What is a Naval Base?

[robject]

In lieu of Library Data (above), here's my SWAGs:

Depot: can support something less than 100% of a sector fleet. "Large fraction" can mean 30% to 70%, and probably isn't "half" (otherwise they'd say "half"). Suffice to say that rotation is essential for support. Consider that, for the Fifth Frontier War, Rhylanor may have operated as a kind of Depot-like thing, in a way.

Naval Base: small ones can support a light squadron of small Big Ships; big ones can support a heavy squadron of Dreadnoughts.
- It just doesn't seem reasonable that a Naval Base can't support even one of the units of the Imperial Navy. But argue with me.
- Aramis' tiny surface naval base belies orbital facilities for a CruRon; this may be the norm.

Way Station: Capable of supporting one light (i.e. 10,000 ton ships) CruRon.
- In this respect, the orbital Naval Base over Aramis is bigger than a Scout Way Station!

Scout Base: Capable of supporting up to a squadron of Small Ships.

Xboat Station: Transmission towers. Also has facilities for replacement crew, and fuel for support shuttles.

 

[mike wightman]

Nope

Any Naval base can refuel/rearm/repair any fleet that calls there - period.

Otherwise you are going to have to go back through the Atlas of the Imperium and come up with designations for different sizes of Naval base.

 

[far-trader]

Nope

Any Naval base can refuel/rearm/repair any fleet that calls there - period.

Which is (shameless plug ) one to the issues my idea of a Strip Fleet (see the http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=27304 thread... page 7+) addresses. Stripping the bulk of the fleet support requirements from the local UWP and making the Naval Bases more independent. So even the small (low Pop) low tech worlds with Naval Bases can support any fleet showing up.

 

[robject]

Any Naval base can refuel/rearm/repair any fleet that calls there - period.

Doesn't seem to follow from Library Data; it implies that all Naval Bases are bigger than Depots.

 

[mike wightman]

Nah, a depot can handle an entire sector fleet

A naval base has to support any fleet that calls there otherwise you will need different designation letters for different sizes of naval base, and you will need to alter the system generation tables to allow for the different sizes of naval base.

The FFW rules are pretty clear - any and all naval bases on the map are equivalent. S:9 supports this by not mentioning small bases vs large bases.

I admit it flies in the face of reason, as others have pointed out there are probably naval bases whose populations would have to exceed the local planetary population code.

But how else does the Imperium provide resupply and refit to a fleet without it rotating to one of your proposed large naval bases? How does a fleet refuel at a small naval base - you'd need a re-write of the FFW rules for a start.

 

[mike wightman]

Which is (shameless plug ) one to the issues my idea of a Strip Fleet (see the http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=27304 thread... page 7+) addresses. Stripping the bulk of the fleet support requirements from the local UWP and making the Naval Bases more independent. So even the small (low Pop) low tech worlds with Naval Bases can support any fleet showing up.

I've already said I like the idea - but probably for the wrong reason.

It makes me think that perhaps we could re-imagine what the Imperial culture is really like, what is this TL15 society like from a day to day perspective.

What if the bulk of Imperial citizens actually live in these space based cities - we know that the Imperium actually controls very few planets directly, and that while planatary populations are technically Imperial citizens those rights only really kick in at the starport and beyond the 100d limit.

Suddenly the Imperium isn't the USA in space it has become, but it becomes a truly different, almost alien society compared to our quaint TL7.5 society.

 

[robject]

Nah, a depot can handle an entire sector fleet

A naval base has to support any fleet that calls there otherwise you will need different designation letters for different sizes of naval base, and you will need to alter the system generation tables to allow for the different sizes of naval base.

The FFW rules are pretty clear - any and all naval bases on the map are equivalent. S:9 supports this by not mentioning small bases vs large bases.

I understand. However, what is the elapsed time for one round of the game?

I admit it flies in the face of reason, as others have pointed out there are probably naval bases whose populations would have to exceed the local planetary population code.

This is only an interesting logistics problem with a notational footnote. It is not a show stopper.

But how else does the Imperium provide resupply and refit to a fleet without it rotating to one of your proposed large naval bases? How does a fleet refuel at a small naval base - you'd need a re-write of the FFW rules for a start.

Ah, now we come to the crux of the argument. FFW assumes a certain level of dependence and performance, therefore the OTU must be this way. I understand, but I tend to think the wargames have some wiggle room, some necessary abstraction, some generalizing assumptions. After all, their counters typically only represent spine strength, don't they?

