely support the rules. But all of that is irrelevant to you. Very strange.

Does a Jump-1 ship that uses demountable or collapsable tanks, to go two parsecs without stopping in between get to charge KCr20 for a High Passage because it took two jumps vs a Jump-2 ship making it in one jump only getting to charge KCr10? (If we charge per jump.)
Actually, this is a very good question that isn't directly answered in Book 2. So, since you have a tremendous reluctance to look at anything other than one paragraph of Book 2, it is undefined.

But, assuming you are willing to consider other rules, the question is answered for you. If you look at the The Traveller Adventure, our industrious heroes gain demountable fuel tanks in order to travel two parsecs in their J-1 ship. In that particular case they do not "double-charge". It still counts as a single jump.
 
Originally posted by Malenfant:
It's times like this I wish MWM would get involved and pipe up and say "this is what I meant".

Then again, anything he'd say would probably cause a few arguments in itself... ;)
Yep, clarification after this much time and debate would probably do little to calm the waters. Even the "it's your game" line is just chum for this topic ;)
 
I'm a little confused by what some people seem to be saying here. I can, at a stretch, believe in a system where it costs the same to go three parsecs whether you go in a J-3 ship in one jump (takes a week or so, IIRC?) or a J-1 ship in three jumps (takes 3-4 weeks?). But if you pay per jump, that would make it CHEAPER to go in the J-3 ship, and the J-3 ship will charge less. This seems crazy to me. Why would anyone run a J-3 ship? Or, if they did, they'd actually make three jumps not one in order to make the payments on their (more expensive) ship?

What am I missing?

AK
 
Originally posted by Aristotle Kzin:
What am I missing?
Nothing actually.

You are completely correct on both counts:
- Prices are based on "per jump", not on distance.
- This is a crazy system that makes no sense.
But, there you are.

That is why I fully endorse using something like the Basic Trade System from GURPS Traveller: Far Trader that I described (in CT terms) earlier in this discussion.
 
As I said earlier, it seems to me that we're better off directing our energy into solving the problem in a way that makes sense rather than trying to figure out what confusing, ambiguous, and/or nonsensical rules mean.
 
Originally posted by Malenfant:
As I said earlier, it seems to me that we're better off directing our energy into solving the problem in a way that makes sense rather than trying to figure out what confusing, ambiguous, and/or nonsensical rules mean.
Well, quite frankly, I don't think the rules are particularly confusing or ambiguous, and I was trying to explain that.

However, I thought I was addressing the main concern and proposed a solution.
 
Just a thought then, why do the merchant lines bother with drives higher than jump 1?
They will make a lot more money by building jump 1 ships with fuel enough for 2 or 3 consecutive jumps
file_23.gif

Or are you saying that the rules say a ship making empty hex jumps don't charge for them?

I'm confused :confused: :eek:
 
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