TNE Only: What if there was no Virus

[Chuck Anumia]

I was curious about what direction Traveller TNE might have taken if the "Virus" had never happened and the Rebellion played its self out to some logical conclusion (Margaret, Dulinor, Stephrons clone or another wins)

Could TNE have been better off without the virus or was it necessary to destroy everything that way?

 

[mike wightman]

Hard Times could have continued for a while longer, the various safe areas could have consolidated their sector, and what you would have by 1200 would be lots of insular pocket empires all with a claim to founding the new Imperium.

Between each of these you would have a couple of sectors worth of worlds that could be explored, re-contacted, hide secrets etc.

Could be a fun setting to explore.

 

[McPerth]

Alternatively, see that without the Virus, either some factions unite against the Solomani or they would have taken large parts of the Imperium, as they were quite more powerful than any faction, even if claiming they were moving for humanitarian reasons, to finish with the anarchy of the Wilds and to save the civilization there.

It would be even posible many of those regions wellcome them if they bought stability and trade to the zone.

Depending on who wins the internal Solomani disputes, it could bring a "Dark Empire" setting, with Solomani being the dominant caste and all the rest being subjects (wich could also be a fun setting, IMHO).

 

[mike wightman]

There are a couple of ways of restricting the Solomani:

Hiver manipulation (are they behind the political dissent within the Solomani Confederation?)

Aslan vs Solomani (who doesn't like Man Kzin wars)

Remember those mysterious rim expeditions of the Solomani? - something follows them back (or is already here)

 

[aramis]

Hard Times could have continued for a while longer, the various safe areas could have consolidated their sector, and what you would have by 1200 would be lots of insular pocket empires all with a claim to founding the new Imperium.

Between each of these you would have a couple of sectors worth of worlds that could be explored, re-contacted, hide secrets etc.

Could be a fun setting to explore.

I wouldn't call 7-8 "lots" on the scale we're talking.
You'd have the following groups for certain:

• Regency
• Ziru Sirkaa (Vland)
• Illelish
• Lucan's Imperium
• Margaret's Imperium
• Antares
• Solomani Confederation

You might also have

• Stephon
• Gateway Domain
• Assorted homeworlds
• Aslan Enclaves in the Marches and along the Confed's new border.

The confed likely has returned to its former size. The Vegans may or may not be an insular faction of their own. Same for the Geonee and Suerrat homeworlds.

Antares is unlikely to return to "The Imperium" - it's already going its own way by 1120. Vland isn't going to join anyone else, but might be willing to absorb others, and it does have agents in every other area.

 

[McPerth]

There are a couple of ways of restricting the Solomani:

Hiver manipulation (are they behind the political dissent within the Solomani Confederation?)

Aslan vs Solomani (who doesn't like Man Kzin wars)

Remember those mysterious rim expeditions of the Solomani? - something follows them back (or is already here)

I didn't say it would be a foregone conclusión, just one alternative.

You forgot: in the view of the Solomani thread, some Imperial factions unite against them (e.g. Margaret, Vilani, Antares and Craig, while a coup in Capital deposes Lucan before the Solomani occupy the whole Imperium).

There aree lots of possibilities, even one side winning the War and reuniting the Imperium, what I said was only one more of them...

 

[McPerth]

Antares is unlikely to return to "The Imperium" - it's already going its own way by 1120. Vland isn't going to join anyone else, but might be willing to absorb others, and it does have agents in every other area.

I disagree in your view here. As I see it, both Antares and Daibei seceded because they see Lucan as a mad, not because anti-imperial feelings, and my take is they would rejoin it should it begin to unite again.

Afer all, in both cases the main reason to secede was their own security, as theyr fleets would be moved if they didn't, and this same reason (security) will be the one to rejoin it. Both have great dangers (Vargr and Solomani) at their doors, and I guess they would feel more secure as part of a reformed Imperium.

 

[robject]

I was curious about what direction Traveller TNE might have taken if the "Virus" had never happened and the Rebellion played its self out to some logical conclusion (Margaret, Dulinor, Stephrons clone or another wins)

Could TNE have been better off without the virus or was it necessary to destroy everything that way?

This would be a logical extension of GURPS' timeline, right?

 

[Golan2072]

The Solomani would have learned the lessons of the Rule of Man and be careful not to over-expand. That is, they'll double the size of their confederacy, to the size of the old Sphere or a little more, then stop. Then they'll be willing to sign cease-fire accords with any Imperial faction willing to do so. But they'll do so from a position of strength - especially if their victories would have been easy. Heck, they now have Terra back - their sacred homeworld! They have "what is rightfully theirs". Now euphoria takes place, the Party is lauded as practically invincible, and the Solomani military worshipped religiously.

Of course, this leads to a vastly inflated ego, which, in turn, leads to complacency. Then, in a few years, maybe a decade or two, the Aslan join forces with one or more ex-Imperial factions for a surprise attack on the overconfident Confederacy. The Solomani would probably win the war, but at a high cost, and their ego would be shattered. Might have political repercussions in the Confederacy...

