What is a Naval Base?

[rancke]

True, that's how Depots are described in MT:RSB, but, IMHO, that would mean all of them should have starport A, gov 6 (military rule) and TL 15, and that's not true.

And a suitable population, don't forget, neither too high nor too low.

You know, since text is generally held to trump rules, maybe this would persuade Marc Miller to retcon all the depots. Don? Rob? Any chance either of you would consider it worth suggesting it to him?

As noted on an earlier post, 3 Depots are shown as with starport B, one of them as C and one as D.

About governement, only 3 of them are gov 6. For systems fully under IN control I find quite hard to understand other kinds of governments (unless we understand the IN and Marine portions as gov 7 :devil

About TL, only 5 depots are TL 15, one of them (Deneb) TL 16, what I can understand, as a lot of R&D is conducted there, but the rest are under TL 15 (and as low as TL6), and again I find quite hard to understand how IN fleets may be served there or R&D can be conducted there for IN.

So, once again, information seems contradictory, as the description of the Depots doesn't (IMHO) match at all with their UWP.

One might almost get the unworthy suspicion that the people who produced the UWPs failed to vet them before publishing.

One thing I disagree with: That the Depot in Deneb would be TL 16 when none of the others are. A TL of 16 doesn't just indicate that they can make a prototype TL 16 widget or two. It means they can produce fully TL 16 ships in quantity. TL 16 hulls, TL 16 drives and power plants, TL 16 weapons, etc., etc.. We have a canonical statement about TL 15 being the highest available to the Imperium in 1105. Between then and the date of the Deneb UWPs (1117), it is just concievable that the Imperial Navy have accumulated sufficient breakthroughs to construct the infrastructure to build TL 16 ships (not likely, but just concievable). But if it had, I'd expect the depots in the Imperial core to be the first to be upgraded. Yes, even if the Deneb Depot made all the breakthroughs (another extremely iffy assumption), it would still be tinkering with prototypes while the money to build TL 16 shipyards was being poured into the depots in Core and the neighboring sectors. (Unless, of course, every Imperial depot were being upgraded simultaneously, in which case Deneb Depot still wouldn't be the only TL 16 depot for more than a few months. I suppose 001-1117 might just happen to be in one of those months).


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

That's one way of seeing it. My particular view is that what is called repairs in FFW are in fact replacements, so, a reduced CruDron would mean in fact that some of the cruisers were lost, and the RUs are new cruisers to replce them and bringing the CruDron to full strenght ...

It's more likely to be a bit from Column A, a bit from Column B. High Guard combat involving meson spinals is rather deadly - one can see chunks of the fleet not coming home from that at all; they'd need to be replaced. Combat involving missile batteries is on a different level - your ship's likely to find itself stripped of offensive weapons, essentially rendered impotent while retaining the ability to maneuver and jump; SDBs will be exclusively attacking you this way, and a fair chunk of a fleet's firepower is in missiles as well. A base repair for this kind of damage should have your ship back in fighting trim in reasonable time. High Guard allows temporary repairs, but it makes it clear that you have to take the ship back to a base for permanent repairs - the field repairs are not permanent fixes.

 

[mike wightman]

And a suitable population, don't forget, neither too high nor too low.

You know, since text is generally held to trump rules, maybe this would persuade Marc Miller to retcon all the depots. Don? Rob? Any chance either of you would consider it worth suggesting it to him?

That is an excellent idea.

One might almost get the unworthy suspicion that the people who produced the UWPs failed to vet them before publishing.

Must.... resist.... temptation...

One thing I disagree with: That the Depot in Deneb would be TL 16 when none of the others are. A TL of 16 doesn't just indicate that they can make a prototype TL 16 widget or two. It means they can produce fully TL 16 ships in quantity. TL 16 hulls, TL 16 drives and power plants, TL 16 weapons, etc., etc.. We have a canonical statement about TL 15 being the highest available to the Imperium in 1105. Between then and the date of the Deneb UWPs (1117), it is just concievable that the Imperial Navy have accumulated sufficient breakthroughs to construct the infrastructure to build TL 16 ships (not likely, but just concievable). But if it had, I'd expect the depots in the Imperial core to be the first to be upgraded. Yes, even if the Deneb Depot made all the breakthroughs (another extremely iffy assumption), it would still be tinkering with prototypes while the money to build TL 16 shipyards was being poured into the depots in Core and the neighboring sectors. (Unless, of course, every Imperial depot were being upgraded simultaneously, in which case Deneb Depot still wouldn't be the only TL 16 depot for more than a few months. I suppose 001-1117 might just happen to be in one of those months).


Hans

I agree with this completely as well.