 

[far-trader]

I've already said I like the idea - but probably for the wrong reason.

Nope, that's just another one of the right reasons

In fact it was the societal difference idea that was the first germ of me posting it, and probably my favored reason as well. It's probably been kicking around in my subconscious for ages, I might even have done a little work on it at one time, or started.

The rest of the reason(ing)s are just gravy

I'm tempted to, and want to, expand on and fully realize the idea... but I'm not sure I have the attentio... SHINEY!!

 

[Dragoner]

One size fits all is bad for the game: it's an unnecessary unrealistic assumption and stifles creativity.

 

[rancke]

A naval base has to support any fleet that calls there otherwise you will need different designation letters for different sizes of naval base, and you will need to alter the system generation tables to allow for the different sizes of naval base.

On the contrary, with naval bases (excuse me, Naval Bases) being assigned randomly and for reasons almost completely unrelated to strategic issues[*], it is much better that some actual intelligent agency is involved in taking things from there, making Naval Bases on remote worlds of limited strategic value small and bases located on high-tech, high-population worlds of considerable strategic value big.

[*] I'll admit that class A and B starports are likelier to be in systems with greater strategic importance, but it's a fairly tenuous connection, especially since starport classes and population sizes are generated completely without any correlation).​

The FFW rules are pretty clear - any and all naval bases on the map are equivalent. S:9 supports this by not mentioning small bases vs large bases.

I've already dealt with the first part. The second part is at best supporting evidence; it's definitely not proof of any kind.

That being said, I think that Naval Bases very probably are able to handle large fleets. I think that's what make them worth of the designation. Smaller navy facilites would be known by their proper (Imperial naval parlance) designation, whatever that may be (baselets ), even if someone from the 21st Century would have called them bases too.

I admit it flies in the face of reason, as others have pointed out there are probably naval bases whose populations would have to exceed the local planetary population code.

But how else does the Imperium provide resupply and refit to a fleet without it rotating to one of your proposed large naval bases? How does a fleet refuel at a small naval base - you'd need a re-write of the FFW rules for a start.

No, you don't. (As I pointed out earlier). The rules for a boardgame are not even as close to "reality" as the rules for a paper&pencil wargame, much less the rules for a role-playing game -- and the rules for an roleplaying game can be pretty far from "reality" in themselves.

As I said before, if (assuming for purposes of argument) most naval bases can refuel a fleet and only a few places without naval bases can do so, it's perfectly reasonable for a boardgame to simplify that "reality" to 'all bases and nowhere else'.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

One size fits all is bad for the game: it's an unnecessary unrealistic assumption and stifles creativity.

Which game? Obviously it works for FFW. I'd much prefer it for a High Guard version of FFW - makes things a good deal simpler. For role-playing, honestly the mechanics of it are so far removed from the players that it doesn't really matter: players aren't going to be counting how many dreadnoughts get fueled that day (unless you've decided to roleplay Zhodani spies for some reason), and its not going to affect whether their free trader finds fuel or not (unless the game master wants it to). So long as the base serves as a place where your ex-Navy player can hunt up rumors and contacts, it serves your game. So long as it more or less fits the description in Library Data - which allows for great leeway - it's a canon base.

So, make them all the same, or make some smallish destroyer bases and big ol' fleet bases, toss around a few huge tankers with fuel shuttles to collect and process fuel and a few giant jump-capable repair ships where needed, or don't, whatever suits your fancy. The folk in the trenches care a lot more about the bombs falling on their trenches than they do about the characteristics of the base launching the bombers.

 

[robject]

I think that's pragmatic for the games. For the role-playing game, relative sizes don't matter: a naval base is there for the players to interact with on the character level. They may as well all the the same. For the wargame, it's an abstraction to make them all be the same, for the purposes of sanity and to make it easier to create a game balance.



Put another way: when we do strategic warfare in the Imperium, for the purposes of the game, the naval bases are equal. When we play the RPG, it doesn't matter (to the game) if they're equal or not.



In other words, that part of this thread is actually part of the other discussion about how big the Imperial Navy really is. And it looks like there's really very little light available on that topic from looking at Naval Bases.

 

[robject]

I've updated the first post with the info I've gleaned from library data and this thread so far.

 

[robject]

Thinking more about a naval base's orbital resources.