 

[rancke]

This would be a logical extension of GURPS' timeline, right?

No, the GTU had no Rebellion at all.


Hans

 

[epicenter00]

I'd hazard to say that 1248: Out of Darkness was for all intents and purposes this exact thing, save for a few token appearances of Virus-descended AI.

From the setup in Rebellion and Hard Times, things would have stagnated into Safes.

While the Solomani were technically the most powerful human state, judging from the TNS briefs after some dramatic early gains, all they did was lose. They couldn't even win a battle against the distracted, exhausted fragments of the Imperium. Margaret, Craig, Lucan all pretty much beat the Solomani back with like their big toe during a boxing match with the others. From this I gather, the Solomani weren't really powerful at all; GDW seemed content to make them the fall guy to set up any event in the rimward parts of the Rebellion, no matter how minor.

Similarly, many other threats to the Imperium had already solved themselves by then: The Zhodani were having some sort of "mysterious" civil war as well according to TNS. The ihatei fleets were pretty awful for the Marches, but even going by the analysis in the TNS posts, Norris seemed to have a solution for it. The K'kree were too far to ever be a threat, and even the exhausted Lucan faction was able to hand them defeats. I guess this leaves the Hivers who were the new golden boy of Traveller alien races (perhaps due to the influence of the X-Files as "conspiracies" were a big deal back then), so perhaps they would have done something, but I can't imagine the Hivers not liking a balkanized, less powerful humanity on their borders.

As for the devastation of the Imperium, that was already deep underway by 1130 in Hard Times. I really don't think even 50 or a 100 years of rebuilding would have turned things around. While the Virus is blamed as "destroying the Imperium" it didn't, really. Most of the Imperium was already gone due the events of the Rebellion and the Hard Times. What the Virus did was wipe out the Safes. So ... yeah. 1248, I should think. Except earlier.

 

[aramis]

I disagree in your view here. As I see it, both Antares and Daibei seceded because they see Lucan as a mad, not because anti-imperial feelings, and my take is they would rejoin it should it begin to unite again.

Afer all, in both cases the main reason to secede was their own security, as theyr fleets would be moved if they didn't, and this same reason (security) will be the one to rejoin it. Both have great dangers (Vargr and Solomani) at their doors, and I guess they would feel more secure as part of a reformed Imperium.

Brzk leaves because the moot rebuffs him when he suggests himself as a viable alternative to Lucan the Mad (shortly before Lucan bans the moot, I assume). He takes his whole sector with him. He's not upset just with Lucan, he's upset with the whole bloody moot.

 

[Lycanorukke]

It would depend on when the timeline diverged. But speculating...

If Dulinor never went to Omicron and let Virus loose, he probably would have taken the throne with the Coronation fleet. Though considering the state of the Imperium at that point, he would have added a new meaning to 'Phyrric Victory'. My name is Ozymandius indeed....

'Real Strephon' would be long gone. The only reason he lasted as long as he did is because Dulinor and Lucan had better things to do.

Brzk wasn't doing too badly. Playing nice with the Julians meant he would have a trading partner, a Vargr shield and defences. His problems would mainly be internal racial ones (Humans vs Vargr).

Margaret would be treading closely to following in the footsteps of Marie Antoinette. Happily oblivious to problems as long as the trains run on time and rather blase about slavery if her friends and business associates are the ones doing it. The only reason she was even a contender is because of the magical cadre of psionic ninjas called IRIS (who had the capacity to pull entire fleets out of their posteriors if needed).

The Solies appeared to be as incompetent as ever and went nowhere. Even with 5 sectors of 'Safe' they managed to get continiously spanked by a few worlds in the Vegan district and the Daibei subsector. I they can't even manage that, then forget their delusions of Empire of Man mk2.

The K'Kree tried a bit of gunship diplomacy during the rebellion (in Survival Margin TAS news IIRC) and got spanked. If even a crippled Imperium can give them a hiding they wouldn't be much problem.

The Aslan could be interesting, especially if Craig is paying the Ihatei as mercs. What will Craig do when the bill comes due once the fighting stops. They probably wont poke the Sollis as that would cause the Solis to band together.

Norris would be in a bind. Without them being the 'sole survivors' things would get messy - he could be found out being a fake and blackmailed. A good chunk of the nobles would support the new emperor so his reforms would never happen. Vargr and Aslan would say 'Hmmm, nice land/loot you have there'. And then when a crapload of Zhodani start swarming in...

The Hivers would all be claiming that it ws their manipulaton when brought down the Imperium, while the Sword Worlds would stomp Darrians into mush (GM fiat - because I dont like them :devil when the star trigger is found to be a load of crap (again).

And then you have the autonomous districts/pocket empires popping up everywhere in the outlands/wilds who probably wont be to pleased to become part of a broken Imperium who abandoned them.