One of the gravest errors DGP made, and GDW allowed them to get away with, was the sudden appearance of so many TL16 Imperial worlds. Not just the depot mentioned, but in some sectors you have high pop, industrialised TL16 worlds. A bit odd that Imperial research stations are doing cutting edge research into antimatter, matter transport etc when there are already dozens of worlds mass producing these technologies

Hit them with the retcon hammer and make them all go away.

 

[MCEvans]

How cannon is the Paranoia Press stuff
Because in Vanguard Reaches there is 1 TL 16 & 3 TL 17 (1 Zho & 1 Imp)
and Beyond has 8 that are at least TL 16

IF these are full cannon then Deneb Depot at TL 16 would be natural be closer to these higher tech areas and having upgrades move form there

If not back to the previous discussions :devil:

 

[Dragoner]

The higher TL stuff is what interests me in T5 and Mongoose, low TL is boring, I wouldn't buy it as a GM.

 

[McPerth]

And a suitable population, don't forget, neither too high nor too low.

Here we enter again into the discussion about if the people in temporary assignment to a naval base (Depot in this case) is counted against the world census...

One thing I disagree with: That the Depot in Deneb would be TL 16 when none of the others are.

Pehaps I didn't explain myself as well as I intended...

What I meant is that it's easier for me to believe one (or some, as I agree with you) depot to be TL16 than having one at TL12 (not to say the ones at TL 6 or 7). Of course, I'd find more logical that if only one is at TL16 it should be in the core, not a peripherical one...

 

[McPerth]

It's more likely to be a bit from Column A, a bit from Column B. High Guard combat involving meson spinals is rather deadly - one can see chunks of the fleet not coming home from that at all; they'd need to be replaced. Combat involving missile batteries is on a different level - your ship's likely to find itself stripped of offensive weapons, essentially rendered impotent while retaining the ability to maneuver and jump; SDBs will be exclusively attacking you this way, and a fair chunk of a fleet's firepower is in missiles as well. A base repair for this kind of damage should have your ship back in fighting trim in reasonable time. High Guard allows temporary repairs, but it makes it clear that you have to take the ship back to a base for permanent repairs - the field repairs are not permanent fixes.

I wouldn't say HG combat involving meson spinals is deadly. Crippling, yes, deadly, not.

As I've told in several other threads, the more likely result in a HG blattle involving meson spinals is just a few truly destroyed (or not worth repairing) ships and many crippled or disabled ones to capture (unless scuttled) by the one that keeps the 'battlefield', and easily repairable in less than 8 weeks (according TCS repair times) once they reach a starport capable to repair them.

As HG rules stand, the only way to truly destroy a ship beyond repair is the ship vaporized critical result, which will occur only once in 36 criticals, all other results (fuel tanks shattered, out of fuel or crew, computers out, PP out, etc...) crippling the ship but leaving it easy repairable as told above.

Off course, unless you're fighting in a system where you can repair them, or you take ships capable to repair along with your fleet (probable, but no canon reference to them, nor rules to build them, AFAIK), you'll need recovery ships (again no canon reference to them) to take those crippled ships to a starport to repair them. This would be easy if the crippled ships are BRs and you have tenders in system (even if that might mean to leave some of your own BRs stranded in position for a while), but if what you want to recovery is a 200 kdton BB, things get a little harder...

And if the damage is done by missiles, all said keeps true, only a little easier to repair the ships, as they involve quite a few less criticals.

 

[Gray Pennell]

When I think WWII bases navies I always think of the movies In Harms Way and They Were Expandable. In these movies we see forward bases that are obviously not equal in anyway to Pearl Harbor or a State side naval shipyard in technology or capability. So low tech depot etc are possible you just cant fix everything or fix it very well or fix it fast. The base itself might be tech level 6 ie tarmac and hangers with non nuclear power sources a Caterpillar type cranes etc. Tech level 16 could be autonomous and or robotic fusion orbital stations with just a few engineers running around watching the details and fixing equipment.

As for dependents lord knows. I spent 20 years as one and the move every 4 years was hard enough on my mother so the caravan idea might be a bit much for dependents but you could have camp followers. If you do the caravan than everything including schools etc have to come with it.

Its up to your imagination.

 

[mike wightman]

I wouldn't say HG combat involving meson spinals is deadly. Crippling, yes, deadly, not.

.

It's deadly for the crew.

The crew hits produced by the internal explosion table plus the often forgotten multiple crew hits from the radiation damage table from a spinal J means there is probably no one left alive anyway

 

[far-trader]

As for dependents lord knows. I spent 20 years as one and the move every 4 years was hard enough on my mother so the caravan idea might be a bit much for dependents but you could have camp followers. If you do the caravan than everything including schools etc have to come with it.

Yep, that was a big part of my idea, stability for the families of the services.