They specifically complement starport resources, for the purpose of maintaining Battle-Class Ships. In particular, this is fuel and maintenance. If (that's an IF) the starport doesn't have adequate resources for handling the Naval Base's needs, then the Naval Base itself makes up the difference with orbital elements. Otherwise there's just a minimal orbital presence for directing ships to the starport for support.

Let's suppose the 214th calls on a Naval Base for fuel. Let's pretend that that is about 2,500,000 tons of Jump-4 ships, and requires 2.6 million tons of maintenance and 1 million tons of fuel pumped in.

Actually, that's not a problem for most Class A starports. Figure maintenance is the most time consuming task, but also figure that not all ships will go in for maintenance at the same time. Assuming a third get real maintenance over a two week period, then your starport needs to flexibly handle around 5,000 tons per hour. Civilians may get delayed processing, but hey, that's a plot hook. And if you want to be conservative, then we can assume the naval base adds capability so that the system can process 10,000 tons per hour. Now we have a built-in buffer.

Compared to the maintenance done, refueling is a snap. Fuel pumps can transfer a scary amount of fuel; if you figure refueling is done with starport lighters capable of delivering 20,000 tons of fuel an hour, and you'll only need perhaps 20 of them to get the job done in a few hours (presuming the starport stores fuel nearby, for example as gigantic tethered hunks of ice, or just in big tanks).

 

[mike wightman]

There are rules in FFW for how many squadrons can be refueled in zero time by different sizes of star port.

A - 4
B - 3
C - 2
D - 1
E - none
X - none

A naval base allows for zero time refueling for every squadron in every fleet that calls.

What is truely absurd is technically you could jump every fleet in the game to the same system in a turn and refuel the entire navy

As for ship repair - none is possible until RUs are available and they are limited - so perhaps the supply convoys that are moving invisibly in the game are needed to increase the repair capability of selected bases.

 

[robject]

There are rules in FFW for how many squadrons can be refueled in zero time by different sizes of star port.

Now you've started me musing about strategic wargaming in the Far Future.

 

[mike wightman]

Welcome to my world...

I've thought about adding supply ship counters to FFW to allow for commerce raiding, and adding resource unit production for the high pop high TL worlds.

 

[MCEvans]

Just some notes on Depots-
They are the system, there are no 'locals' just Naval personnel and dependents some Marines and other Military personnel.
Designed to train and support a sector's fleet or more (Deneb Depot has to support most everything in the Domain, that is almost two full sectors) o:
Other than Active Duty Fleets or Squadrons that move in and out, it has 3 'fleets' of its own, Training, Defense and Mothball.

most of this is from MT:RSB

 

[McPerth]

As for ship repair - none is possible until RUs are available and they are limited - so perhaps the supply convoys that are moving invisibly in the game are needed to increase the repair capability of selected bases.

That's one way of seeing it. My particular view is that what is called repairs in FFW are in fact replacements, so, a reduced CruDron would mean in fact that some of the cruisers were lost, and the RUs are new cruisers to replce them and bringing the CruDron to full strenght.

Repairs, IMHO, are assumed to be made automatically in FFW, keeping most ships to full strength, though the squadrons may be reduced.

 

[McPerth]

Just some notes on Depots-
They are the system, there are no 'locals' just Naval personnel and dependents some Marines and other Military personnel.
Designed to train and support a sector's fleet or more (Deneb Depot has to support most everything in the Domain, that is almost two full sectors) o:
Other than Active Duty Fleets or Squadrons that move in and out, it has 3 'fleets' of its own, Training, Defense and Mothball.

most of this is from MT:RSB

True, that's how Depots are described in MT:RSB, but, IMHO, that would mean all of them should have starport A, gov 6 (military rule) and TL 15, and that's not true.

As noted on an earlier post, 3 Depots are shown as with starport B, one of them as C and one as D.

About governement, only 3 of them are gov 6. For systems fully under IN control I find quite hard to understand other kinds of governments (unless we understand the IN and Marine portions as gov 7 :devil

About TL, only 5 depots are TL 15, one of them (Deneb) TL 16, what I can understand, as a lot of R&D is conducted there, but the rest are under TL 15 (and as low as TL6), and again I find quite hard to understand how IN fleets may be served there or R&D can be conducted there for IN.

So, once again, information seems contradictory, as the description of the Depots doesn't (IMHO) match at all with their UWP.