 

[aramis]

FYI, canonically, Real Strephon was indeed the real Strephon. (Survival Margin.) He even endorses Norris' self-advancement. (p. 52) And he's still alive as of 179-1126. Norris is convinced enough he's real (p 53).

Brzk dies in a station accident before the virus can get to him, in 1129.

Dulinor is, by the time he gets to Capital, despondent.... and is somewhat grim before the virus. And the people of Capital want him dead. Part of that is the coronation fleet being down to 75% before he gets there.

-----=====-----​

Sans Virus, Brzk dies anyway, and the League is in the same disarray it was when virus hits.

Lucan is killed during the arrival of the Coronation Fleet.

Dulinor makes it to capital, and gets killed by angry mobs, rather than a virused combine.

If you want a less devastatingly depressing outcome, you have to change further back than just not releasing the Virus. The players still in action in 1130 are Strephon, Avery, Norris, Margaret, Craig, and the non-imperials.

 

[savage]

The Solomani would have taken the majority of the Rimward systems. Margaret and the Aslan would have been locked in a long term war with them. Giving up her Fornast and Antares she walks away with 2 sectors.

Antares would have declared neutrality. Eventually accepted as a client state of the Julian Protectorate.

Lucan and Dulinor would have locked in long term attrition by this point. Since, Rebellion resources of Dulinor we're questionable at best. I'd suggest Lucan's 7 front war would have done the same. Each slipping into 2 1/2 sector empires at best.

Stephon would have conceded to Vland. Vland would have determined he was the Real Stephon and declared the 4th Imperium, but remained conservative restoring a 4+ sector empire, as Stephon slowly slipped away, Avery becomes Shadow Emperor.

Daibei becomes a pocket empire at best. Perhaps a bridge between Margaret and the Aslan.

K'Kree would have never attacked no reason too. Humanities/meat eaters are killing themselves.

Vargr's invasion would run its course and collapse vs Vland.

Without Avery, Norris would have consolidated, given up the 5 sisters to Sword Worlds which would also take the Border Worlds. However, he would have tried to take back Glisten and maintain Deneb.

Zhodani would have looked to greener pastures like rimward sectors or weak Vargr states, if the Empress wave didn't give them a nervous breakdown.

1248. With no RC, Hivers attempt to establish trade treaties starting with Margaret's Domain.

 

[Lycanorukke]

FYI, canonically, Real Strephon was indeed the real Strephon. (Survival Margin.) He even endorses Norris' self-advancement. (p. 52) And he's still alive as of 179-1126. Norris is convinced enough he's real (p 53).

I know. But before Arrival Vengance and SM I vaguely remember that he actually was slated as a robot/android and was retconned to be the real one. Around the same time the 'mysterious problem coreward' switched from the Primordials/Sparklies to the EW.

Brzk dies in a station accident before the virus can get to him, in 1129.

I though it was terrorists who blew the stations reactor?

 

[Peter Newman]

I think that without Virus much of the Imperium would have been overrun by other polities. As the war raged on the forces of the various factions gradually got weaker and weaker. The less they are able to defend themselves and their territories the more tempting a target they are for their neighbors.

Many Vargr follow the old rule that "If it is not tied down, it is mine. If I can pry it up, it is not tied down." Aslan have always been expansionistic. Solomani are expansionistic. Zhodhani are somewhat expansionistic. Hivers are culturally expansionistic, as we see in the Hive Federation and in TNE. K'kree are pretty militant and have been held back only by their lower TL and their claustrophobia.

 

[savage]

I know. But before Arrival Vengance and SM I vaguely remember that he actually was slated as a robot/android and was retconned to be the real one. Around the same time the 'mysterious problem coreward' switched from the Primordials/Sparklies to the EW.



I though it was terrorists who blew the stations reactor?

In Traveller's Digest 09, Stephon whimsically asks the cost of a robot that looks like himself. He is assassinated shortly after the discussion. This lead to the rumor. The double theory was more accepted.

Later products describe a Stephon tortured by sleepless nights and the mistakes he made.

 

[whulorigan]

In Traveller's Digest 09, Stephon whimsically asks the cost of a robot that looks like himself. He is assassinated shortly after the discussion. This lead to the rumor. The double theory was more accepted.

Later products describe a Stephon tortured by sleepless nights and the mistakes he made.

IIRC, the events of the "Tour of the Imperium" campaign in the DGP:TDs with Dr. Krenstein's party are supposed to be a journal-log of events taking place ca 1103. While the Assassination on Capital adventure does appear in TD#9, it takes place more than a decade after Dr. Krenstein & Party receiving their Knighthoods in the Order of the Emperor's Guard from Emperor Strephon.

So there would be time to have ordered and received a "pseudo-bio" copy of the Emperor for the Imperial Palace, if Strephon was so inclined.

 

[Hyphen]

Is Bill (Whipsnade) around?

Maybe someone could post a link to his "Wounded Colossus" timeline.