Pretty much cradle to grave if they desired it. Instead of constantly packing up and moving house, settling into a new community, making new friends, you would be (usually) in one fleet your whole service life, the family would have the same home, the kids would be in the same school, and keep the same friends as they grew up. You might move to a bigger home, or expand your home if your family grows. Kids could grow up, attend the naval college, and go right into a naval career in the same fleet. And upon retiring from active service they could take a position as crew of one of the Strip ships until they wanted to retire entirely, and then they'd move into one of the retirement homes aboard ship and still be close to all their lifelong friends and family.

 

[rancke]

Here we enter again into the discussion about if the people in temporary assignment to a naval base (Depot in this case) is counted against the world census...

If they aren't, the UWP should be E-SAH000-0. (SAH = Size, Atmosphere, Hydrographics).

Remember the description McEvans quoted:

Just some notes on Depots-
They are the system, there are no 'locals' just Naval personnel and dependents some Marines and other Military personnel.

Designed to train and support a sector's fleet or more (Deneb Depot has to support most everything in the Domain, that is almost two full sectors) o:
Other than Active Duty Fleets or Squadrons that move in and out, it has 3 'fleets' of its own, Training, Defense and Mothball.

most of this is from MT:RSB

(Emphasis mine).​

No locals to run a civilian starport with ships built for civilians, annual maintenance, fuel, and TAS hostel (No need for it either, since there is no trade and no traffic), no local population, no local government, no local law level, no local infrastructure.

Saying that the transients don't count but their government, law, and infrastructure does is trying to have it both ways. This one is a dichotomy. Either it all counts or none of it counts.


Hans

 

[Gray Pennell]

Yep, that was a big part of my idea, stability for the families of the services.

Pretty much cradle to grave if they desired it. Instead of constantly packing up and moving house, settling into a new community, making new friends, you would be (usually) in one fleet your whole service life, the family would have the same home, the kids would be in the same school, and keep the same friends as they grew up. You might move to a bigger home, or expand your home if your family grows. Kids could grow up, attend the naval college, and go right into a naval career in the same fleet. And upon retiring from active service they could take a position as crew of one of the Strip ships until they wanted to retire entirely, and then they'd move into one of the retirement homes aboard ship and still be close to all their lifelong friends and family.

I would have issue with staying with one fleet idea. Frist there is the issue of internal strive. Overtime cliques will become more important than command structure. This brings in the second question of the fleets loyalty. This type of thought leads to the barracks wars. The Imperium would definitely want to prevent another round of this.

Than again it would be an excellent background addition to the MGT wars. Maybe the Spinward March fleets were brought together with these caravans right after the war or even during because of needs to evacuate the dependents. After the war this informal procedure become unofficial procedure. By the time MGT if you play that universe these people had become loyal to Norris the "Grandfather" of the fleet.

 

[mbrinkhues]

I wouldn't say HG combat involving meson spinals is deadly. Crippling, yes, deadly, not.

As I've told in several other threads, the more likely result in a HG blattle involving meson spinals is just a few truly destroyed (or not worth repairing) ships and many crippled or disabled ones to capture (unless scuttled) by the one that keeps the 'battlefield', and easily repairable in less than 8 weeks (according TCS repair times) once they reach a starport capable to repair them.

As HG rules stand, the only way to truly destroy a ship beyond repair is the ship vaporized critical result, which will occur only once in 36 criticals, all other results (fuel tanks shattered, out of fuel or crew, computers out, PP out, etc...) crippling the ship but leaving it easy repairable as told above.

Off course, unless you're fighting in a system where you can repair them, or you take ships capable to repair along with your fleet (probable, but no canon reference to them, nor rules to build them, AFAIK), you'll need recovery ships (again no canon reference to them) to take those crippled ships to a starport to repair them. This would be easy if the crippled ships are BRs and you have tenders in system (even if that might mean to leave some of your own BRs stranded in position for a while), but if what you want to recovery is a 200 kdton BB, things get a little harder...

And if the damage is done by missiles, all said keeps true, only a little easier to repair the ships, as they involve quite a few less criticals.

Mongoose Traveller has the rules and equipment needed to build repair and recovery ships, same IIRC for GT. And I guess TNE could do as well, the Clippers are basically "recovery ships" and the rules should allow that.

Sector Fleet mentiones floating docks and recovery ships and since that it official 3I material from the licence holder the univers DOES have them. We are not given stats but they definitly exist. I still do not like the MgT chargen and rules set but their rules-independent supplements are useful.

 

[McPerth]

It's deadly for the crew.

The crew hits produced by the internal explosion table plus the often forgotten multiple crew hits from the radiation damage table from a spinal J means there is probably no one left alive anyway

I didn't forget them, I just assumed that you used the rules errata about crew sections, so that 4-5 crew hits don't leave your BB uncrewed...

In HG rules as they stand, without errata nor changes, you're right, crew loss is another frequent crippling for the ships.

Anyway, this will be another kind of leaving the ship for capture for the one who holds the 'field', and not even chance to scuttle in this case.

 

[McPerth]

Mongoose Traveller has the rules and equipment needed to build repair and recovery ships, same IIRC for GT. And I guess TNE could do as well, the Clippers are basically "recovery ships" and the rules should allow that.

Sector Fleet mentiones floating docks and recovery ships and since that it official 3I material from the licence holder the univers DOES have them. We are not given stats but they definitly exist. I still do not like the MgT chargen and rules set but their rules-independent supplements are useful.

In MgT traveller the situation changes radically. There ships are truly destroyed (or rendered beyond repair) by hull and structure hits, instead of being just crippled but repairable in 8 weeks (at most) as HG. I cannot tell about GT not TNE, as I've never been involved in those versions.

 

[Dragoner]

As for dependents lord knows. I spent 20 years as one and the move every 4 years was hard enough on my mother so the caravan idea might be a bit much for dependents but you could have camp followers. If you do the caravan than everything including schools etc have to come with it.

Its up to your imagination.

Every four? I could have only been so lucky, sometimes it was only two and sometimes Dad was gone for a year or more.

Remember the box? Here is the one box for all your stuff...

 

[Gray Pennell]

I was kinda of lucky my dad was Air Force worked in Post Attack Command doing repair on satellite communications and Air Force 1s communications so he wasnt needed to be mobile. Though when he did have to pack like during the Polish Solidarity movement it got kinda of scary. If he went off to war it ment defcon 2.

 

[Dragoner]

Mine was Army Intelligence, then just Intelligence, always some Headquarters - Headquarters Detachment, so if there was something going on, he was usually sent there but he couldn't say where, the KGB harassed my sister at Bryn Mawr; later I put two and two together, like the big box of dates he brought home in '73.

 

[mike wightman]

I didn't forget them, I just assumed that you used the rules errata about crew sections, so that 4-5 crew hits don't leave your BB uncrewed...

In HG rules as they stand, without errata nor changes, you're right, crew loss is another frequent crippling for the ships.

Anyway, this will be another kind of leaving the ship for capture for the one who holds the 'field', and not even chance to scuttle in this case.

Nope, I don't use it because it's not in the rules as written or the TCS clarifications and the crew sections variant doesn't actually solve the problem.

It was a house rule made up because people who actually play the game noticed that crew-1 hits are effectively a mission kill unless you have a frozen watch, the new rules don't actually affect that much.

A better solution is to apply a blanket DM of -1 per crew hit on weapons fire.

 

[McPerth]

Just some notes on Depots-
They are the system, there are no 'locals' just Naval personnel and dependents some Marines and other Military personnel.
Designed to train and support a sector's fleet or more (Deneb Depot has to support most everything in the Domain, that is almost two full sectors) o:
Other than Active Duty Fleets or Squadrons that move in and out, it has 3 'fleets' of its own, Training, Defense and Mothball.

most of this is from MT:RSB

If they aren't, the UWP should be E-SAH000-0. (SAH = Size, Atmosphere, Hydrographics).

Remember the description McEvans quoted:

(Emphasis mine).​

No locals to run a civilian starport with ships built for civilians, annual maintenance, fuel, and TAS hostel (No need for it either, since there is no trade and no traffic), no local population, no local government, no local law level, no local infrastructure.

I have read McEvans post, but I'm not able to find in MT:RSB pages 33-34 (the chapter about Depots) a single reference about them being devoid of civilian inhabitants.

Even more, the last sentence in page 33 Some Imperial civil servants have lieved their whole lives without the Depot they work for ever going on alert seems, IMHO, to hint that there are civilian inhabitants there, even if they (at least most of them) work for the IN Depot.

And some IN personnel might be in long enough assignment as for not being considered transients.

Saying that the transients don't count but their government, law, and infrastructure does is trying to have it both ways. This one is a dichotomy. Either it all counts or none of it counts.

I understand you point here, and I'm a little contradictory in it. The infrastructure is, and remains, there while population doesn't. As told in other posts, I don't believe that the fact an Imperial Division (about 12-15000 people) lands in a pop 3 planet for a long garrison duty doesn't rise the pop of the planet to 4.

Also, the infrastructure (mostly starport and TL) in UWP also tells you what you can expect to find when you arrive there. E-SAH000-0 means a barren world, and that's not what you'll find in a Depot. You can get help from its starport and personnel if you need it, to give you an example, and nowhere (AFAIK) is said Depots are off limits for civilian traffic (though probably it is restricted to few zones in the system).

Should a Depot fill a gap between two mains, I guess tramp freighters will be allowed to refuel there, and probably even to trade there. It's hard for me also to believe all supplies and consumables are carried by military ships. Probably (IMHO) there are even regular civilian traffic to/from depots for personnel, mail and other cargoes.